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Matt Duchene for Morgan Rielly

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Old
11-07-2012, 11:51 AM
  #151
sparxx87
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post


Looks like the NHL only has 9 First Line Centers.
Something like that, yeah.. Toews and Crosby were hurt for significant time and would have reached 70 points if healthy.

Are you suggesting that because the NHL has 30 teams, that theres 30 first line centres?

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11-07-2012, 11:51 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Generally speaking, most first line centres are capable of 70-80 + points...

Taking one years numbers as a sample doesn't say much..


Its the Patrice Bergeron debate.. Good second liner with good numbers doesn't make a first liner.


Just because theres 30 teams, doesn't mean theres 30 first line centres. Theres 10-15, maybe. Thats generous.
Right...and that NEVER changes right because scoring ISN'T down league-wide. Nope. No sir.

The Avs went 6 complete games without a power play last season. Yeah, it's an anomaly.

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11-07-2012, 11:52 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Something like that, yeah.. Toews and Crosby were hurt for significant time and would have reached 70 points if healthy.

Are you suggesting that because the NHL has 30 teams, that theres 30 first line centres?
Not what I'm suggesting at all.

The actual JOKE is suggesting that a 1st line center is judged a 1st line center based on POINTS alone, which is what you are currently doing.

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11-07-2012, 11:58 AM
  #154
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Not what I'm suggesting at all.

The actual JOKE is suggesting that a 1st line center is judged a 1st line center based on POINTS alone, which is what you are currently doing.
Not points alone, thats why I mentioned the Patrice Bergeron debate; he can do everything a 1st liner can, but only puts up 60 something points... Thats where the difference lies.

An extra 10, 15, 20 points from your top centre can make a big difference over 82 games.


Are you seriously trying to argue that Matt Duchene is a first line centre? Or are we just arguing semantics?

I'm a Duchene fan, and I think he certainly has the potential to acheive that status someday... But he isn't there yet. If we're arguing sematics, I won't waste my time... And if you truly think Duchene is a first line centre.... I won't waste my time.

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11-07-2012, 01:35 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Not points alone, thats why I mentioned the Patrice Bergeron debate; he can do everything a 1st liner can, but only puts up 60 something points... Thats where the difference lies.

An extra 10, 15, 20 points from your top centre can make a big difference over 82 games.


Are you seriously trying to argue that Matt Duchene is a first line centre? Or are we just arguing semantics?

I'm a Duchene fan, and I think he certainly has the potential to acheive that status someday... But he isn't there yet. If we're arguing sematics, I won't waste my time... And if you truly think Duchene is a first line centre.... I won't waste my time.
Semantics. I'm not saying Duchene is a first line center right now but I do think he certainly has the potential to be in the near future.

Strangely, since he's not yet ready to be a first line center is the SAME reason why we need to keep Stastny around and not put that burden on two players that are both 21 years of age.

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11-07-2012, 02:09 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I'm not disputing that the value is off and Toronto would have to add, but in what world is Duchene a first line centre?

55 in 81 is solid as a rookie.
67 in 80 is solid as a sophomore, 2nd line numbers at best.
28 in 58 is a complete disappointment.



Duchene may be someday, but he's not a 1st line centreman right
now. His production is that of an average 2nd liner.
He is not. Nor is Rielly a top pairing PMD. I was basing it off potential and what they each could become. Sorry you did not understand that bit.

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Old
11-07-2012, 02:54 PM
  #157
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As an Avalanche fan it pains me to trade Duchene, but Morgan Rielly is the type of player that I would really like to have on the Av's. Duchene is that first line center that could flourish in Toronto.

What do you guys/gals think?
Even though I like Duchene I don't want Toronto to trade Rielly.

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Old
11-07-2012, 04:14 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Generally speaking, most first line centres are capable of 70-80 + points...

Taking one years numbers as a sample doesn't say much..


Its the Patrice Bergeron debate.. Good second liner with good numbers doesn't make a first liner.


Just because theres 30 teams, doesn't mean theres 30 first line centres. Theres 10-15, maybe. Thats generous.
So if he got 3 more points he would be categorized as a first line player? Centers aside, What about D.Sedin, Iginla, Seguin, B.Richards, Kane, Ovechkin, Parise, Zetterberg? They ALL had between 66 and 69 points, are they not first liners either?

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11-07-2012, 04:29 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by FoppaForsberg View Post
So if he got 3 more points he would be categorized as a first line player? Centers aside, What about D.Sedin, Iginla, Seguin, B.Richards, Kane, Ovechkin, Parise, Zetterberg? They ALL had between 66 and 69 points, are they not first liners either?
You just picked a handful of players who had off years. All of which are first line players because they've shown to be in previous seasons. Most players have off years. I would bet that most, if not all, put up first line numbers next full season, whenever it happens. Iginla may be the exception due to age. Look at the rest of those mentioned over the course of their careers. Their PPG numbers are that of first line players.

Datsyuk had 67 points as well, but he missed 12 games.

Also worth noting that Sedin missed 10 games, which is significant in an 82 game schedule. He was still .93 PPG. Duchene missed significant time, but was still only .48 PPG, and .68 career. That translates to roughly 55 point average - second line numbers.

The excpetion is Seguin. I put him in the same category as Duchene. Young 2nd line player with first line upside.

I'm not disputing that Duchene's best days are ahead of him, and the Leafs jump at this deal... But Duchene isn't a first line centreman.. Not yet at least.


Last edited by sparxx87: 11-07-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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11-09-2012, 11:12 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Right. He's proven about as much as Kadri who was drafted only 4 spots later. They are about the same value wise. So by THAT logic, Kadri + 4th round pick = Duchene

It's funny, I keep putting it out there and people keep ignoring it :

1 Crosby 102+120=222 Points
2 Kane 72+70=142 Points
3 Stamkos 46+95=141 Points
4 Duchene 55+67=122 Points
5 Tavares 54+67=121 Points
6 Kovalchuk 51+67=118 Points

(Amongst active players)

It's probably because it doesn't mean anything. There are tons of guys who come in to the league at 18, put up those kind of points and then just fade away into the AHL. (oh wait, no, there aren't ANY at all)

So Duchene is 4th for points put up in his first 2 seasons, starting as an 18 year old. Yeah, that's some pretty bad company right there...he hasn't really done ANYTHING since being drafted to bring up his value. If only there was some clue, some kind of indicator to give us some kind of preview as to what he could POSSIBLY become in the future.
How did his third season go? I'm not pushing for the trade personally nor am I putting down Duchene and his upside but pretending like his disastrous third year didn't happen and putting him with those names is a tad bit disingenuous.

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11-09-2012, 11:16 AM
  #161
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This is just a really bad trade for the Avs. There is no way around it, Duchene is an up and coming young star, and Reilly has yet seen an NHL ice surface. Also Duchene was hurt last year wasn't he, wouldn't that explain a good amount of his bad year?

Funny how on HF one bad year makes him trade-able and also = value to a first rounder this year.

It would be Reilly++ for Duchene.

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11-09-2012, 11:21 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
This is just a really bad trade for the Avs. There is no way around it, Duchene is an up and coming young star, and Reilly has yet seen an NHL ice surface. Also Duchene was hurt last year wasn't he, wouldn't that explain a good amount of his bad year?

Funny how on HF one bad year makes him trade-able and also = value to a first rounder this year.

It would be Reilly++ for Duchene.
Without a doubt. What Leafs fans are arguing is how valuable those +es should be given Duchene's step back last season.

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11-09-2012, 11:27 AM
  #163
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Without a doubt. What Leafs fans are arguing is how valuable those +es should be given Duchene's step back last season.
A second rounder(maybe a first) plus another potential top 6er I would say. Maybe a pick between Colborne, Mckegg, and Ashton.

Still wouldn't make this trade from the Avs perspective though.

No Kadri also.


Last edited by Prongo: 11-09-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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11-09-2012, 11:34 AM
  #164
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I'd like to see Toronto become a 5-7 seed ONCE before we start talking about "perpetually" finishing there.

No offense intended, I definitely think the Leafs are moving forward and I think a 5-7 finish in the East is there for the taking in Toronto, but let's not put the wagon before the horse. Do it once, then we'll talk about doing it long-term.

For the record, if Colorado ever actually proposed this deal, the Leafs would be fools not to take it. Fills a huge need, and the price (Rielly - the #5 pick in a fairly bad draft year) is phenomenally reasonable.
I think they were refering to a #5-7 seed in terms of that's where they would be drafting, so still near bottom of league.

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11-09-2012, 12:22 PM
  #165
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I sum it up this way no matter how you value Rielly, Leaf fan. or not. This team is nowhere near deep enough to fill holes in one area by weaking others. Rielly, if he lives up to his potential and I think he will, will be a top 2 dman. Duchene should recover with a nice season in Col and take another step forward in his carreer. They are both high end talent wise but the Avs like the Leafs can not create one hole while filling another. Trades like this are counter productive for young teams.

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11-09-2012, 02:14 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
A second rounder(maybe a first) plus another potential top 6er I would say. Maybe a pick between Colborne, Mckegg, and Ashton.

Still wouldn't make this trade from the Avs perspective though.

No Kadri also.
I agree. And I wouldn't make the trade if I were the Avs either but the value is there.

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11-09-2012, 02:56 PM
  #167
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How did his third season go? I'm not pushing for the trade personally nor am I putting down Duchene and his upside but pretending like his disastrous third year didn't happen and putting him with those names is a tad bit disingenuous.
Slow start, injured, came back early to try to help the team try to make the playoffs and couldn't do himself justice. I guess you could argue that he should just have waited to come back but it was one of those cases where it was just discomfort and not added re-injury risk.

He played at a 50 point pace before the injury and a 17 point pace after it. For parts of the year before his injury he played wing on Stastny's line and it wasn't an experiment either of them benefited from.

Hope that gives a bit information of the "disastrous" third year.

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11-10-2012, 11:21 AM
  #168
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If Rielly keeps up his performance this year, I see no reason why a one for one couldn't be done, HF opinions be damned. I think the talent is pretty equal. I like Rielly, but I'd not be upset if he was traded for Duchene. I think he'll be a legitimate first line center, and his speed, creativity and vision would look great playing alongside Kessel

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11-10-2012, 11:32 AM
  #169
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If I were in the Avs office, there would be no way I would trade Duschene, especially when his value is hurt. There is no doubt that he will rebound, and even if he didn't become some superstar first line center, he can still become a franchise second line center for the organization, but that shouldn't be too much of a concern, the kid will rebound.

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11-10-2012, 11:32 AM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Something like that, yeah.. Toews and Crosby were hurt for significant time and would have reached 70 points if healthy.

Are you suggesting that because the NHL has 30 teams, that theres 30 first line centres?
I don't think that's the case, but there are quite a few first line centers

Kopitar
Crosby
Thornton
Richards
Giroux (depends on where he sticks positionally I suppose)
Malkin
Staal
Sedin
Getzlaf
Tavares
Stamkos
Backstrom
Spezza
Koivu
Datsyuk

Some maybes like
Backes
Mike Richards
Pavelski
Plekanec
Bergeron
RNH (he'll be a definite soon enough)
Duchene
Roy

And frankly I'm bored of coming up with more

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11-10-2012, 02:16 PM
  #171
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I don't think that's the case, but there are quite a few first line centers

Kopitar
Crosby
Thornton
Richards
Giroux (depends on where he sticks positionally I suppose)
Malkin
Staal
Sedin
Getzlaf
Tavares
Stamkos
Backstrom
Spezza
Koivu
Datsyuk

Some maybes like
Backes
Mike Richards
Pavelski
Plekanec
Bergeron
RNH (he'll be a definite soon enough)
Duchene
Roy

And frankly I'm bored of coming up with more
Giroux is a centreman? The only reason why he played the wing was due to an overflow at centre. With Richards and Carter gone, he's their undisputed number 1.

I'll agree though, theres 15 there and 14 teams represented. That means 16 teams are without a true number 1. I was just making the point that because a player is a default number 1 on his team, doesn't make him a number 1 by defintion.

The second group I see as more solid number twos, with the exception of Pavelski who was moved to wing last year due to the emergence of Logan Couture as the Sharks 2nd C.

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Old
11-10-2012, 04:18 PM
  #172
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Duchene is absolutely a first line player ,

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11-10-2012, 04:24 PM
  #173
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Since "first line player" is an invention of hockey fans anyway, it's really an all-or-nothing term, that is to say, either there are thirty first-line centers in the league or it's a disingenuous term. After all, there's no difference between saying that there's only 12 first line centers because they wouldn't be 1st line centers on different teams and saying that there's only one 1st line center because nobody in the league would supplant Crosby.

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11-10-2012, 04:35 PM
  #174
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Col adds Landeskog and one more plug.

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Old
11-10-2012, 05:24 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by WarriorOfGandhi View Post
Since "first line player" is an invention of hockey fans anyway, it's really an all-or-nothing term, that is to say, either there are thirty first-line centers in the league or it's a disingenuous term. After all, there's no difference between saying that there's only 12 first line centers because they wouldn't be 1st line centers on different teams and saying that there's only one 1st line center because nobody in the league would supplant Crosby.
Not really. Scouts, coaches and GM's use the term as well.. It wasn't invented by fans, it was invented with the sport.

Its the same as number 1 defenseman. Some teams don't have one. Many teams defense is by committee where as guys like Doughty, Lidstrom, Weber, Letang etc are first in line no matter the game situation.


The team one plays for shouldn't determine their ranking, their skillset should. Malkin is a 1st line centre, despite being the 2nd centre on his team. Suter is a number 1 defenseman, despite being number 2 on Nashville.

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