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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Hamilton or Toronto2/Markham

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Hamilton 107 47.56%
GTA2/Markham 118 52.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-08-2012, 11:33 AM
  #226
Ryan34222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkhamNHL View Post
so a team in a metro of 750,000 is more likely to fill the arena than the GTA at 6.2 Million ?
in a word yes.

a Hamilton team maybe in a metro of 750,000 but it'll be a regional team.. unlike Markham, which may only serve Torontonians if they accept a team not called the Leafs

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11-08-2012, 11:34 AM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Explorer View Post
This.

lol @ markham. You realize that it is the 2nd smallest GTA area only slightly bigger than durham and is mostly filled with asian immigrants who don't give two craps about hockey. Not to mention it's not ever accessible via highway.

Hamilton, Mississauga, Brampton are all way better choices. Seriously I've lived in Toronto for 32 years, I've gone to Markham once in my life last week to pick up a TV from an asian ware house. The traffic there is a nightmare with so little highways. There are way more hockey fans on the west side of Toronto BY FAR. Do you people ever get out of your house?
York Region, where Markham is located, has more than 1 million people -- and it is growing rapidly. That's significantly more than Hamilton.

If your argument is based on some race-based generalization, I can assuage your concern and let you know that there are more white people in York Region than Hamilton. This doesn't even get to the fact that hockey in major Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver is like football in the US in the sense that it has fans that cut across different demographics.

In addition to that, it is much closer to Toronto.

I would want a team in Markham. If there had to be another team, I'd put one in Mississauga. If it had to be outside of the GTA, I'd wait a while and allow the Kitchener-Waterloo area to continue growing rapidly. Then, I'd put a team there. K-W has excellent schools, a strong creative economy, high-end tech jobs, rapid growth, etc. Basically, it's not a rapidly declining rust belt relic of a foregone civilization (i.e., Hamilton).


Last edited by saffronleaf: 11-08-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old
11-08-2012, 01:26 PM
  #228
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The fact is right now Hamilton is far more atractive market to put a 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario right now than anywhere in the GTA. because Hamilton is booming with invetment & construction right now with condos , hotels , new football stadium & a possible casino . Not to mention Hamilton would be the path of least resiestance between the Hamilton & GTA. because we all know that MLSE. will fight tooth & nail to keep another NHL. team out of the GTA. & if that means helping Hamilton get an NHL. team they will do it . Also a 2nd NHL. team in southern ontario has to be a regional team not just for Hamilton & Toronto (Markham) so you got to figure out which city is better fit for a regional NHL. team & in my opinion Hamilton is the better option because Hamilton is in a centralized location & has 2 major highways running through the city .

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11-08-2012, 01:36 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The fact is right now Hamilton is far more atractive market to put a 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario right now than anywhere in the GTA. because Hamilton is booming with invetment & construction right now with condos , hotels , new football stadium & a possible casino . Not to mention Hamilton would be the path of least resiestance between the Hamilton & GTA. because we all know that MLSE. will fight tooth & nail to keep another NHL. team out of the GTA. & if that means helping Hamilton get an NHL. team they will do it . Also a 2nd NHL. team in southern ontario has to be a regional team not just for Hamilton & Toronto (Markham) so you got to figure out which city is better fit for a regional NHL. team & in my opinion Hamilton is the better option because Hamilton is in a centralized location & has 2 major highways running through the city .
not true JM.its a rapidly declining rust belt relic of a foregone civilization dontcha know

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11-08-2012, 05:24 PM
  #230
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not true JM.its a rapidly declining rust belt relic of a foregone civilization dontcha know
Yes, yes, I used very exaggerated language to troll the pro-Hamilton crowd, but really, Hamilton is a lot more like Buffalo and Cleveland than Toronto. It is a typical rust belt city. Hamilton was in somewhat of a decline until the past decade or so, which saw rapid growth in the area between Hamilton and Toronto (i.e., Peel & Halton Regional Municipalities) and the integration of Hamilton into what is now referred to as the GTHA. Hamilton has good potential now, but it has to decide on its future direction.

I can't quite find it right now, but there was a good study by the Florida and Martin Prosperity organization outlining the future prosperity of Ontario. It divided Ontario into three categories:

1. Regions well-positioned for the creative age / innovation economy. This includes Toronto, Ottawa and K-W.

2. Older industrial cities. This includes places like Hamilton, Oshawa and Windsor.

3. Rural areas. This is mainly Northern Ontario.

The first category of areas is the one most rapidly growing and the one with the most robust local economies with the strongest economic outlooks.

It did note, however, that Hamilton seems the best positioned to transition from an older industrial city into a city well-positioned for the creative age / innovation economy. This is largely due to its proximity to Toronto.

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11-08-2012, 05:30 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
in a word yes.

a Hamilton team maybe in a metro of 750,000 but it'll be a regional team.. unlike Markham, which may only serve Torontonians if they accept a team not called the Leafs
How would a team in Hamilton be more of a regional team than one somewhere like Markham?

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11-08-2012, 05:35 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
How would a team in Hamilton be more of a regional team than one somewhere like Markham?
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. The pro Hamilton crowd never answers how Hamilton is better for the communities north of Toronto either

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11-08-2012, 05:53 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. The pro Hamilton crowd never answers how Hamilton is better for the communities north of Toronto either
Exactly. A Markham team would be a team for the regions north of Toronto, i.e., York & Simcoe.

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11-08-2012, 06:21 PM
  #234
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One reason behind the present CBA gag order is that it centres around what circumstances the expansion teams to Hamilton and Quebec would look like. Namely that there will be a connection between the make whole dilemna with the expansion fees

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11-08-2012, 06:53 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
not true JM.its a rapidly declining rust belt relic of a foregone civilization dontcha know
JM is just telling sky in the clouds stuff. Too many people in this city leave it for work. Only city in Canada. I work in Toronto. I know people who work in Burlington. My parents work in Toronto. Some "CMA"

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11-08-2012, 06:56 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The fact is right now Hamilton is far more atractive market to put a 2nd NHL. team in southern Ontario right now than anywhere in the GTA. because Hamilton is booming with invetment & construction right now with condos , hotels , new football stadium & a possible casino . Not to mention Hamilton would be the path of least resiestance between the Hamilton & GTA. because we all know that MLSE. will fight tooth & nail to keep another NHL. team out of the GTA. & if that means helping Hamilton get an NHL. team they will do it . Also a 2nd NHL. team in southern ontario has to be a regional team not just for Hamilton & Toronto (Markham) so you got to figure out which city is better fit for a regional NHL. team & in my opinion Hamilton is the better option because Hamilton is in a centralized location & has 2 major highways running through the city .
I like when people use the term "the fact is..." and then proceed to write a bunch of opinions.

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11-08-2012, 07:43 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. The pro Hamilton crowd never answers how Hamilton is better for the communities north of Toronto either
Well with out looking. I'd take a guess that Hamilton is surrounded by more population minus GTA than Markham is minus GTA..

I'd also take a guess that this has been mentioned before..

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11-08-2012, 07:48 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Well with out looking. I'd take a guess that Hamilton is surrounded by more population minus GTA than Markham is minus GTA..

I'd also take a guess that this has been mentioned before..
.and that is why Hamilton is better for the comunities north of Toronto, How?

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11-08-2012, 07:49 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
JM is just telling sky in the clouds stuff. Too many people in this city leave it for work. Only city in Canada. I work in Toronto. I know people who work in Burlington. My parents work in Toronto. Some "CMA"
And I'm the only one in my circle that work outside Hamilton.. And that's only because I used to live in Mississauga.. Bleh

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11-08-2012, 07:51 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
.and that is why Hamilton is better for the comunities north of Toronto, How?
One less loser team named Toronto to cheer for?

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11-08-2012, 08:00 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
York Region, where Markham is located, has more than 1 million people -- and it is growing rapidly. That's significantly more than Hamilton.

If your argument is based on some race-based generalization, I can assuage your concern and let you know that there are more white people in York Region than Hamilton. This doesn't even get to the fact that hockey in major Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver is like football in the US in the sense that it has fans that cut across different demographics.

In addition to that, it is much closer to Toronto.

I would want a team in Markham. If there had to be another team, I'd put one in Mississauga. If it had to be outside of the GTA, I'd wait a while and allow the Kitchener-Waterloo area to continue growing rapidly. Then, I'd put a team there. K-W has excellent schools, a strong creative economy, high-end tech jobs, rapid growth, etc. Basically, it's not a rapidly declining rust belt relic of a foregone civilization (i.e., Hamilton).
you are woefully uninformed about the current reality of both KW and the Hammer. it is laughable that anyone could possibly think that kw is a more viable NHL market than hamilton, today, tomorrow or the day after that.

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11-08-2012, 08:03 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
One less loser team named Toronto to cheer for?
Think again

CFL
y - Montreal 18 11 7 0 22
x - Toronto 18 9 9 0 18
Winnipeg 18 6 12 0 12
Hamilton 18 6 12 0 12

AHL

1 y Toronto Marlies 76 44 24 5 3 96
2 x Rochester Americans 76 36 26 10 4 86
3 Lake Erie Monsters 76 37 29 3 7 84
4 Grand Rapids Griffins 76 33 32 7 4 77
5 Hamilton Bulldogs 76 34 35 2 5 75

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11-08-2012, 08:59 PM
  #243
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Here's a map of the GTA for those who need more information:



The black dot is where the Markham arena would be, the red dot is where (approximately) the Hamilton arena would be. I also drew lines of where I believe the teams would get most of their fans from.

I also put a green dot on downsview park, which would be the perfect place to put a new team, imo.

EDIT: Although it is very unlikely that a team would ever be put there.

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11-08-2012, 09:30 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Think again

CFL
y - Montreal 18 11 7 0 22
x - Toronto 18 9 9 0 18
Winnipeg 18 6 12 0 12
Hamilton 18 6 12 0 12

AHL

1 y Toronto Marlies 76 44 24 5 3 96
2 x Rochester Americans 76 36 26 10 4 86
3 Lake Erie Monsters 76 37 29 3 7 84
4 Grand Rapids Griffins 76 33 32 7 4 77
5 Hamilton Bulldogs 76 34 35 2 5 75
why you have to bring the Tiger Cats into this.. Way to twist the knife Stix

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11-08-2012, 09:37 PM
  #245
Ryan34222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish your Czech View Post
Here's a map of the GTA for those who need more information:



The black dot is where the Markham arena would be, the red dot is where (approximately) the Hamilton arena would be. I also drew lines of where I believe the teams would get most of their fans from.

I also put a green dot on downsview park, which would be the perfect place to put a new team, imo.

EDIT: Although it is very unlikely that a team would ever be put there.
Seems reasonable..i didn't think Mississaugians would go to a Markham team either

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11-08-2012, 11:00 PM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. The pro Hamilton crowd never answers how Hamilton is better for the communities north of Toronto either
They already have a team...it's called the TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS...

Quote:
Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Exactly. A Markham team would be a team for the regions north of Toronto, i.e., York & Simcoe.
Then why would the team be called Toronto?

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11-09-2012, 11:30 AM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
And I'm the only one in my circle that work outside Hamilton.. And that's only because I used to live in Mississauga.. Bleh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Think again

CFL
y - Montreal 18 11 7 0 22
x - Toronto 18 9 9 0 18
Winnipeg 18 6 12 0 12
Hamilton 18 6 12 0 12

AHL

1 y Toronto Marlies 76 44 24 5 3 96
2 x Rochester Americans 76 36 26 10 4 86
3 Lake Erie Monsters 76 37 29 3 7 84
4 Grand Rapids Griffins 76 33 32 7 4 77
5 Hamilton Bulldogs 76 34 35 2 5 75
I guess Ryan is right because if a .500 record is considered good and playoff worthy then we got a problem...

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Old
11-09-2012, 01:26 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Well with out looking. I'd take a guess that Hamilton is surrounded by more population minus GTA than Markham is minus GTA..

I'd also take a guess that this has been mentioned before..
One cannot simply ignore the Greater Toronto Area. Doing so does not refute the argument that a team in Markham would be more successful than one in Hamilton; all it does is sidestep it.

There are reasons why a team in Hamilton would be better than one in Markham. Arguments based on emotion are not among them. That includes, but is not limited to, "Toronto should not have two teams" and "People in the western Golden Horseshoe need a team to cheer for."

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Old
11-09-2012, 02:41 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Then why would the team be called Toronto?
Probably the same reason why the AHL team in Chicagoland is the Chicago Wolves and not the Rosemont Wolves. Because no one outside Rosemont cares about Rosemont.

If you're based in the outskirts of a major city, it'd be in your best interest to be named after that city. If Markham gets a team, only way that they're not named "Toronto" would be if the Leafs decided to lessen their indemnity demands for a new team (or stipulated that a new team couldn't be named after the city) as part of whatever agreement allowed them to move in in the first place.

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Old
11-09-2012, 05:13 PM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
One cannot simply ignore the Greater Toronto Area. Doing so does not refute the argument that a team in Markham would be more successful than one in Hamilton; all it does is sidestep it.

There are reasons why a team in Hamilton would be better than one in Markham. Arguments based on emotion are not among them. That includes, but is not limited to, "Toronto should not have two teams" and "People in the western Golden Horseshoe need a team to cheer for."
Markham could be more successful, it could also draw like the other teams in GTA not named Maple Leafs once the shine wore off.. and really the difference between the 2 wouldnt be that great..

the post you quoted was about where's the better location to serve Southern Ontario..

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