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And we are locked out again (No Progress ,, Talks collapse)

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Old
11-08-2012, 06:23 PM
  #851
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meeting is better than not meeting.

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11-08-2012, 06:46 PM
  #852
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This is going nowhere ,, Good thing I didn't get my hopes up

2012-13 season simply isn't happening and I have doubts about 2013-14 season

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11-08-2012, 07:01 PM
  #853
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This is going nowhere ,, Good thing I didn't get my hopes up

2012-13 season simply isn't happening and I have doubts about 2013-14 season
yeah, the situation is so dire. it's a good idea to give up hope right now. we might not see hockey again this decade. hope you like watching football.

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11-08-2012, 07:07 PM
  #854
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yeah, the situation is so dire. it's a good idea to give up hope right now. we might not see hockey again this decade. hope you like watching football.
I do unless the KC Chiefs are playing

My god is that franchise a wreck

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11-08-2012, 10:13 PM
  #855
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I am optimistic they're still talking but I don't like the players angle.

Not going 50-50 till year 3 makes no sense, players KNOW teams are hurting but aren't really willing to give in. They have to go 50-50 period why try delaying it so much. They will get paid but want it now.

Goes back to players taking this way to personally. I am sick of hearing people bring up 2004 as if it matters in the slightest in these negotiations. 2004 means less then 0 in these negotiations as it's a different issue, time and place. Players have to look at other leagues and the rest of the world and see they have to go 50-50 now but make sure they get full contracts on the back end.

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11-09-2012, 05:40 AM
  #856
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some owners put them self in a spot where they lose money. I'm all for honoring the contracts. Owners signed them, players should get their money.
We had guaranteed contracts and both sides have to honor this. Don't like that they get that much money? Don't sign contracts that guarantee them this much money. Pretty simple if you ask me.

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11-09-2012, 07:16 AM
  #857
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In my blog: after talking to 2 sources I can say this. We are not even close to a deal. NHL wants more concession from players who are prepare to give 1 billion $ in 5 years. Not enough. NHL and PA are not close on make whole. Bottom line: lots of work to be done.
Via Renaud P Lavoie on twitter. RDS reporter, very reliable

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11-09-2012, 08:04 AM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
some owners put them self in a spot where they lose money. I'm all for honoring the contracts. Owners signed them, players should get their money.
We had guaranteed contracts and both sides have to honor this. Don't like that they get that much money? Don't sign contracts that guarantee them this much money. Pretty simple if you ask me.
The contracts were never gauranteed to begin with. They were subject to the CBA expiring and losses on escrow years. Money was deferred and not paid out up front. The contracts signed since 05 have never been gauranteed to be worth full face value. Also, any player, and more importantly their agents, signing before the 2010 playoffs knew the owners didn't like current CBA and would be looking for significant changes in it that were friendly to the owners. The players voted for automatic escalators too, it raised escrow deductions and bumped up the pot for those years' FA signings.

I'm all for honoring the contracts as they stood at the time of the signing complete with risk. If the players want full face value on their contracts, there are big problems on the way. The owners are not going to commit to paying more money than they did last year up front and the players have known (or should have) for years now.

This idea of the players asking the owners to "honor the contracts" with the implication that they pay full gauranteed value was a nice PR push for them with the fans and media but the reality is that it's just going to end up making everything worse and it was never going to influence the owners in my opinion. It appears many of the players really believe in it based on a number of rants and blogs and tweets, it scares me.

If the owners aren't receptive to the 2 player proposals, the "honor contract" thing is going to end up really hurting the players where it counts. There will be backlash on the way and it will take the PA some time to reevaluate.

I'm sure some of the garbage proposed by the owners contributed to these potential problems.

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11-09-2012, 08:22 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
some owners put them self in a spot where they lose money. I'm all for honoring the contracts. Owners signed them, players should get their money.
We had guaranteed contracts and both sides have to honor this. Don't like that they get that much money? Don't sign contracts that guarantee them this much money. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Agreed, it just doesn't sit well at all, especially with the deals Weber, Parise and Suter signed.

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11-09-2012, 08:52 AM
  #860
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The players' pay has always been based on their share of the HRR. So they were never guaranteed the face value of their contracts - if the players' share of the HRR wasn't enough to satisfy the contracts then they took a hit. Also - I think a couple of years they actually got more money than the face value of their contracts b/c of the value of the players' share.

With that said, I don't like the idea of the owners signing huge contracts over the summer and then trying to rollback the players' HRR % to a level that it currently means the players will be paid a lot less than they were anticipating.

I think they either have to go to a slower decrease in the players' HRR share (so it's more likely there will be enough $ to pay the players' contracts) or get the extra money some other way.

Even if the players were never guaranteed their contracts, when they signed they could reasonable expect revenue to continue rising (or at least not decreasing a lot).

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11-09-2012, 09:08 AM
  #861
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Yeah, I don't think there was any reason to believe the cap was going to decrease significantly. The deals signed over the summer were misleading. Most of all, if the owners proposed rule of penalizing teams that signed these lifetime contracts goes in, that makes these players undesirable and it makes them part of the problem if their teams get into major cap trouble. They may have considered that before signing them.

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11-09-2012, 10:42 AM
  #862
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Donít for a moment think that player agents were not well aware that salaries in the future were, and are not set in stone and were unlikely to be maintained in the new CBA Iíve never actually seen one of these player contracts but Iím pretty sure the fine print would back the owners on this issue. If any agent did not inform the player of such, heís not much of an agent. Sure, some owners rushed to sign some players before the CBA expired. It was merely a smart business decision, a no-brainer, anticipating where the new CBA was headed. If Fehr and the Union started talks earlier, this fact would have been much more obvious, even to the uninformed player. Fehr knows this quite well but is being coy with the naÔve players and in doing so is misleading them. Just like his repeated mentioning of the concessions made in 2005, which are irrelevant in todays economic climate. If this season is lost, it is Fehr I blame.... just like Goodenow in 2004-5.

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11-09-2012, 11:25 AM
  #863
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There was a report that came out on the Canadian French network RDS (from a supposed insider) that claimed the owners will make good on the 50-50 up front, provided all the other concessions are agreed to. If true, they are essentially calling Fehr's bluff from his statement last week.

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11-09-2012, 12:09 PM
  #864
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Well there will be no season

No progress fromt he meetings and the NHLPA is leaking info all over the place (Ending the PR Ceasefire) including Fehr's internal memo's

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11-09-2012, 12:53 PM
  #865
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Its a shame that they can't get anything done. If a deal isn't going to get done then why are they bothering even talking? Are they just doing this for the media, to make it seem like they are trying?? I dont understand how all of these "sources" say there is no traction and PA isn't agreeing the NHL and vice versa and that owners are the ones being stubborn, yet they're still talking for several hours a day??

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11-09-2012, 12:57 PM
  #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Well there will be no season

No progress fromt he meetings and the NHLPA is leaking info all over the place (Ending the PR Ceasefire) including Fehr's internal memo's
I'm not a big fan of all the leaked memos. How does the 5% variability in contracts actually hurt the PA as a whole since everything seems to be focused on the short term? How does the 5yr limit actually hurt the PA as a whole? Seems like a scatter-shot message to a bunch of different player groups, not something that will benefit the PA in the long term

I don't see how leaking this memo now does any good for the players unless he was trying to accomplish something else. Players and owners are going to be even less likable in the next couple weeks.

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11-09-2012, 01:09 PM
  #867
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I'm not a big fan of all the leaked memos. How does the 5% variability in contracts actually hurt the PA as a whole since everything seems to be focused on the short term? How does the 5yr limit actually hurt the PA as a whole? Seems like a scatter-shot message to a bunch of different player groups, not something that will benefit the PA in the long term

I don't see how leaking this memo now does any good for the players unless he was trying to accomplish something else. Players and owners are going to be even less likable in the next couple weeks.
limits to contract length (esp. when combined with changes with to the elc and ufa periods) make it difficult for players to cash in big time and also get big contracts early.

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11-09-2012, 01:10 PM
  #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
some owners put them self in a spot where they lose money. I'm all for honoring the contracts. Owners signed them, players should get their money.
We had guaranteed contracts and both sides have to honor this. Don't like that they get that much money? Don't sign contracts that guarantee them this much money. Pretty simple if you ask me.
Except in many cases the owners had to, to reach the cap floor they had to spend money. Players know this is happening but don't care and that's my biggest issue with the players.

Players know that their contracts are hurting teams and therfore the league financially and won't do anything to help them out. That's screams selfesness and greed and any compassion for the league they play for and the fans who come see them play. They can scream about it being on principle and them just wanting whats fair but it's not fair for you to make so much that its ruining the franchise you play for.

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11-09-2012, 02:08 PM
  #869
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Well there will be no season

No progress fromt he meetings and the NHLPA is leaking info all over the place (Ending the PR Ceasefire) including Fehr's internal memo's
NHLPA didn't intentionally leak the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Players know that their contracts are hurting teams and therfore the league financially and won't do anything to help them out. That's screams selfesness and greed and any compassion for the league they play for and the fans who come see them play. They can scream about it being on principle and them just wanting whats fair but it's not fair for you to make so much that its ruining the franchise you play for.
They are offering to transfer over 1.2 Billion dollars over a 5 year agreement.

How is that 'not doing anything to help them out'?

The 50/50 split is a minor thing now, they want contractual rights, which the league has completely ****ed them over on in their most recent proposal.

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11-09-2012, 02:35 PM
  #870
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Players know that their contracts are hurting teams and therfore the league financially and won't do anything to help them out. That's screams selfesness and greed and any compassion for the league they play for and the fans who come see them play.
The NHL as a whole made money last year even with the players earning 57%. Individual teams lost money and are in financial trouble, not the league as a whole. Those teams lost money because the vast majority of the revenue is going to a small number of the teams. If those highly profitable teams were proactive about sharing their profits with the less fortunate teams then every team could have made money under the last deal. Are the players selfish and greedy? Absolutely, but so are the Owners.

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11-09-2012, 02:45 PM
  #871
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Yeah, just split up revenue and be done with it for god's sake. It works well in baseball, I believe 30% of all gates are split evenly between every team while each team keeps their own other 70%.

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11-09-2012, 02:47 PM
  #872
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The NHL as a whole made money last year even with the players earning 57%. Individual teams lost money and are in financial trouble, not the league as a whole. Those teams lost money because the vast majority of the revenue is going to a small number of the teams. If those highly profitable teams were proactive about sharing their profits with the less fortunate teams then every team could have made money under the last deal. Are the players selfish and greedy? Absolutely, but so are the Owners.
Exactly, you usually get a raise or a bonus when your company is doing well like the NHL is, yet they are taking a pay cut and the owners are arguing over how much that pay cut should be.....that's just not right.

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11-09-2012, 02:53 PM
  #873
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Except in many cases the owners had to, to reach the cap floor they had to spend money. Players know this is happening but don't care and that's my biggest issue with the players.

Players know that their contracts are hurting teams and therfore the league financially and won't do anything to help them out. That's screams selfesness and greed and any compassion for the league they play for and the fans who come see them play. They can scream about it being on principle and them just wanting whats fair but it's not fair for you to make so much that its ruining the franchise you play for.
The league itself insisted on a financial structure that has exacerbated these problems - and wants to keep that same structure in place. Even if the players get a reduced % of HRR, there same inequity is going to replicate itself a few years from now because the teams at the very top (particularly the Leafs, Habs, and NYR), who are perennial money makers, will continue to drive the cap (and floor) up.

Some of the teams in the league seem to be dragging their feet big time when it comes to meaningful revenue sharing - the players are supposed to take a hit to keep teams afloat while the teams with most of the money aren't behaving very generously themselves?

Finally, the league continues to ignore the fact that at least 2-3 of the poorest teams could be moved fairly quickly to cities where they'd make more money very quickly. While this wouldn't solve the problem for all the money losers - it would at least improve it moving the ones at the very bottom.

I'd be more sympathetic to the league if it was interested in engaging in a little bit more "self help". Instead it's decided the only way to solve things is to take from the players - which, besides being greedy in its own way, is only a temporary fix until the same problems pop up again 4 years from now.

The also ignore the obvious solution of a luxury tax - that's the easiest way to stop teams from losing money. It's also a way to reward fans in cities where people actually care about the team and will always support it. They have the opportunity to see their financial support of the team manifest itself in a better on ice product.

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11-09-2012, 03:01 PM
  #874
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The also ignore the obvious solution of a luxury tax - that's the easiest way to stop teams from losing money. It's also a way to reward fans in cities where people actually care about the team and will always support it. They have the opportunity to see their financial support of the team manifest itself in a better on ice product.
Yep, the only opposition is the "let's let everybody take turns winning" crowd but that isn't business and that's not life.

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11-09-2012, 03:29 PM
  #875
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I'm curious to find out Wirtz's exact position on this lockout.

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