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THN: Brampton Battalion relocation proves Toronto isn't a hockey town

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Old
11-10-2012, 12:12 AM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
Brampton is in the GTA. (Greater Toronto Area)

St. Mike's had to move from Toronto to Mississauga (Which is also in the GTA) and they're still second last in attendance, only ahead of Brampton.

Don Cherry's Mississauga Ice Dogs had to leave.

The Roadrunners lasted 1 season in Toronto.

The Marlies attendance has been lousy since returning to Toronto a few years ago.
I grew up in Brampton. Brampton is NOT part of the GTA. Neither are Mississauga nor Hamilton.

Toronto is the greatest hockey town in the world, bar none.

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11-10-2012, 12:12 AM
  #202
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I don't think junior hockey is very attractive to people in the first place. Toronto is a big city and the only city in Canada that has MLB, NBA and the NHL (no matter how bad the attendance of MLB and the NBA teams get if they aren't doing good).

The only thing that can be deduced from this is that fans near or in Toronto are fans of NHL/Leafs hockey first and then every other league.

If Morgan Rielly played for the Brampton Battalions, you sure as heck could bet that it will sell out every night.

There are nearly 5-6 OHL teams within driving distance from Toronto. If they all had to relocate, I'd see it as a problem but just because one team has to relocate, doesn't mean Toronto isn't a hockey town.

As far as the Marlies are concerned...they were downright terrible at first, our best prospect was a guy who took naked pictures of himself, and the team was a mess. During this lockout, the team has gained some good prospects, season ticket sales have increased 30% because of their playoff run.

MLSE does bleed money because of the Marlies..but in the end the AHL is a development league and having your prospects within walking distance to the ACC is not a perk every team can have or afford to have.

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11-10-2012, 12:21 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Anyone that has been to both cities and says there's more to do in Vancouver is lying

lol
Great arguments. You really added a lot here.

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11-10-2012, 12:23 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I don't think junior hockey is very attractive to people in the first place. Toronto is a big city and the only city in Canada that has MLB, NBA and the NHL (no matter how bad the attendance of MLB and the NBA teams get if they aren't doing good).

The only thing that can be deduced from this is that fans near or in Toronto are fans of NHL/Leafs hockey first and then every other league.

If Morgan Rielly played for the Brampton Battalions, you sure as heck could bet that it will sell out every night.

There are nearly 5-6 OHL teams within driving distance from Toronto. If they all had to relocate, I'd see it as a problem but just because one team has to relocate, doesn't mean Toronto isn't a hockey town.

As far as the Marlies are concerned...they were downright terrible at first, our best prospect was a guy who took naked pictures of himself, and the team was a mess. During this lockout, the team has gained some good prospects, season ticket sales have increased 30% because of their playoff run.

MLSE does bleed money because of the Marlies..but in the end the AHL is a development league and having your prospects within walking distance to the ACC is not a perk every team can have or afford to have.
TO isn't a hockey market, it's a Leafs market. Why does this offend Leafs fans? Nothing wrong with that. Be proud. Leafs or nothing!

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11-10-2012, 12:38 AM
  #205
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I would argue that any city that is part of the Go Transit network is part of the GTA.
This means that tens of thousands of people from those cities commute into Toronto everyday for work, making them a significant part of the city.
http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/...es/sysmap.aspx
If you look at that map, there are eight current OHL teams represented.

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11-10-2012, 01:00 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
TO isn't a hockey market, it's a Leafs market. Why does this offend Leafs fans? Nothing wrong with that. Be proud. Leafs or nothing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
A very large number of second or later generation Canadians of Asian descent (all of Asia) love hockey. You're seeing more black Canadians adopting the sport too, which is great because it's such an integral part of Canadian culture. However, many first generation immigrants and people who stay in their ethnic circles (including Europeans) don't tend to embrace hockey and that's a lot of what you see in Brampton. There isn't anything wrong with this, but it doesn't make for a situation that is good for a hockey team.

Regardless, a team 45 minutes away from Toronto on the outskirts of the GTA isn't a top priority for Torontonians and even most people in the closer suburbs. Mississauga is closer and has a good following of people from the west-end, Barrie and many junior A teams reside successfully in the northern area and north of the GTA and the Gens, Pickering Panthers and Whitby Fury all play in the less populated east-end. I just don't understand how this writer thinks Toronto isn't a hockey town.

So here are a list of Junior A and above teams in the GTA:

Toronto Maple Leafs (NHL)
Toronto Marlies (AHL)
Brampton Battalion (OHL) - leaving
Mississauga Steelheads (OHL)
Oshawa Generals (OHL)
Barrie Colts (OHL)
Whitby Fury (Junior A)
Pickering Panthers (Junior A)
Aurora Tigers (Junior A)
Newmarket Hurricanes (Junior A)
Mississauga Chargers (Junior A)
Toronto Jr. Canadiens (Junior A)
Stouffville Spirit (Junior A)
St. Michael's Buzzards (Junior A)
North York Rangers (Junior A)
Toronto Lakeshore Patriots (Junior A)
Burlington Cougars (Junior A)
Oakville Blades (Junior A)
Milton Icehawks (Junior A)

And if expanded to the Golden Horseshoe, you could also include:

Guelph Storm (OHL)
Niagara Ice Dogs (OHL)
Kitchener Rangers (OHL)
Peterborough Petes (OHL)
Orangeville Flyers (Junior A)
Lindsay Huskies (Junior A)
Georgetown Raiders (Junior A)

Not a bad number of teams within around an hour drive from Toronto (excluding Hamilton and CIS teams). For a non-hockey town this is pretty impressive, IMO.
It bothers people because it's not true. Not only can it be proven by common sense, but the above post and some additional information can prove to even the daftest of posters that the largest hockey market in the world is indeed a hockey city...

Toronto is also home to the GTHL (Greater Toronto Hockey League), which is the largest hockey league in the ENTIRE WORLD. Not to mention the hundreds of Scarborough and OMHA (Ontario Minor Hockey Association) teams operating in the Greater Toronto Area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTHL

You can also add in the ASHL (Adult Safe Hockey League), which is the largest 'beer league' in the world and has thousands of teams in the Toronto area.

We also hold the WJC team in exhibition play yearly and sell out every game.

And additionally, a list of current NHL players from Toronto/GTA:

Andrew Cogliano
Daniel Winnik
Chris Kelly
Rich Peverley
Tyler Seguin
Shawn Thornton
Mike Cammalleri
Mark Giordano
Matt Stajan
Dennis Wideman
Cody Hodgson
Tim Brent
Jay Harrison
Anthony Stewart
Dave Bolland
Dan Carcillo
Jamal Mayers
David Jones
Steve Mason
Trevor Daley
Carlo Colaiacovo
Theo Peckham
Shawn Matthias
Stephen Weiss
Kyle Clifford
Matt Halischuk
David Clarkson
Josh Bailey
Brad Boyes
Matt Moulson
John Tavares
Michael del Zotto
Steve Eminger
Rick Nash
Jason Spezza
Wayne Simmonds
Raffi Torres
James Neal
Brent Burns
Logan Couture
Brian Elliot
Alex Pietrangelo
Chris Stewart
Steven Stamkos
Nazem Kadri
Kyle Wilson
Manny Malhotra
Joel Ward
Wojtek Wolski

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11-10-2012, 01:36 AM
  #207
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The GTHL is bursting at the seams in the GTA, including Mississauga and Brampton. The populations are massive. So massive that even when you consider race-based generalizations, there are enough white people to support hockey. And of course, this doesn't get at the fact that hockey in major Canadian cities is like football in the US; the interest cuts across demographic lines. Having grown up in Mississauga, I can quite confidently say that hockey has made major inroads in immigrant communities - of course, like most people say, this is in the second-generation that understands English better and is more assimilated. Hell, with things like Hockey Night in Punjabi, even the more recent immigrants in cities like Vancouver and Toronto are exhibiting interest in hockey.

What I think is more of a reason for the Battalions moving is the fact that the GTA is more of a professional sports town. It has an appetite for professional sports; and reasonably so, considering its massive population and proximity to the big city. If you're looking for passionate minor league fanbases, you've gotta get to the smaller towns that compose Southern Ontario -- London, Sarnia, Kitchener, etc. You've got rabid minor hockey fans there. But if you want professional sports team fans? Look no further than the GTA.

Anyways, just look at the GTHL. The GTA produces the most hockey players of any city in the world, and considering the state of the GTHL, this will continue -- despite the dire state of the Leafs. If TO was nothing but a Leafs town, it would have collapsed at some point in the last 45 years with respect to hockey interest.


Last edited by saffronleaf: 11-10-2012 at 01:41 AM.
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11-10-2012, 01:48 AM
  #208
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What's even more hilarious is that Toronto is being deemed a "Leafs" market.

Anyone who has interacted with people that were born and/or raised in Toronto, and anyone who has lived in Toronto can tell you that there are at least as many anti-Leafs fans as there are Leafs fans.

This is why most people believe a second NHL team in the GTA can so easily succeed. So many people from other parts of Canada and the US (as well as Asia, obviously) settle in Canada, and many of those people (from other parts of Canada and the US) have allegiances to other hockey teams. Even among the people that have been in Toronto for generations dislike the Leafs and support other teams.

At the very, very least, characterize the GTA as an NHL town.

But even that would be incorrect because the GTHL is the largest development league in the world. And, the GTA has produced the most NHL players in the world.

All of this suggests that, while the OHL and AHL might not have firm footing in the GTA, that hockey is somewhat scraping by. Slightly behind Phoenix and Atlanta, but scraping by nonetheless.

****, I mean, damnit, if there were a match between Southern Ontario vs. the Rest of Canada (or the entirety of the US), I would bet on Southern Ontario. And these people have the nerve to question Toronto as a hockey market.

Might as well start questioning Dallas as a football market.

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11-10-2012, 02:35 AM
  #209
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Toronto isn't a good hockey town? Right. When was the last time the Leafs weren't sold out? junior hockey is an afterthought really. There is almost too much hockey to cover in this area. Toronto is also the only city in Canada that has MLB and the NBA as well. There are plenty of options in this town and lets not forget as it's been pointed out, the city has a million different cultures and lets face it, hockey is without a doubt, a sport dominated by whites and followed by whites. Go to Brampton, a city with a huge Indian and Pakistani population, what are they watching or playing? cricket. That's just one example. There are so many cultures here, so many teams to follow, some of the best nightlife in the world...you can't expect every junior team to succeed. Junior teams do extremely well in small towns and it's pretty simple why; they have a much less saturated market. If you live in say, Owen Sound, chances are you'll at least follow the local team, there's not a lot of options. It's also foolish for people outside of this city to believe that everyone in the GTA is a Leafs fan. I can't give an exact number here but I'd estimate that probably 35% percent of hockey fans here aren't Leafs fans. Keep in mind, generations ago there were plenty of original 6 fans spread throughout the country and those people tend to pass that on to their kids. I have plenty of friends who are Habs fans,Wings fans,Bruins fans and even friends who are fans of expansion teams like the Oilers,Canucks,Senators,Penguins etc etc etc. A junior team leaving doesn't prove anything. Go to any bar here on any given night and look at what's on all the TV's. It's an NHL town, not a junior town, there's a big difference there.

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11-10-2012, 02:41 AM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckclektr View Post
I agree 100%
Oshawa is in the GTA
Guelph is not.

more clarification.

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11-10-2012, 02:44 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evileye View Post
I would argue that any city that is part of the Go Transit network is part of the GTA.
The definition as many people, including the Provincial Government
has it as the City of Toronto, and any municipality, in the 4 regions
surrounding it.

Hamilton was brought in only for transit reasons

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11-10-2012, 02:46 AM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckclektr View Post
I just did a quick count of the first random friends/family up to 20. 15 are a fan of mix teams and 5 are leaf fans. This is far from a leaf town. It is an NHL town. People love the NHL but not everyone are leaf fans. Many leaf haters in this area.
I'll still say the State of the team plays a huge part.

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11-10-2012, 02:49 AM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
I happen to know some people that moved from Montreal to Toronto and still remain Canadiens fans, so that's where I got that example from. It didn't have anything to do with picking a favorite team because of a specifc player or recent sucess.
I would say that, up until recently, remained true of people from
many provinces, other towns in Ontario. The Subbans father moved
from Sudbury. Due to the language its 50/50 there.

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11-10-2012, 03:00 AM
  #214
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I wonder what the numbers would be like if you concentrated on the Leafs. I mean fans, and judging by HF, people who hate the Leafs,
more than loving another team?

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11-10-2012, 03:35 AM
  #215
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Yea the leafs generating the most revenue yet after year and having no success to speak of definetly shows Toronto isn't a hockey city. A hotdog at the ACC costs the same amount as a seat in Tampa, Fla, Phx, Texas and all those other major hockey cities.

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11-10-2012, 03:38 AM
  #216
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I've always thought of Toronto, well Canada for that matter, has a hockey hotbed.

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11-10-2012, 03:42 AM
  #217
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One thing I do find funny is that people say that its Indian and Pakastani in brampton. How exactly is it pakastani? Last time I checked, its all Punjabi (a state in India) and some from the rest of India. Take a look at the Brampton Census:

http://www.brampton.ca/EN/Business/e...20Language.pdf

Of all the languages spoken at home in Brampton, 62% is English and 13% is Punjabi. The language of Pakistan, Urdu, is in at a gigantic 1.9%. Whereas other languages from India, such as Gujarati and Hindi are around the same percentage. To say that Brampton is largely Indian AND Pakistani is false, even though most people on here probably don't care that there is a difference, there is.

And further more, its pretty dumb to say that people in Brampton want to watch cricket, just because they are of Indian descent. I would say the vast majority of people here are bigger hockey fans then they are cricket fans. Most people see cricket maybe once every 4 years for the world cup (assuming its every 4 years, I don't know), they watch hockey year round. Just because Brampton can't sell out OHL games, doesn't mean that it wants to watch cricket instead of hockey. Hockey is huge here, just as it was in Mississauga when they lost 2 OHL teams in the last how many years?

Brampton, just like the rest of the GTA, is LEAF crazy. Leafs are huge here and just because 13% of the population speaks Punjabi at home, doesn't mean they don't love the Leafs. I mean, why else would CBC do Leaf broadcasts in Punjabi? For the Punjabi people in Vancouver? Lol hell no. They do it for the Punjabi people in the GTA, including Brampton. I mean, to say that Brampton's demographic prevented the Battalion from flourishing is simply dumb. Especially when CBC is providing broadcasts in that specific demographic's main language for LEAF games.

Sorry for the rant, just a hockey crazed Punjabi poster from Brampton clarifying some things.

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11-10-2012, 04:05 AM
  #218
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Punjabi has just become the new #2 language in Toronto too.

There was a thread about Ramadan (yes I know, not Sikh), on the Leafs board. I was surprised how many people were going to be taking
part in the observance, who were regular posters. Quite a few use
the Indian flag along with their avatar.

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11-10-2012, 04:36 AM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
One thing I do find funny is that people say that its Indian and Pakastani in brampton. How exactly is it pakastani? Last time I checked, its all Punjabi (a state in India) and some from the rest of India. Take a look at the Brampton Census:

http://www.brampton.ca/EN/Business/e...20Language.pdf

Of all the languages spoken at home in Brampton, 62% is English and 13% is Punjabi. The language of Pakistan, Urdu, is in at a gigantic 1.9%. Whereas other languages from India, such as Gujarati and Hindi are around the same percentage. To say that Brampton is largely Indian AND Pakistani is false, even though most people on here probably don't care that there is a difference, there is.

And further more, its pretty dumb to say that people in Brampton want to watch cricket, just because they are of Indian descent. I would say the vast majority of people here are bigger hockey fans then they are cricket fans. Most people see cricket maybe once every 4 years for the world cup (assuming its every 4 years, I don't know), they watch hockey year round. Just because Brampton can't sell out OHL games, doesn't mean that it wants to watch cricket instead of hockey. Hockey is huge here, just as it was in Mississauga when they lost 2 OHL teams in the last how many years?

Brampton, just like the rest of the GTA, is LEAF crazy. Leafs are huge here and just because 13% of the population speaks Punjabi at home, doesn't mean they don't love the Leafs. I mean, why else would CBC do Leaf broadcasts in Punjabi? For the Punjabi people in Vancouver? Lol hell no. They do it for the Punjabi people in the GTA, including Brampton. I mean, to say that Brampton's demographic prevented the Battalion from flourishing is simply dumb. Especially when CBC is providing broadcasts in that specific demographic's main language for LEAF games.

Sorry for the rant, just a hockey crazed Punjabi poster from Brampton clarifying some things.
I lived in Brampton for a long time and had plenty of classmates who were of Indian and Pakistani descent, more so Indian obviously. And yes, cricket is huge in those cultures. If you're referring to second or third generation Canadians that's a different story(I'm sure you are?) as far as sports goes to which I would point out, among second or third generation Canadians who are non-Caucasian, the NBA seems to dominate. Of course there gonna be hockey fans of any descent, that's only logical. Hockey is still by far the most popular sport in the country and even if you tried to avoid it, you're still gonna run into hockey. Also, weren't the punjabi broadcasts cancelled? Also, many Indians speak English, not sure if that's factored into the numbers considering a huge chunk of East Indians grow up with the language in India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ing_population

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11-10-2012, 04:38 AM
  #220
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I grew up in Brampton. Brampton is NOT part of the GTA. Neither are Mississauga nor Hamilton.

Toronto is the greatest hockey town in the world, bar none.
Not only is Toronto not a good hockeytown, Its not a good sports town period.

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11-10-2012, 05:16 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by llb9977 View Post
Not only is Toronto not a good hockeytown, Its not a good sports town period.
Yeah our youth hockey is pretty laughable compared to communities like New York City... LOL

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11-10-2012, 05:28 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
TO isn't a hockey market, it's a Leafs market. Why does this offend Leafs fans? Nothing wrong with that. Be proud. Leafs or nothing!
Its a stupid statement. Montreal isn't much of a hockey market either by your definition.

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11-10-2012, 07:15 AM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinnishKulemin View Post
Plus Brampton and Mississauga are not Toronto. The GTA is different from Toronto itself. It's like saying that even though you live in Boston, you're actually a New York resident. They are part of the same megalopolis so it must be that...
Distance from downtown Toronto to downtown Brampton, as the crow flies: 31 kilometers (about 19 miles).

Distance from downtown Boston to downtown New York (Manhattan), as the crow flies: 190 miles (about 308 kilometers).

But, hey, what's an order of magnitude between friends?


Bonus reference:
Distance from Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum (current soon-to-be-former home of the New York Islanders) to Madison Square Garden (home of the New York Rangers), as the crow flies: ~21 miles (about 34 kilometers).

But "it's not Toronto."

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11-10-2012, 07:22 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Distance from downtown Toronto to downtown Brampton, as the crow flies: 31 kilometers (about 19 miles).

Distance from downtown Boston to downtown New York (Manhattan), as the crow flies: 190 miles (about 308 kilometers).

But, hey, what's an order of magnitude between friends?


Bonus reference:
Distance from Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum (current soon-to-be-former home of the New York Islanders) to Madison Square Garden (home of the New York Rangers), as the crow flies: ~21 miles (about 34 kilometers).

But "it's not Toronto."


On top of that, Brampton borders Toronto. literally 1 step away.

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11-10-2012, 08:01 AM
  #225
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I have lived in Calgary, Vancouver, Edmonton, and Toronto (where I grew up and currently live and work). Maybe it is an outlier experience, but I have found that the average Torontonian is way less knowledgeable when it comes to hockey than the average person in every one of those other cities. Even in an office of around 400 people, I find it difficult to have a conversation where people knew about prospects, etc in Toronto...despite the fact everyone would say they are a huge Leafs fan. In all of those other cities, I was shocked by how many people would know real details about the respective organizations.

It is just the sheer number of people in Toronto that makes it such a hockey hotbed. But as a %age of the population I would venture a guess that Toronto has the least number of truly knowledgeable hockey fans in any of the Canadian NHL cities.

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