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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part III)

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Old
10-23-2012, 10:02 AM
  #576
86Habs
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Canada won the 2002 Olympics with plenty of BIG guys on their team. Many of which you might proclaim would not "suit" well on international size rinks.

1) A 37 Mario Lemiuex who came out of retirement how many times? Had several operations, still had a bad back. Granted its super Mario, due to his experience his poise and his size he was a good fit for the team

2) Was Owen Nolan the BEST choice for team Canada? Was he the best choice for an international size rink

3) Was Joe niewuwendyk?

4) Ryan Smyth?

5) Was Shannahans style good for a bigger rink?

6) Was Eric Lindros lol... He didnt play the year before. He had health issues and his size was not exactly the best for an international rink...

The last few guys I mentioned all played about 6 games and around 1 point. Yet on a huge rink, Team Canada still won the Gold.
1) Its Mario *** Lemieux.

2) Hockey Canada locked themselves into bringing Owen Nolan because he was one of the Original 8 selections announced in the fall of 2001. He was just coming off a 40-goal season for SJ, so it seemed like a good idea at the time. My guess is that he wouldn't have been selected if he hadn't already been locked-in. Didn't distinguish himself in Salt Lake, really, and overall a poor selection.

3) Nieuwendyk was essentially the 13th forward in SLC. He's not a power forward, though. Great on faceoffs, good PKer, strong defensively, Olympic experience from '98, and still a good skater at that age. The equivalent now would be a guy like Bergeron.

4) Smyth was on fire leading up to SLC, on a 40-goal pace IIRC, and was already carving out a niche as a strong forechecker and mucker. Decent skater. Having Kevin Lowe on the management team didn't hurt (see Brewer, Eric).

5) Shanahan was relegated to 4th line duty in SLC, but I wouldn't say he played poorly. No, his style of play wasn't really suited to the international ice surface but he'd be hard to leave off the team since he was still one of our better natural wingers in an era when Canada lacked depth at the forward position. The only somewhat controversial ommission from the team was Joe Thornton.

6) Lindros wasn't really a factor in SLC, obviously. He was there based on his reputation and it probably would have been a huge embarassment to him if he had been left off the team.

Coincidentally (or not), the Lindros-Smyth-Nolan line, envisioned as our energy line, was never really a factor. Who carried the forward group? The Sakic-Gagne-Iginla line - all fantastic skaters; Theo Fleury was great, the Lemieux-Kariya-Yzerman line was great as well. Peca and Nieuwendyk played their defensive roles to perfection. So really I'd say that our "power forwards" contributed the least to the Gold medal victory.

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10-23-2012, 10:45 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
First and foremost, unlike many of you guys... i realize that Canada has a pool full of talent to choose from and most of these decisions in roster choices are FINE! They can easily compete... So lets not go around saying this is wrong and that is wrong. And i hate when people bring up Player A > Player B or what have you not realizing the true meaning behind why a player is chosen. Its not always about whose better...
I think everyone knows that Canada has a huge talent pool. Everyone wants to win though, and the best way to win is by picking the best team. Picking Heatley wouldn't completely ruin the Canadian team or anything like that, it just probably wouldn't give the best odds of winning. Seeing other people pick different players is fine, it increases discussion and makes you think of alternatives that may not have been considered.

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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Judgement,
Canadians have to stop blaming their goalies anytime they lose. Canadas entire defense was misshaped in a matter of 3 seconds.
I agree that the defence was poor leading up to the goal and it's hard to blame Luongo for the rebound after the wild shot by Kane that got deflected right in front of him. He still could have killed the play by catching the puck earlier in that sequence though, which would have helped. Luongo wasn't terrible in 2010 by any stretch, but he also didn't instill confidence in anyone that I know of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Canada won the 2002 Olympics with plenty of BIG guys on their team. Many of which you might proclaim would not "suit" well on international size rinks.
Most of those guys contributed little in 2002. Canada won that tournament in large part because of Brodeur's strong defensive play, luck in facing Belarus and a tremendous game by Sakic in the finals. In my opinion the most effective bottom 6 guy was Fleury, who just happened to be the best skater of the bunch.

Back in 2002 Canada didn't have to many options when it comes to great skaters. The top of the talent pool was filled with big bruising forwards. That's not really the case anymore, as there is more variety among the Canadian forwards. I am hopeful that Team Canada takes advantage of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Goalie-
Carey Price
Marc Andre Fluery
Cam Ward *(Reserve)


Defense
Shea Weber - Kris Letang
Drew Doughty - Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook - Duncan Keith

Reserve - Marc Staal

Forward

Stamkos - Crosby - Taveras
Nash - Toews - Richards
Perry - Getzlaf - Giroux
Staal - Seguin - Eberle

Reserve - Jamie Benn


I think thats my final choices for now
Pretty good team.

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10-23-2012, 11:57 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
Back in 2002 Canada didn't have to many options when it comes to great skaters. The top of the talent pool was filled with big bruising forwards. That's not really the case anymore, as there is more variety among the Canadian forwards. I am hopeful that Team Canada takes advantage of this.
Are you ever right. I distinctly remember sitting around with some buddies in the fall of 2001 drawing up our teams, and one of them had Jeff Friesen and Anson Carter on his roster, just to add some speed on the wings. Yikes.

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10-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #579
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Yeaaaaaaaaa... i really dk about that.

First off, you dont ever blame the goalie when there is TWO opponents having NO pressure in front of your goalie.

Second, the instant when Kane is shooting a quick wrister after turning around... Parise is screening Luongo.

Third, the shot is deflected off of Niedermeyers body in attempt to block a shot. A deflection will cause problems but when a deflection occurs and your being screened. Issues will airse

Fourth, it comes back to having two guys open in front of the net. It was bound to go in...

Judgement,
Canadians have to stop blaming their goalies anytime they lose. Canadas entire defense was misshaped in a matter of 3 seconds.


That entire situation would've been avoided had Luongo been able to catch that floater that hit his glove.

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10-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Canada won the 2002 Olympics with plenty of BIG guys on their team. Many of which you might proclaim would not "suit" well on international size rinks.

1) A 37 Mario Lemiuex who came out of retirement how many times? Had several operations, still had a bad back. Granted its super Mario, due to his experience his poise and his size he was a good fit for the team

2) Was Owen Nolan the BEST choice for team Canada? Was he the best choice for an international size rink

3) Was Joe niewuwendyk?

4) Ryan Smyth?

5) Was Shannahans style good for a bigger rink?

6) Was Eric Lindros lol... He didnt play the year before. He had health issues and his size was not exactly the best for an international rink...

The last few guys I mentioned all played about 6 games and around 1 point. Yet on a huge rink, Team Canada still won the Gold.
Iirc, 2002 was played on NHL sized rinks.

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10-23-2012, 12:52 PM
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Goalie-
Carey Price
Marc Andre Fluery
Cam Ward *(Reserve)


Defense
Shea Weber - Kris Letang
Drew Doughty - Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook - Duncan Keith

Reserve - Marc Staal

Forward

Stamkos - Crosby - Taveras
Nash - Toews - Richards
Perry - Getzlaf - Giroux
Staal - Seguin - Eberle

Reserve - Jamie Benn


I think thats my final choices for now
After many, many posts, I finally like your roster. Not Crazy about E or J Staal being on the team, but Eric certainly has game breaking ability, and Jordan is a very smart player.

Frankly Seguin hasn't done enough to be there yet. I hope he turns out great, but to me he could a Duchene type. Duchene really impressed at the start, but his lack of hockey sense limits his potential. I hope its not the case with Seguin, but he's so young its hard to tell.

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10-23-2012, 12:54 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Iirc, 2002 was played on NHL sized rinks.
No, it was international.

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10-23-2012, 01:40 PM
  #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
I'm referring to:
A) Luongo dropping a puck he should've easily caught
and
B) Luongo giving up the greasy rebound that lead to the goal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Yeaaaaaaaaa... i really dk about that.

First off, you dont ever blame the goalie when there is TWO opponents having NO pressure in front of your goalie.

Second, the instant when Kane is shooting a quick wrister after turning around... Parise is screening Luongo.

Third, the shot is deflected off of Niedermeyers body in attempt to block a shot. A deflection will cause problems but when a deflection occurs and your being screened. Issues will airse

Fourth, it comes back to having two guys open in front of the net. It was bound to go in...

Judgement,
Canadians have to stop blaming their goalies anytime they lose. Canadas entire defense was misshaped in a matter of 3 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


That entire situation would've been avoided had Luongo been able to catch that floater that hit his glove.
DyerMaker is right.

I am not sure why there are so many Luongo apologists. Canada won in spite of the man with the good hair.

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10-23-2012, 03:21 PM
  #584
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Getzlaf scored 11 goals and 57 points last year (in a full season) - that's poor production for a scoring center, and is why I'm leaving him off. What he did way back in 2004/2005 at the WJHCs is pretty much irrelevant at this point, same goes for 2008 really. If he can get back to an 80+ point pace, then I believe they'll make room for him on the team because he'll be "on", and when he's on, he's one of the best.

However, at this point he's ill-suited to move to the wing, doesn't really offer anything from a playmaking perspective that guys like Crosby, Giroux, and Tavares don't, and probably wouldn't adapt well to a bottom six type of role - he's not known as a great PKer, is only OK on faceoffs (winning % of around 50% last time I checked), and the defensive side of the game isn't bad, but its not exactly a strength of his. He was great in Vancouver for us, but those were different circumstances and he was at the top of his game then. I think we'll move in a different direction, honestly.
The entire Ducks team did poorly. It was a group effort, just as much points can be inflated with a good surrounding team it can also be deflated with a bad surrounding team. 80+ points is your criteria? Idk if Yzerman and Babcock care so much about a point standard on the team as they do in meeting some kind of quota. A certain ratio of big guys to small guys. Strength and Speed. Just because its a larger rink does not mean Getzlaf will be weaker... it may mean better things from him. Getzlaf can play in the top 6 or the bottom 6 of this roster.

He is not a lock, but lets not say the guy is off the roster. Too many guys are hoping young Canadians will step up in 2 years time. Its nice to see a pool full of young guns like Skinner, Hall, RNH but lets be real here... there not all gonna make it and its unlikely any of them will make it with guys much more experienced and mature. Like Getzlaf.

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10-23-2012, 03:55 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
The entire Ducks team did poorly. It was a group effort, just as much points can be inflated with a good surrounding team it can also be deflated with a bad surrounding team. 80+ points is your criteria? Idk if Yzerman and Babcock care so much about a point standard on the team as they do in meeting some kind of quota. A certain ratio of big guys to small guys. Strength and Speed. Just because its a larger rink does not mean Getzlaf will be weaker... it may mean better things from him. Getzlaf can play in the top 6 or the bottom 6 of this roster.

He is not a lock, but lets not say the guy is off the roster. Too many guys are hoping young Canadians will step up in 2 years time. Its nice to see a pool full of young guns like Skinner, Hall, RNH but lets be real here... there not all gonna make it and its unlikely any of them will make it with guys much more experienced and mature. Like Getzlaf.
We understandably went with a big lineup in 2010, as Yzerman/Hockey Canada put a huge premium on size. Morrow, Staal, Heatley, Thornton, Getzlaf, Perry, Nash, Carter as an injury replacement, Mike Richards who plays much bigger than he actually is...while St. Louis, Stamkos, and Brad Richards (all top-10 in NHL scoring at the time) get left off. It worked for us in 2010, but I personally don't think they'll go that same route in 2014, at least not to the same extent. Nash, Perry and Richards will be back; Giroux, while not big, plays a physical style; Hall is very physical, perhaps to his own detriment sometimes; the Staal boys may both make it; Crosby certainly doesn't shy away from physical contact. Getzlaf is a possibility. So overall we may not be quite as big as in 2010, but we should be covered.

I'm not leaving Getzlaf off of my projected roster ue to his size/speed, but rather because he played nowhere near his potential last year, and certainly didn't impress at the WHCs either. 80 points isn't a bright line test for me, but at this point in his career we know that if he's at or near that pace, he's getting involved physically and using his size to dominate in the offensive zone, and playing with intensity and consistency. If he's not playing like that though, frankly he's not much use to Team Canada for the reasons I outlined above. He may get back to that form, he may not. I for one certainly hope he does, because you're right - some of these young guys may not pan out.

And the longer the lockout drags on, the less opportunity Yzerman et al will have to scout the Halls, Seguins, Skinners, etc., and the more likely it is that Hockey Canada will look to more established players, giving away some of the upside potential in favour of a lower-risk approach. This would certainly work in the favor of guys like Getzlaf, the Staal brothers, and Carter.

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10-23-2012, 05:46 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
Are you ever right. I distinctly remember sitting around with some buddies in the fall of 2001 drawing up our teams, and one of them had Jeff Friesen and Anson Carter on his roster, just to add some speed on the wings. Yikes.
Yeah I remember being unhappy that Recchi wasn't on the team, and he wasn't exactly a speed demon either.

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10-24-2012, 08:27 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


That entire situation would've been avoided had Luongo been able to catch that floater that hit his glove.

He was screened by an open Parise. His vision must have been further blocked as he had TWO Canadian players in the area and one within the shooting path. O yea, and he and jamie L open on top of the slot to worry about.

It wasnt a direct shot... it deflected off Nieds. The shot itself wasnt direct, Patty Kane got it having his back turned to the net and he turned and shot it. That shot could have gone anywhere, not easy for a goalie to be ready for that with no one in front of him. Let alone 2 open players and 2 players blocking his vision.


I think he is an elite goalie but on the bottom end of the 1st bracket of goalies in the world. But i certainly dont blame him AT ALL for that last second goal. The entire defense was turned upside down in the last seconds of the game.

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10-24-2012, 09:06 AM
  #588
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Canada has a lack of forwards, skating and skill in 2002? What? Yikes? When? Who? What are you all talking about!! Its freakin Canadia! The NHL top 30 in scoring were a majority of Canadians.

Im freaking American, talk about a lack of. You had a lack of, we had one of our best rosters and you guys still took home Gold.

Anyway, what Im trying to get at is that Canada values leadership, experience and size. More speed will be needed for this roster, but that doesnt mean you throw in guys like Skinner, Eberle Hall, RNH. Taking out Morrow and Marlaeu for Stamkos and Giroux automatically makes your team a faster one lol. Maybe Eberle will be ready, I can see that... but do you really think RNH and Hall and Skinner all have shot at the 2014 roster at their age. Maybe one of them, but not most or all 3. Their all kids compared to some other possible choices, and you dont want to bring a large amount of kids over to the olympics.

In 2002, you say you had a lack of speed, skaters or talent or w.e u all were complaining about.
But you could have easily had Lecavalier, Brad Richards, Dany Heatly and some other guys on that team. To me, those 3 and some others I left out were equivalent to what your saying in putting RNH, Hall and Skinner into 2014. Similar players in production and style... yet they chose guys like Nolan, Smyth, Joe N and the others I mentioned above for a simple reason.

Experience, filling up roles and special situations, and leadership. Maybe points wise, thinking about offense, you can place those 3 or other young guns onto the team but then you forget about the reasons that really have you win games and championships. You want guys who are good at faceoffs, good at forchecking, good at defensive situations. You want speed but you want size and intimidation.

I can see Seguin joining the team. With or without Bergeron. Winger/Center. Defensive minded player and good at forchecking. Energy player with a ton of experience and a championship under his belt. Learning from guys like Lucic and Bergeron (all who Yzerman and Babcock liked in 2010 and still do have confidence in).


I can see Eberle really competing for a spot. If it was NHL size I would not see the same chance but you guys are right... the team does need more smaller, faster elusive players. He can fit an offensive role on the bottom 6 with limited minutes or play more of a top 6 role and maybe see some PP time.


I see Heatly making the team still because hes your #1 goal scorer of all time. Hes not old either. You cant really go too much with points reduction, Wild had plenty of injuries and that will hurt a team and a a player. Yet its like one of his teammates once said... Heatly said scoring 26 goals was an off year that he hopes to change, and the reply to that was I never really hurt 26 goals being a bad year. Its true, 25-30 goals for any players is still a good goal scorer and I like his experience in this manner. Im not saying locked, im saying good chance especially with size.

Benn, I like Benn but now that I have Taveras in Idk about him. I can see Benn competing for one but I think hes in the middle. Between the Eberle and Seguins and the younglings of RNH and Skinner. Hall is the same age as Seguin but Tyler plays a much differ role.

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10-24-2012, 10:00 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
He was screened by an open Parise. His vision must have been further blocked as he had TWO Canadian players in the area and one within the shooting path. O yea, and he and jamie L open on top of the slot to worry about.

It wasnt a direct shot... it deflected off Nieds. The shot itself wasnt direct, Patty Kane got it having his back turned to the net and he turned and shot it. That shot could have gone anywhere, not easy for a goalie to be ready for that with no one in front of him. Let alone 2 open players and 2 players blocking his vision.


I think he is an elite goalie but on the bottom end of the 1st bracket of goalies in the world. But i certainly dont blame him AT ALL for that last second goal. The entire defense was turned upside down in the last seconds of the game.
I am guessing he's talking about the Pavelski shot earlier in the sequence (before the video you posted begins) that should have been caught to kill the American possession.

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10-24-2012, 05:00 PM
  #590
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I am guessing he's talking about the Pavelski shot earlier in the sequence (before the video you posted begins) that should have been caught to kill the American possession.
Bingo.

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10-29-2012, 09:33 AM
  #591
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Here we go. I know a couple of these guys I will get hated on for... but such is HF.

This is also what I'd LIKE more than what I PREDICT.

Stamkos-Crosby-St.Louis
Tavares-Toews-Giroux
Perry-Benn-Eberle
Nash-M.Richards-Iginla
E.Kane

Weber-Doughty
Pietrangelo-Letang
Keith-Seabrook
M.Staal

Price
Fleury
Ward

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10-29-2012, 12:28 PM
  #592
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Here we go. I know a couple of these guys I will get hated on for... but such is HF.

This is also what I'd LIKE more than what I PREDICT.

Stamkos-Crosby-St.Louis
Tavares-Toews-Giroux
Perry-Benn-Eberle
Nash-M.Richards-Iginla
E.Kane

Weber-Doughty
Pietrangelo-Letang
Keith-Seabrook
M.Staal

Price
Fleury
Ward
I like it, but I think Benn should be moved to the wing and Tavares should be used at centre.

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10-29-2012, 08:10 PM
  #593
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I'll take another stab at this;

Staal Crosby Stamkos
Tavares Giroux Perry
Richards Toews Nash
Sharp Bergeron Seguin
Eberle

Staal Weber
Keith Doughty
Letang/Del Zotto Pietrangelo

Price
Fleury
Luongo
Taxi Squad: Benn, Hall, Myers

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11-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #594
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I can see this:

Nash--Crosby--Stamkos
Staal--Toews--Giroux
Seguin--Getzlaf--Perry
Richards--Spezza--Iginla

Extras: Eberle, Zajac

Letang--Weber
Keith--Doughty
Pietrangelo--Myers

Extra: Seabrook

Price
Luongo
Fleury


Last edited by Swift Who: 11-02-2012 at 06:28 PM.
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11-04-2012, 01:37 AM
  #595
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Stamkos-Crosby-Eberle
Perry-Tavares-Giroux
Hall-Toews-Nash/Staal
Richards-RNH/Bergeron-Nash/Staal

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11-04-2012, 11:56 AM
  #596
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Originally Posted by chisholm20 View Post
I'll take another stab at this;

Staal Crosby Stamkos
Tavares Giroux Perry
Richards Toews Nash
Sharp Bergeron Seguin
Eberle

Staal Weber
Keith Doughty
Letang/Del Zotto Pietrangelo

Price
Fleury
Luongo
Taxi Squad: Benn, Hall, Myers
I like this team. Very close to mine. We differ on two guys. Good job. I have Ward instead of Fleury, and i have Skinner on my team as well, but i can live with this team. Great minds think alike (LOL).


Last edited by Mehar: 11-04-2012 at 12:02 PM.
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11-08-2012, 05:20 PM
  #597
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Staal-Crosby-Perry
Hall-Giroux-Tavares
Nash-Getzlaf-Eberle
M. Richards-Toews-Iginla
Bergeron

Pietrangelo-Weber
Letang-Doughty
Girardi-Staal
Myers

Price
Luongo
Fleury

Taxi: Spezza, Couture, Keith

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11-08-2012, 09:16 PM
  #598
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Any thoughts on 2014 hopefuls who have been playing in Europe? Seguin and Bergeron seem even more likely to me, and Thornton seems even less likely than before.

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11-09-2012, 03:49 AM
  #599
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Any thoughts on 2014 hopefuls who have been playing in Europe? Seguin and Bergeron seem even more likely to me, and Thornton seems even less likely than before.
Ya Thornton is out...but other than that I don't think HC will put a whole lot of stock into Euro stats... The fact that Seguin and Bergeron seem to be playing well there is just 1/10 of the equation. Or at least it should be... the real test comes when the NHL fires up again... btw which will be real soon.

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11-10-2012, 12:35 AM
  #600
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a bad thing about the lockout is i think it will result in the team starting to swing "old". this would have been a great year to see 8 mos. of RNH, Hall, Eb, Seguin, Benn, Skinner.

...at this point...of the "kids" ... Eberle should make the team. The 2010/11 crowd will have to wait to S. Korea.

...getting even further onward - '18 should be off the hook when it comes to uber young, explosive offense...but that will be a thread for another day (year?).

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