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The All Purpose Lu Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
11-10-2012, 05:25 AM
  #826
Man Bear Pig
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
For Luongo, I agree. The pressure would be far less in TO. VAN is known as the "goalie graveyard". Fans here are _very_ hard on their goalies. This is why losing Lu is such a big deal here. He is the best goalie this organization has ever had. And people know it.



For Burke, IMO, he feels the pressure in TO. He has already lashed out at several media types because for one reason or another, he cares about controlling information. He did the
same thing here when he went after Gallagher and Pratt. IMO, he shields the players, but he also suffers from paying too much attention to the hearsay. If anyone is acutely aware of what will happen to him in the TO spotlight, it's Burke.
Well, I'm not sure Burke is as into the media as we may think. He rolled the dice big time on Kessel and again on Phaneuf. As far as lashing out to the media, in one instance, a writer actually called James Reimers mother to get more accurate information on his neck/brain injury. It's the most unprofessional, slimy thing in recent times I can recall. Even if someone isn't a fan of Burke, you can't hold his loyalty against him regarding players. The man will always sacrifice himself first which is honorable.

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11-10-2012, 06:59 AM
  #827
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Well, I'm not sure Burke is as into the media as we may think. He rolled the dice big time on Kessel and again on Phaneuf. As far as lashing out to the media, in one instance, a writer actually called James Reimers mother to get more accurate information on his neck/brain injury. It's the most unprofessional, slimy thing in recent times I can recall. Even if someone isn't a fan of Burke, you can't hold his loyalty against him regarding players. The man will always sacrifice himself first which is honorable.


Oh I know, he's fiercely protective of his players. It was the same in VAN and ANA. I think it's a big reason why players like him.



IMO, Burke is _very_ media conscious. If he doesn't like something in print/radio about himself, he will take active steps to put said reporters job in jeopardy. He did it with Gallagher, Pratt and even Cherry. For all the bluster, he cares about perception.



One instance that sticks out to me is when the Kaberle trade went down. A reporter asked him to comment on getting picks back, while sending picks out for Kessel. He kind of lost it there. He said this type of thing creates jobs for reporters, and that one can continue talking about Kessel in order to make their jobs relevant... He didn't have to do that. Burke could have just explained his approach and left it at that, but he knows what the larger perception of his trades actually is.



He's very aware. Even if he may not be proven to act on that awareness.

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11-10-2012, 07:06 AM
  #828
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That's very tempting; would you consider dropping both Kadri and Kassian?
agree with this.

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11-10-2012, 08:59 AM
  #829
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Several times in the past a system and coaching change has produced better results on teams. The team Carlye was brought in to coach last season had negative confidence. The lack of a proper training camp will not help this, however if the players buy into his system it could change. Same goes for the goaltending coach change, if goalies buy in and they work as a team it may not get worse. And, unlike Wilson i don't see carlye thowing his players under the bus to the media. All these small things can ad up to better. Besides that you react as if I said the goalie tandem is going to compete for the Jennings trophy.

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11-10-2012, 09:31 AM
  #830
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Originally Posted by ginner classic View Post
Given the love Toronto people show for James Reimer, 30th best starter in the NHL, I think Lou will do just fine there. There are low expectations for the team compared to here (cup or bust, literally - see game 7). The last few elite keepers had a very easy time there (CuJo, Eddie). You have not been hard on a good goalie since Felix started melting down.

Lou would be just fine there.
What on earth are you talking about?

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11-10-2012, 09:51 AM
  #831
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Luongo has never shown any sign of taking the Vancouver press seriously. This may change with a new location, but I think they'd have to viciously target him to attract notice.

I do not think Luongo is affected by outside pressure. I do not think highly visible teams need avoid Luongo. Philadelphia, one of the most notorious markets for this sort of thing would be an excellent fit for Luongo. He will deliver the type of performance that they hoped to get from Bryzgalov.

Enough time has passed since last season for some things to change. Some guys might actually stay in Russia. Some players won't be able to get into shape. Some surgeries didn't go well. Some guys changed agents. Stuff like that has happened.

Boston's starter left the team. TB hired a kid with 38 NHL games, apparently to start. Philadelphia's guy said he might stay in Russia. NJ retained aged Brodeur, who was already losing starts to Hedberg! There are lots of things that might develop between now and when the teams hit the ice.
Just reading the guy's tweets shows he can let stuff go pretty easily.

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11-10-2012, 09:57 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
Several times in the past a system and coaching change has produced better results on teams. The team Carlye was brought in to coach last season had negative confidence. The lack of a proper training camp will not help this, however if the players buy into his system it could change. Same goes for the goaltending coach change, if goalies buy in and they work as a team it may not get worse. And, unlike Wilson i don't see carlye thowing his players under the bus to the media. All these small things can ad up to better. Besides that you react as if I said the goalie tandem is going to compete for the Jennings trophy.



If Carlyle intends to employ a defensive system, goaltending will be key. You can get guys to play smarter hockey. He will do that where Wilson could not. But in the end, defensive systems are nothing without solid to strong goaltending.



Carlyle had better goaltending in ANA. It remains to be seen if he can do well with the same system, but with weaker goaltending.

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11-10-2012, 10:22 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If Carlyle intends to employ a defensive system, goaltending will be key. You can get guys to play smarter hockey. He will do that where Wilson could not. But in the end, defensive systems are nothing without solid to strong goaltending.



Carlyle had better goaltending in ANA. It remains to be seen if he can do well with the same system, but with weaker goaltending.
In all fairness, before Reimer was injured he was 4-1 (small sample i know). The prior season he was 20-10-5. He was rushed back last season and was clearly not recovered. Gus was just horri-bad. That is not to say that things are rosie, but prior to having his head nearly taken off, Reimer was 34-11-5. If he can get back to that form, we should be good. Even if you take his numbers from last season he is a carreer 34-24-9, not hall of fame, but with what is in front of him, not terrible.

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11-10-2012, 11:02 AM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
In all fairness, before Reimer was injured he was 4-1 (small sample i know). The prior season he was 20-10-5. He was rushed back last season and was clearly not recovered. Gus was just horri-bad. That is not to say that things are rosie, but prior to having his head nearly taken off, Reimer was 34-11-5. If he can get back to that form, we should be good. Even if you take his numbers from last season he is a carreer 34-24-9, not hall of fame, but with what is in front of him, not terrible.


Even getting back to "form", is he good enough to get them to the playoffs? Is he the lynchpin that a defensive structure can be built around? That's the question. I say no.



"We should be good" means that you can see him as a better option than at least 7 goalies in the East? Or how about better than any of the 8 that made the post-season last year?

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11-10-2012, 11:19 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If Carlyle intends to employ a defensive system, goaltending will be key. You can get guys to play smarter hockey. He will do that where Wilson could not. But in the end, defensive systems are nothing without solid to strong goaltending.



Carlyle had better goaltending in ANA. It remains to be seen if he can do well with the same system, but with weaker goaltending.
What you say is true, to a point. A better defensive system limits quality chances, taking pressure off goalies. If you start winning, it builds confidence, which in turn again usually results in better play. So i guess we will just have to wait and see. Point is we can't sell the farm to aquire him, period. It makes less sense to deplete a cupboard that is just starting to have some good prospects, to hope to keep players that may or may not stay either way.

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11-10-2012, 11:26 AM
  #836
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I think defensive systems are huge, but they need to be built around a quality guy in net. Example ANA with Giggy, he would actually kick the puck tot he center of the ice, so the defense of ANA knew this and played to it.

Or Halak a few years ago with Montreal, as good as he was, the Montreal defense would just calapse like crazy, and that really helped him out.

I look at PHX, and their GM targeted Smith for a few reasons, one his body type, (long and lanky) and his style of play suited the way PHX plays.

So really it is does Reimer or Scrivens fit into a Carlyle system? I don't know.

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11-10-2012, 11:31 AM
  #837
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Originally Posted by doorman View Post
What you say is true, to a point. A better defensive system limits quality chances, taking pressure off goalies. If you start winning, it builds confidence, which in turn again usually results in better play. So i guess we will just have to wait and see. Point is we can't sell the farm to aquire him, period. It makes less sense to deplete a cupboard that is just starting to have some good prospects, to hope to keep players that may or may not stay either way.


I agree with you. In fact I don't think TO should trade for Luongo at all. Run the defensive system with Reimer and see what happens. Either way, you will understand your need better. If the system works, it should be enough to put you on the bubble. If it doesn't, you'll know why it doesn't, which means you will have a better understanding of your team's need.



Only problem with that is others will also understand your need acutely. If it's clear goaltending is a concern, no one will do the Leafs any favours in providing a solution. If it's not a concern, you have nothing to worry about.

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11-10-2012, 11:43 AM
  #838
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That's very tempting; would you consider dropping both Kadri and Kassian?
I'd say not, simply becasue I value Phaneuf higher and think we'd need to even it out a little.

I value Phaneuf higer based on the remaining years on his contract + how old he actually he is. Both players have a great game in their respective positions.

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Old
11-10-2012, 11:45 AM
  #839
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I'd say not, simply becasue I value Phaneuf higher and think we'd need to even it out a little.

I value Phaneuf higer based on the remaining years on his contract + how old he actually he is. Both players have a great game in their respective positions.
I'd add a 2nd instead, if that makes it better.

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11-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #840
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I agree with you. In fact I don't think TO should trade for Luongo at all. Run the defensive system with Reimer and see what happens. Either way, you will understand your need better. If the system works, it should be enough to put you on the bubble. If it doesn't, you'll know why it doesn't, which means you will have a better understanding of your team's need.



Only problem with that is others will also understand your need acutely. If it's clear goaltending is a concern, no one will do the Leafs any favours in providing a solution. If it's not a concern, you have nothing to worry about.
Everything you say is true, but nobody is going to want do them any favours now either, lol. I really am curious to see how the team responds to Carlye this season and what system they play. I think a shortened training camp really hurts the Leafs more then some of the other teams. I have been misunderstood in other posts about finishing low enough for a good pick as wanting to tank. I don't but another possibly very good prospect or two is exactly what we need for the future. Plus eventually they need to see if any of what they have can play or not. This team can't be rebuilt around free agancy as it has soooooooo many times in the past, IMO. If that means some of the players leave, well so be it I hope we at least get some value for them. If the team is not built to get better through the draft and young players we have aquired, we will always be a middling team at best.

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11-10-2012, 12:13 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Even getting back to "form", is he good enough to get them to the playoffs? Is he the lynchpin that a defensive structure can be built around? That's the question. I say no.



"We should be good" means that you can see him as a better option than at least 7 goalies in the East? Or how about better than any of the 8 that made the post-season last year?
While everything you say may be true, what Reimer does not do is cost us a premium package. The Leafs last season held a playoff spot for quite awhile, they had a 15-20 game collapse that can't be solely blamed on goaltending. If Reimer can bring his save percentage up to say .912-.915 and we start to play team defense it will be a drastic improvement. Does it guarantee playoffs? No. But niether does Luongo and it doesn't cost us anything let alone the king's ransom Gillis is asking.

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11-10-2012, 12:39 PM
  #842
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If I am Burke I want to know what I see from the defense in 5 years before I ever entertain the idea of Luongo in net, because he is going to be a significant portion of your salary cap space. No doubt all goaltenders require a competent and defensively-above-average defense in front of them, but if you don't have that, do you really need a premier (pricey) goaltender not named Brodeur anyway, particularly with the question from your top nine that require salary to fix?

Let me ask you Leaf fans instead of supplying an outside opinion this one honest question: Is your top 4 there yet? If not, why even bother with Lou? I think you can get more miles in the win/loss ratio from upgrades outside of the net for the same general salary hit.

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11-10-2012, 12:44 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
If I am Burke I want to know what I see from the defense in 5 years before I ever entertain the idea of Luongo in net, because he is going to be a significant portion of your salary cap space. No doubt all goaltenders require a competent and defensively-above-average defense in front of them, but if you don't have that, do you really need a premier (pricey) goaltender not named Brodeur anyway, particularly with the question from your top nine that require salary to fix?

Let me ask you Leaf fans instead of supplying an outside opinion this one honest question: Is your top 4 there yet? If not, why even bother with Lou? I think you can get more miles in the win/loss ratio from upgrades outside of the net for the same general salary hit.
Gunnarsson, Phaneuf, Gardiner, and Liles seems like a perfectly respectable top-4, imo. They'll also have prospects like Holzer, Rielly, Percy, Blacker, etc being able to join the club fairly soon.

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11-10-2012, 12:48 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
If I am Burke I want to know what I see from the defense in 5 years before I ever entertain the idea of Luongo in net, because he is going to be a significant portion of your salary cap space. No doubt all goaltenders require a competent and defensively-above-average defense in front of them, but if you don't have that, do you really need a premier (pricey) goaltender not named Brodeur anyway, particularly with the question from your top nine that require salary to fix?

Let me ask you Leaf fans instead of supplying an outside opinion this one honest question: Is your top 4 there yet? If not, why even bother with Lou? I think you can get more miles in the win/loss ratio from upgrades outside of the net for the same general salary hit.
Significant? 5.33 isn't significant compared to 6.5 for Phaneuf, 5.5 for Grabovski or even 5.4 for Kessel (I think Kessel is the only one listed that has the potential to win a game single handedly for the Leafs, or at least is the best option at the moment). EDIT: My point with this that two of three examples of more expensive players then Lu were signed by Burke, and one of them, making roughly the same cap hit, is no where near as valuable a player. The third was traded for by Burke, so he's embraced the salary and cap hit. This doesn't bode well for "good signings" if Burke is still in charge later in my eyes, but that's purely speculative.

Yes, I understand you mean 5 years down the future when...well who knows. But better defense or defensive systems can work both ways. I mean we knock guys like Smith, Elliot or other benefactors of defensive systems, but if they weren't at least above average goalies, then things could fall apart as a system.

Cloutier was an "average" goalie for us, and yes, we had some success, but even if we had a Carlyle-esque system, he'd still be giving up bad goals, even assuming the defense can handle the responsability. I can definately think of a few of those types of goals Reimer's given up (as with every goalie to some degree) but speaking from experience...no matter how good your teams play is away from the puck, with an average goalie, there are some goals the defense can't be held responsable for (ie Lidstrom from the blueline).

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11-10-2012, 12:49 PM
  #845
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
If I am Burke I want to know what I see from the defense in 5 years before I ever entertain the idea of Luongo in net, because he is going to be a significant portion of your salary cap space. No doubt all goaltenders require a competent and defensively-above-average defense in front of them, but if you don't have that, do you really need a premier (pricey) goaltender not named Brodeur anyway, particularly with the question from your top nine that require salary to fix?

Let me ask you Leaf fans instead of supplying an outside opinion this one honest question: Is your top 4 there yet? If not, why even bother with Lou? I think you can get more miles in the win/loss ratio from upgrades outside of the net for the same general salary hit.
I think our top 4 question is two fold, if Liles plays as he did before the concussion and if gardiner doesn't have a sophmore slump, then it is on it's way. We do not have as bad a D as some make it out, but they definatly need a better system and some forward support wouldn't hurt either, lol. However I am more interested in how it is when some of our propects start to push, as competition is a good thing!!!

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11-10-2012, 12:52 PM
  #846
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I think our top 4 question is two fold, if Liles plays as he did before the concussion and if gardiner doesn't have a sophmore slump, then it is on it's way. We do not have as bad a D as some make it out, but they definatly need a better system and some forward support wouldn't hurt either, lol. However I am more interested in how it is when some of our propects start to push, as competition is a good thing!!!
TBH I thought that Toronto's defensive depth was a strength of theirs, even post-Schenn. Phaneuf takes a lot of crap but he's better then average for a top pairing D. Liles is effective if used properly, and the kids are looking good going forward. Franson isn't stellar, but he's cheap. Komisarek is really the only downside, and even then that's like 90% cap hit trouble.

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11-10-2012, 01:15 PM
  #847
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Significant? 5.33 isn't significant compared to 6.5 for Phaneuf, 5.5 for Grabovski or even 5.4 for Kessel (I think Kessel is the only one listed that has the potential to win a game single handedly for the Leafs, or at least is the best option at the moment). EDIT: My point with this that two of three examples of more expensive players then Lu were signed by Burke, and one of them, making roughly the same cap hit, is no where near as valuable a player. The third was traded for by Burke, so he's embraced the salary and cap hit. This doesn't bode well for "good signings" if Burke is still in charge later in my eyes, but that's purely speculative.

Yes, I understand you mean 5 years down the future when...well who knows. But better defense or defensive systems can work both ways. I mean we knock guys like Smith, Elliot or other benefactors of defensive systems, but if they weren't at least above average goalies, then things could fall apart as a system.

Cloutier was an "average" goalie for us, and yes, we had some success, but even if we had a Carlyle-esque system, he'd still be giving up bad goals, even assuming the defense can handle the responsability. I can definately think of a few of those types of goals Reimer's given up (as with every goalie to some degree) but speaking from experience...no matter how good your teams play is away from the puck, with an average goalie, there are some goals the defense can't be held responsable for (ie Lidstrom from the blueline).
Well Cogburn, here are my thoughts. I have only ONE issue wth Luongo and it isn't caphit...contract...age....ability or actual salary, it is the cost to aquire. The Leafs simply can't afford to even come close to Gillis' asking price. To be honest, i don't know who can.

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11-10-2012, 01:31 PM
  #848
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Vancouver is still nothing compared to Toronto pressure wise.
Ive seen SO many Leaf fans claim this but its total garbage.

Are you telling me the pressure in Toronto where making the playoffs will be a success is more pressure packed then Vancouver where its Cup or Bust?



You can think that but its no where close to being true.

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11-10-2012, 01:42 PM
  #849
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Ive seen SO many Leaf fans claim this but its total garbage.

Are you telling me the pressure in Toronto where making the playoffs will be a success is more pressure packed then Vancouver where its Cup or Bust?



You can think that but its no where close to being true.
I'm with you here, if Luongo gets us to the playoffs....he is a God here. Guys like Belfour, Joseph, Potvin and Palmateer are still on a podium with fans. I love all of those guys, but they didn't win squat.

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11-10-2012, 01:54 PM
  #850
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Lu would be the best player on the leafs, he seemed to do better when he was the guy in Van and Florida. Even though they're a much worse team, Leafs may actually make Lu look better. He is at his best when kept busy.

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