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Otts vs Pitts

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Old
11-10-2012, 09:05 AM
  #51
IHWR
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I think a Maatta for Noesen swap would be a square deal neil all the way around.

The Harrington for Puempel swap isn't terrible either though.

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Old
11-10-2012, 09:09 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
I think a Maatta for Noesen swap would be a square deal neil all the way around.

The Harrington for Puempel swap isn't terrible either though.
Noesen for Maatta is fair.

No on Harrington. He's receiving the Despres style overhyping.

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Old
11-10-2012, 09:14 AM
  #53
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I would give Kristo and Ellis/Dietz for Despres from Montreal. That is about it. I dont think Pttsburgh fans are fairly estimating the value of Despres. I have not seen one projection that has him at a top -pairing defenseman.

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11-10-2012, 11:42 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post


no. Just no.

2nd pairing defensive d-man.

The guy has hardly any offensive potential.
Actually, I have as good a handle on Despres' potential as anyone. He was the Pens' best defenseman outside of Letang in his call-ups last year in good part because he used his skating and passing to jumpstart transition, and the two worked seamlessly together. No reason why his reasonable ceiling shouldn't be ~30 points in the NHL.

Of course, his draft position, junior, and international success would've suggested as much.

Quote:
Michalek and Stone for Despres is absolutely ridiculous. OMG.

35 goal winger + potential 1st line winger for potential 2nd pairing d-man. Mother of god.
That's true.

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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
The Harrington for Puempel swap isn't terrible either though.
I wouldn't touch it.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 11-10-2012 at 11:48 AM.
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Old
11-10-2012, 11:56 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

Michalek and Stone for Despres is absolutely ridiculous. OMG.

35 goal winger + potential 1st line winger for potential 2nd pairing d-man. Mother of god.
While I agree that this proposal is pretty extreme, to say that Stone is a potential 1st liner while Despres is only a potential 2nd pairing d-man is a bit unfair. In the minimal amount of games Despres has had in the NHL so far he showed he was capable of playing up to 2nd pairing minutes already. In only 18 games. He's only 21.

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11-10-2012, 12:07 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Actually, I have as good a handle on Despres' potential as anyone. He was the Pens' best defenseman outside of Letang in his call-ups last year in good part because he used his skating and passing to jumpstart transition, and the two worked seamlessly together. No reason why his reasonable ceiling shouldn't be ~30 points in the NHL.

Of course, his draft position, junior, and international success would've suggested as much.
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Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr68 View Post
While I agree that this proposal is pretty extreme, to say that Stone is a potential 1st liner while Despres is only a potential 2nd pairing d-man is a bit unfair. In the minimal amount of games Despres has had in the NHL so far he showed he was capable of playing up to 2nd pairing minutes already. In only 18 games. He's only 21.
Disagree completely.

Stone had 123 points in his last junior year, which is exceptional. He's big and has a variety of offensive weapons. 1st line potential for sure.

When was the last time a Penguin had that many points in junior? Sidney Crosby.


Despres never really came close to a point per game in junior. He had 15 points in the AHL last year. I have a VERY hard time believing he has 30 point potential in the NHL. Even if he did, he would have to be Very good defensively to be considered a 1st pairing d-man.

Despres was sheltered big time in the NHL in 2011-12. He started very few shifts in the defensive zone. He played against very weak competition, always the opponent's worst players. How can you possibly say he's shown the level of a 2nd pair guy already? If he did, he would have played full time in the playoffs. If he did, Engelland and Lovejoy would not be ahead of him on the depth chart.

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11-10-2012, 12:15 PM
  #57
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Puempel + 3rd for Morrow.

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11-10-2012, 12:34 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Despres' upside is a huge, great-skating two-way top-pairing defenseman. What do you think Stone's upside is?
If that is Despres' upside, than Stone's upside is a 35 - 40 goal winger. Heck, Stone probably has a better chance of scoring 35 or more than Despres does of being a top pairing defenceman. And even if you equate the value of Despres and Stone (I don't), surely even the most dedicated Pens fan would agree that adding Michalek, a 35 goal big fast power forward with a very good 2-way game makes the OP ridiculously in favour of PIT.

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Old
11-10-2012, 12:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I wouldn't touch it.
Yeah that's fine. But it's fair value and given the Pens need for winger prospects with offensive upside and their cupboard full of defensemen who are better than Harrington it's the kind of trade that would make our depth chart stronger.

But if you aren't a fan of the pieces that's fine.

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11-10-2012, 01:30 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Disagree completely.

Stone had 123 points in his last junior year, which is exceptional. He's big and has a variety of offensive weapons. 1st line potential for sure.

When was the last time a Penguin had that many points in junior? Sidney Crosby.
Scoring big in junior two years after your draft year is great, but hardly indicative on its own of reasonable NHL potential. We know, we drafted Casey Pierro-Zabotel and Luca Caputi.

For the record, I do like Stone, and I think if everything goes right for him (including skating improvement) he could be a scoring wing. But there's a reason why he's a 6.5C and Despres is a 7.5B.

Quote:
Despres never really came close to a point per game in junior. He had 15 points in the AHL last year. I have a VERY hard time believing he has 30 point potential in the NHL. Even if he did, he would have to be Very good defensively to be considered a 1st pairing d-man.
Actually he did. I have no problems with Despres' production as a rookie AHLer in 44 games.

And for the record, he did play very well defensively in his call-ups.

Quote:
Despres was sheltered big time in the NHL in 2011-12. He started very few shifts in the defensive zone. He played against very weak competition, always the opponent's worst players. How can you possibly say he's shown the level of a 2nd pair guy already? If he did, he would have played full time in the playoffs. If he did, Engelland and Lovejoy would not be ahead of him on the depth chart.
If you were going to diminish a rookie defenseman's performance based on zone starts and QoC relative to other defensemen on his team, you'd have a hard time justifying all the praise for Jared Cowen this past year. Of course, that's why actually watching the player in question is critical.

As for the depth chart, Despres was making the most of his call-up until he got injured, after which veteran-deferential Bylsma was hesitant to change his line-up. The Pens board certainly wanted him there.

Do yourself a favour and make a point of watching him play when the NHL starts up again.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 11-10-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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Old
11-10-2012, 01:38 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
Yeah that's fine. But it's fair value and given the Pens need for winger prospects with offensive upside and their cupboard full of defensemen who are better than Harrington it's the kind of trade that would make our depth chart stronger.

But if you aren't a fan of the pieces that's fine.
I consider Harrington a better prospect than most. I think he's as good a bet to be a good NHLer as any of them, to be honest, and a shutdown presence we could really use on the big club in a couple years.

I wouldn't deal him for a guy like Puempel, who seems to have stagnated since his draft year and looks to have a long road to becoming any kind of NHLer. If we're going to start dealing for forward prospects, I would hope the return would be better than what we already have in the organization.

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Old
11-10-2012, 01:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Despres never really came close to a point per game in junior. He had 15 points in the AHL last year. I have a VERY hard time believing he has 30 point potential in the NHL. Even if he did, he would have to be Very good defensively to be considered a 1st pairing d-man..
Funny, Chara didn't even have .5 PPG in his draft year as an overager AND had a mere 17 points in 73 AHL games...

Want to venture a guess an how many seasons this big-bodied shutdown defender scored 30+ points?

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11-10-2012, 02:21 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post

For the record, I do like Stone, and I think if everything goes right for him (including skating improvement) he could be a scoring wing. But there's a reason why he's a 6.5C and Despres is a 7.5B.
Check. Mate.

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Old
11-10-2012, 03:11 PM
  #64
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Found this interesting


68. Simon Despres, Defense, Pittsburgh Penguins
69. Corban Knight, Right Wing, Florida Panthers
70. Mark Stone, Right Wing, Ottawa Senators


http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1381

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Old
11-10-2012, 04:53 PM
  #65
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Check. Mate.
If Stone would have been a higher pick (6th round), his rating would have been higher

"The following season began with Stone ranked in the top 50 on several major scouting lists for the upcoming 2010 NHL Entry Draft. Suffering a concussion and thumb injury during the season, he was limited to 28 points (11 goals and 17 assists) over 39 games, hindered his final draft ranking among scouts"

His skating was a problem as well but he worked hard on it.

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11-10-2012, 04:55 PM
  #66
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Found this interesting


68. Simon Despres, Defense, Pittsburgh Penguins
69. Corban Knight, Right Wing, Florida Panthers
70. Mark Stone, Right Wing, Ottawa Senators


http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1381
I am not that impress:

15. Mika Zibanejad, Center, Ottawa Senators

43. Cody Ceci, Defense, Ottawa Senators

51. Jakob Silfverberg, Right Wing, Ottawa Senators

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Old
11-10-2012, 09:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Found this interesting


68. Simon Despres, Defense, Pittsburgh Penguins
69. Corban Knight, Right Wing, Florida Panthers
70. Mark Stone, Right Wing, Ottawa Senators


http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1381
#68 overall straight up for #70 overall? Are you nuts!?

Edit: On a side note, I do think that Stone is under-rated across the hockey world due to his 7th round draft status. His skating has improved a lot since he was drafted, his numbers speak for themselves, and he was one of the best forwards at the world juniors. It says a lot for a guy to be rated #70 this year when he wouldn't have been in the top 500 two years ago.


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11-10-2012, 09:48 PM
  #68
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no. Just no.

2nd pairing defensive d-man.

The guy has hardly any offensive potential.

Michalek and Stone for Despres is absolutely ridiculous. OMG.

35 goal winger + potential 1st line winger for potential 2nd pairing d-man. Mother of god.
Despres should top out as a #3 or #4, but making the claim he "hardly has any offensive potential" is akin to calling Stone a "potential energy line role player with a limited skill set".

Despres biggest asset is in fact his offensive potential and it isn't a reach to think he could be a second pairing guy who can put up 30-35 points.

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Old
11-10-2012, 10:18 PM
  #69
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Ottawa shouldn't consider moving Stone. He is the biggest standout I've seen in Bingo this year.

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11-11-2012, 09:12 AM
  #70
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Ottawa shouldn't consider moving Stone. He is the biggest standout I've seen in Bingo this year.
For as much as either fan base on here "wouldn't do it"...a Stone for Despres swap is probably pretty close to market value.

Also, the biggest standout for the B-Sens this year so far has been Robin Lehner. He's the reason they're winning games.

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11-11-2012, 11:24 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
For as much as either fan base on here "wouldn't do it"...a Stone for Despres swap is probably pretty close to market value.

Also, the biggest standout for the B-Sens this year so far has been Robin Lehner. He's the reason they're winning games.
I am sure he was referring to forwards only.

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Old
11-11-2012, 11:27 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by guyzeur View Post
If Stone would have been a higher pick (6th round), his rating would have been higher

"The following season began with Stone ranked in the top 50 on several major scouting lists for the upcoming 2010 NHL Entry Draft. Suffering a concussion and thumb injury during the season, he was limited to 28 points (11 goals and 17 assists) over 39 games, hindered his final draft ranking among scouts"

His skating was a problem as well but he worked hard on it.
I was kidding

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:25 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
For as much as either fan base on here "wouldn't do it"...a Stone for Despres swap is probably pretty close to market value.

Also, the biggest standout for the B-Sens this year so far has been Robin Lehner. He's the reason they're winning games.
1. I said nothing about it being market value or not.

2. FFS, are you actually trying to dictate what I saw as the standout in the games that I witnessed?

Lehner is good, but Stone impressed me more than he, Z, or Silfverberg did.

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11-11-2012, 02:45 PM
  #74
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1. I said nothing about it being market value or not.

2. FFS, are you actually trying to dictate what I saw as the standout in the games that I witnessed?

Lehner is good, but Stone impressed me more than he, Z, or Silfverberg did.
1. The first part of my post wasn't directed at you specifically. Just that like how Sens fans don't want to move Stone, Pens fans don't want to deal Despres. But in reality, the two have pretty similar value even though they play drastically different roles. But like always, each side is going to value the commodity they know and are familiar with more, which is why I said neither fanbase would be on board.

2. I'm not trying to tell you what you saw. Be pleased as punch with how Stone has played in his handful of AHL games so far. And yeah...of all the high profile offensive prospects that Bingo has added this season I think you have a strong case to argue Stone has been the best so far. But Lehner is undoubtably that team's MVP so far this year, he's cementing himself as one of the best, if not the best, goalie prospects in hockey. I wasn't putting words in your mouth or knocking your opinion of Stone ya dope, I was crediting Lehner's strong play this year. Either that or learn to pluralize the word "standout".

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11-11-2012, 02:53 PM
  #75
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2. I'm not trying to tell you what you saw. Be pleased as punch with how Stone has played in his handful of AHL games so far. And yeah...of all the high profile offensive prospects that Bingo has added this season I think you have a strong case to argue Stone has been the best so far. But Lehner is undoubtably that team's MVP so far this year, he's cementing himself as one of the best, if not the best, goalie prospects in hockey. I wasn't putting words in your mouth or knocking your opinion of Stone ya dope, I was crediting Lehner's strong play this year. Either that or learn to pluralize the word "standout".
I'm not a Sens fan. I'm basing it only off the three games he played against Norfolk. Lehner wasn't much of a factor in any of those contests. I can't speak to how well he's played outside of those games.

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