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Alex Ovechkin Vs Ilya Kovalchuk

View Poll Results: Ilya Kovalchuk Vs Alex Ovechkin
Ilya Kovalchuk 145 50.88%
Alex Ovechkin 140 49.12%
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Old
11-08-2012, 09:58 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
And he'll continue to have the star power and charisma to sell season tickets and jerseys like almost no other player in the league, something no one seems to be considering here. The guy revitalized a franchise; Kovy... not so much. That's a major factor in why he's worth the extra 2.9M.
What about the Devils has convinced you that they've ever cared about the stuff you're listing here?

Kovy plays in NJ because Lou thinks he gives the Devils a better chance to win the Cup. That's the only reason.

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11-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #52
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We were two wins away from the cup in Kovys 2nd year...no coincidence.

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11-08-2012, 11:05 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Two years ago, Ovie outscored him by 25. Three years ago, it was by 24. This past year was the first time since Ovie's rookie season that he didn't outscore Kovy by double digits.

When Ovie goes back to an offensive system with a healthy Backstrom and Green, he'll go back to routinely outscoring Kovy. And he'll continue to have the star power and charisma to sell season tickets and jerseys like almost no other player in the league, something no one seems to be considering here. The guy revitalized a franchise; Kovy... not so much. That's a major factor in why he's worth the extra 2.9M.
Kind of hard for Kovy to "revitalize" a franchise that's missed the playoffs twice since he was in kindergarten.

Ovechkin took a team that hasn't made it past the second round since 1998 and turned them into.....a team that hasn't made it past the second round since 1998, but sells out their arena every game.

Congratulations, Ovy.

Kovy his team to the SCF in his second full season in New Jersey. So you can keep your merchandise and see far that takes your franchise.

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11-08-2012, 11:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
Kovi has been the better player the last 2, possibly 3 years... hard not to choose him at this point.

That being said, AO is still young enough to find his game again or elevate his game to a near level where he was before.
229 games in the last 3 seasons = 259 points and 120 goals.

234 games in the last 3 seasons = 228 points and 109 goals.

How do you make the latter the better player?

Ovechkin had 109 points in 72 games and Kovalchuk had 85 points in 76 games. How the **** do you justify Kovy being better?

The memory is short here....

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11-08-2012, 11:57 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
What about the Devils has convinced you that they've ever cared about the stuff you're listing here?

Kovy plays in NJ because Lou thinks he gives the Devils a better chance to win the Cup. That's the only reason.
True, but not every franchise has things as good as you guys. Capitals were in real trouble and Ovechkin has helped them tremendously to rejuvenate their business. There is not many players that has the *spark* to do that.

I would be willing to go and say that at this point Kovalchuk is a safer bet to win you championship. Ovechkin is the better player at their best but Kovalchuk has the work ethic and, i don't know, there just is something in Kovy that makes me think he wants to win more than most players. I know this is BS since everyone in the NHL want's to win but i just get the chills when i watch Kovy.

I's still rather have Ovechkin, but as i stated before, he needs to come back to life soon or he will drop behind Kovy.

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11-09-2012, 12:26 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
LOL!

Ovechkin isn't close to good as Kovy defensively. Kovalchuk is a positive PK player.
Kovalchuk is a good PK player, he is nothing special defensively. Since you like using +/- I guess I'll point out Kovalchuk is a career minus 110 and only has 1 career plus season.

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11-09-2012, 12:35 AM
  #57
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Relative QOC:
Ovechkin -0.360
Kovalchuk 0.533

Relative Corsi:
Ovechkin -3.4
Kovalchuk 4.1

PDO:
Ovechkin 1004
Kovalchuk 982

OZoneStart:
Ovechkin 52.7 (highest on team)
Kovalchuk 56.2 (highest forward)

I think these stats tell the tale as to who was better last year 5 on 5. It was Kovalchuk by quite a bit. In terms of special teams Kovalchuk is obviously the better PK'er by a landslide and PP.

As a player I would take Kovalchuk moving forward.

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11-09-2012, 12:48 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
229 games in the last 3 seasons = 259 points and 120 goals.

234 games in the last 3 seasons = 228 points and 109 goals.

How do you make the latter the better player?

Ovechkin had 109 points in 72 games and Kovalchuk had 85 points in 76 games. How the **** do you justify Kovy being better?

The memory is short here....
Sometimes people like to use factors other than offensive stats when evaluating a player.

That said, I'm not sure who to pick here. It hard not to vote for Ovechkin.

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11-09-2012, 12:53 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Kind of hard for Kovy to "revitalize" a franchise that's missed the playoffs twice since he was in kindergarten.

Ovechkin took a team that hasn't made it past the second round since 1998 and turned them into.....a team that hasn't made it past the second round since 1998, but sells out their arena every game.

Congratulations, Ovy.

Kovy his team to the SCF in his second full season in New Jersey. So you can keep your merchandise and see far that takes your franchise.
My point was about value to owners, from a financial standpoint. Kovy couldn't save a dying franchise in Atlanta. He didn't stop the Devils from finishing 24th in the league in attendance, and he seems to have cost the Devils their chance at resigning Parise. Ovie revitalized a franchise in a non-traditional hockey market, turning them into a team that was at the bottom of the barrel in attendance into one that's sold out every game for three years running.

As for the playoffs, you can't lay that at his feet. The guy's got the third highest playoff PPG of any active player. This is a team sport, it's not his fault that he's never had the surrounding cast or the coaching to get past the second round.

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11-09-2012, 12:55 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
229 games in the last 3 seasons = 259 points and 120 goals.

234 games in the last 3 seasons = 228 points and 109 goals.

How do you make the latter the better player?

Ovechkin had 109 points in 72 games and Kovalchuk had 85 points in 76 games. How the **** do you justify Kovy being better?

The memory is short here....
I'd prefer to know what player I am getting in the future. With most recent data Kovalchuk is clearly the better all around player and it isn't that close.

One players shot totals are remaining fairly consistent to his career average while having the worst shooting season of his career. The other's shot totals are falling off a cliff and he had an average season in terms of shooting. What does this mean? Ovechkin is clearly regressing while Kovalchuk is remaining fairly constant.

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11-09-2012, 12:57 AM
  #61
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I think Ovechkin will find his game. Kovalchuk on the other hand will go downhill from now IMO

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11-09-2012, 12:59 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniSens View Post
I think Ovechkin will find his game. Kovalchuk on the other hand will go downhill from now IMO
What is this based on? A gut feeling?

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11-09-2012, 12:59 AM
  #63
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Right this moment, I would still take Ovy, but its really close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
What is this based on? A gut feeling?
I would't go as far as saying Kovalchuk will start to decline any time soon though.

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11-09-2012, 12:59 AM
  #64
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FWIW Kovy did not cost the Devils a chance to resign Praise at all. The Devils essentially offered what Minny did but Zach had been planning to go there for a while. Had Minny not offered he said he would have resigned in NJ. As long as the Wild made an offer, though, he was going to go.

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11-09-2012, 01:06 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
What is this based on? A gut feeling?
Kovalchuk putting up a 60 point season and Ovechkin 85.

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11-09-2012, 01:15 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Kovalchuk putting up a 60 point season and Ovechkin 85.
Did I go back in time to summer 2011? I suppose Brad Richards is the better player than Elias as well?

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11-09-2012, 01:24 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
Did I go back in time to summer 2011? I suppose Brad Richards is the better player than Elias as well?
So I guess we can't make projections off of that single season but the very next single one is perfectly legit?

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11-09-2012, 01:27 AM
  #68
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As of now, Kovalchuk
Hoping to say Ovechkin in the next few years as he's my fav player out of these two.

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11-09-2012, 01:38 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
My point was about value to owners, from a financial standpoint. Kovy couldn't save a dying franchise in Atlanta. He didn't stop the Devils from finishing 24th in the league in attendance, and he seems to have cost the Devils their chance at resigning Parise. Ovie revitalized a franchise in a non-traditional hockey market, turning them into a team that was at the bottom of the barrel in attendance into one that's sold out every game for three years running.

As for the playoffs, you can't lay that at his feet. The guy's got the third highest playoff PPG of any active player. This is a team sport, it's not his fault that he's never had the surrounding cast or the coaching to get past the second round.


What a joke of a post...yeah selling out games and attendance figures are more important. So what if we are 19-24th in attendance every year, we never lost fans in the last 15 years, and its not like we have awful attendance like Phoenix Dallas or NYI, its not even close.

Mentioning Ovechkin and 'this is a team sport' is comical. I want to see Ovechkin return to form and be more responsible in games. Kovy did that when asked, and he has flourished since then.

An even bigger joke is you think Kovy is the reason why Parise went to Minny, this is borderline trolling.


Last edited by NjDevsRR: 11-09-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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11-09-2012, 01:42 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUnseenHand View Post
Sometimes people like to use factors other than offensive stats when evaluating a player.

That said, I'm not sure who to pick here. It hard not to vote for Ovechkin.
I only replied to the part where it was said that Kovy was better than OV three years a go. There is not a single poster here who would have said that 3 years a go.

Well, use what factors you want. 92 point pace for season will never trump 124 points pace season. I am not sure there is enough defense to go around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
I'd prefer to know what player I am getting in the future. With most recent data Kovalchuk is clearly the better all around player and it isn't that close.

One players shot totals are remaining fairly consistent to his career average while having the worst shooting season of his career. The other's shot totals are falling off a cliff and he had an average season in terms of shooting. What does this mean? Ovechkin is clearly regressing while Kovalchuk is remaining fairly constant.
Ovechkin has regressed, lost it or something. Not sure what. At this point it is fair to say that Kovy had better season than Ovechkin. But it is the first time that has happened. But considering that Ovechkin is showing serious signs of decline Kovalchuk is the safer bet. I will still wait for one year from Ovechkin before taking Kovalchuk.

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11-09-2012, 01:52 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
So I guess we can't make projections off of that single season but the very next single one is perfectly legit?
109 pts 5.11 s/g, 85 pts 4.64 s/g and 65 pts 3.88 s/g

85 pts 3.82 s/g, 60 pts 3.02 s/g and 83 pts 4.02 s/g

Which statline looks more like a trend and what statline looks like it had an outlier.

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11-09-2012, 01:53 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by NjDevsRR View Post


What a joke of a post...yeah selling out games and attendance figures are more important. So what if we are 19-24th in attendance every year, we never lost fans in the last 15 years, and its not like we have awful attendance like Phoenix Dallas or NYI, its not even close.

Mentioning Ovechkin and 'its a team sport' is comical. I want to see Ovechkin return to form and be more responsible in games, Kovy did that when asked and he has flourished since then.

An even bigger joke is you think Kovy is the reason why Parise went to Minny, this is borderline trolling.
Agreed, when talking about two hockey players we should not take in to account the amount of fans they draw. Truth is that Ovechkin pretty much saved the Capitals franchise. That does not make him a better player tough.

I don't get why you say Ovechkin is not a team player? You have some insight about it? He is the captain, (even if i would have not chose him, but what do i know?) and the face of the team. He has been a stellar Playoff performer and i would not consider their playoff disappointment's his fault.

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11-09-2012, 01:59 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Agreed, when talking about two hockey players we should not take in to account the amount of fans they draw. Truth is that Ovechkin pretty much saved the Capitals franchise. That does not make him a better player tough.

I don't get why you say Ovechkin is not a team player? You have some insight about it? He is the captain, (even if i would have not chose him, but what do i know?) and the face of the team. He has been a stellar Playoff performer and i would not consider their playoff disappointment's his fault.
I don't think a captain should be benched at the end of important games. I also think a captain's play should lead a team. I do not like the way he has been playing these last two seasons. The game has changed and defensemen know what Ovechkin is going to do. Instead of trying to beat guys one on one he has to play more of a system and make sure he gets the puck down deep every shift. He also needs more responsibility. I said the same exact thing about Kovy when we first acquired him. Kovy changed his game dramatically and now he compliments the entire team. I find Ovechkins play to be selfish some of the time and I think his game needs more responsibility. When Lemaire first put Kovy on the PK two seasons ago everyone thought it was a bad idea. But it proved to be great because Ilya enjoyed the extra responsibility and became a better player. Now he gets regular time on the PK and gets played in key situations late in games while protecting a lead. Kovy even said he enjoyed being on the PK and it was fun. Maybe Oates will take some of the things he learned from Lemaire and Deboer on how to coach Kovy and apply it to Ovechkin.

I would be saying the same exact thing about Kovy if he didn't change. I like Ovechkin, I want to see him succeed and play to his fullest potential.


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11-09-2012, 02:01 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Jason MacIsaac View Post
109 pts 5.11 s/g, 85 pts 4.64 s/g and 65 pts 3.88 s/g

85 pts 3.82 s/g, 60 pts 3.02 s/g and 83 pts 4.02 s/g

Which statline looks more like a trend and what statline looks like it had an outlier.
Yes, to be fair Kovy had to learn how to play with the Devils. So that might be just a bumb on his road.
I think nobody is trying to deny the fact that Ovechkin has gone downhill. Kovalchuk had a better year, but it was the first time he did it.

51,67,87,98,76,87,91,85,60,83

106,92,112,110,109,85,65

I'd say that Ovechkin has still been more consistent. Kovalchuk managed to change his game and become more valuable than just points. But he still has 4 seasons below 80 points. Ovechkin has 1.

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11-09-2012, 02:06 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by NjDevsRR View Post
I don't think a captain should be benched at the end of important games. I also think a captain's play should lead a team. I do not like the way he has been playing these last two seasons. The game has changed and defensemen know what Ovechkin is going to do. Instead of trying to beat guys one on one he has to play more of a system and make sure he gets the puck down deep every shift. He also needs more responsibility. I said the same exact thing about Kovy when we first acquired him. Kovy changed his game dramatically and now he compliments the entire team. I find Ovechkins play to be selfish some of the time and I think his game needs more responsibility. When Lemaire first put Kovy on the PK two seasons ago everyone thought it was a bad idea. But it proved to be great because Ilya enjoyed the extra responsibility and became a better player.

I would be saying the same exact thing about Kovy if he didn't change. I like Ovechkin, I want to see him succeed.
I also have the feeling that Ovechkin should not be the captain. I am not even trying to say that he should mature first. In my books the guy will never be suited for captaincy. This far the best Ovechkin has been the Ovechkin who focused on offense and goalscoring. I am not saying that he can't do the same as Kovalchuk what I am saying is that I am not sure he should. I would rather that he would go balls-2-the-walls kind of offense for as longs as he has years for that. Maybe turn around at +30 but for few years just play at his strengths and try to work on those.

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