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THN: Brampton Battalion relocation proves Toronto isn't a hockey town

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Old
11-10-2012, 07:08 AM
  #226
Puckclektr
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Originally Posted by Canadian Airlines View Post
I grew up in Brampton. Brampton is NOT part of the GTA. Neither are Mississauga nor Hamilton.

Toronto is the greatest hockey town in the world, bar none.
Your wrong Brampton and Mississauga are part of the gta. But you are right on Hamilton. Younwould think being from Brampton you would know that.

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11-10-2012, 07:11 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
I don't think junior hockey is very attractive to people in the first place. Toronto is a big city and the only city in Canada that has MLB, NBA and the NHL (no matter how bad the attendance of MLB and the NBA teams get if they aren't doing good).

The only thing that can be deduced from this is that fans near or in Toronto are fans of NHL/Leafs hockey first and then every other league.

If Morgan Rielly played for the Brampton Battalions, you sure as heck could bet that it will sell out every night.

There are nearly 5-6 OHL teams within driving distance from Toronto. If they all had to relocate, I'd see it as a problem but just because one team has to relocate, doesn't mean Toronto isn't a hockey town.

As far as the Marlies are concerned...they were downright terrible at first, our best prospect was a guy who took naked pictures of himself, and the team was a mess. During this lockout, the team has gained some good prospects, season ticket sales have increased 30% because of their playoff run.

MLSE does bleed money because of the Marlies..but in the end the AHL is a development league and having your prospects within walking distance to the ACC is not a perk every team can have or afford to have.
If Morgan Reilly played for Brampton they would not sell out. Went to a a few marlies games the year before last and was expecting there to be many fans there to see the likes of kadri etc. probably about a thousand people at all three games that year. Two of them on a Saturday afternoon.

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11-10-2012, 07:24 AM
  #228
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As has been said, Brampton isn't even in Toronto. I don't know much about the Battalion or Brampton itself, but as people said it's largely an immigrant population so it makes sense that hockey isn't super popular seeing as a good amount of its citizens come from non-hockey regions.

As for the GTA itself, it has more competition than any other market. There are literally so many junior teams in the actual GTA, plus those a bit further out like in Guelph, Kitchener, Niagara etc.

As I grow up in Mississauga, I can say that there is a solid hockey culture here. Big minor hockey league with teams in each smaller area/town. Mississauga does have a large immigrant population just like in Brampton, but still a large wealthy, caucasian population too (mostly in South Mississauga). The Icedogs used to have great attendance IIRC.

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11-10-2012, 07:29 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Toronto isn't a good hockey town? Right. When was the last time the Leafs weren't sold out? junior hockey is an afterthought really. There is almost too much hockey to cover in this area. Toronto is also the only city in Canada that has MLB and the NBA as well. There are plenty of options in this town and lets not forget as it's been pointed out, the city has a million different cultures and lets face it, hockey is without a doubt, a sport dominated by whites and followed by whites. Go to Brampton, a city with a huge Indian and Pakistani population, what are they watching or playing? cricket. That's just one example. There are so many cultures here, so many teams to follow, some of the best nightlife in the world...you can't expect every junior team to succeed. Junior teams do extremely well in small towns and it's pretty simple why; they have a much less saturated market. If you live in say, Owen Sound, chances are you'll at least follow the local team, there's not a lot of options. It's also foolish for people outside of this city to believe that everyone in the GTA is a Leafs fan. I can't give an exact number here but I'd estimate that probably 35% percent of hockey fans here aren't Leafs fans. Keep in mind, generations ago there were plenty of original 6 fans spread throughout the country and those people tend to pass that on to their kids. I have plenty of friends who are Habs fans,Wings fans,Bruins fans and even friends who are fans of expansion teams like the Oilers,Canucks,Senators,Penguins etc etc etc. A junior team leaving doesn't prove anything. Go to any bar here on any given night and look at what's on all the TV's. It's an NHL town, not a junior town, there's a big difference there.
I agree and I have been saying this for years. Toronto is not a leaf city. The Leafs although the most loved in Toronto are also the most hated. I was saying about 25-35% of NHL hockey fans in Toronto are not Leaf fans. It may even be around 50% or more. The amount of Leaf fans increases with success, but those are not true fans. I actually have gone down my first list of facebook friends and have gone through the first 50 hockey fans or are true fans. 12 Leaf fans and 38 non Leaf fans. That is all Toronto area people. I never realised the number was so high. Last night as per my post last page I thought of the first 20 random friends that are die hard hockey fans and only 5 of them were Leaf fans. 15 were fans of other teams. This is why another team would work in the area as people want to support a local team but not the leafs.

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11-10-2012, 07:33 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Oshawa is in the GTA
Guelph is not.

more clarification.
Although Oshawa has it's own CMA, it is a part of the GTA. It is not a part of the census metro area for Toronto. But once again it is in the GTA


Source. I have been dealing with Canadian statistics and numbers for over 15 years now.

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11-10-2012, 07:36 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
I'll still say the State of the team plays a huge part.
It does, but by my count these are fans that are fans year round, win or lose. The number does rise when the Leafs are doing good. But those are not true hockey fans.

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11-10-2012, 07:53 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
That was my point. It was an article, he should have done his homework and report it accurately. Nothing wrong if he wants to push that premise about Toronto, but I do have a problem with journalism that pushes an agenda above all else of acknowledging details. If you support shoddy journalism and feel that journalists shouldn't be called out for the inaccuracies in their published bodies of work, well then good for you I guess.
I guess the problem is you think everything has an agenda, when I can call a crappy article a crappy article and move with my day.




Quote:
What a nonsense response. NHL is a business that endorses a sport called hockey. How do you find it convenient to separate the fact that hockey is the product of the NHL? What were you saying about people love being difficult for not reason? lol
You said the NHL is hockey. That isn't all it is right?

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11-10-2012, 07:57 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Puckclektr View Post
Born and raised in Newmarket area. Lots of family in NYC area and I visited and still do all the time
Born Downtown, raised in Oakville. Live in Hamilton now although I am leaving next year, hopefully for NYC. I think it is a way stronger sports market. The Rangers and Leafs parallel each in so many ways.

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11-10-2012, 08:54 AM
  #234
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How can Toronto not be a hockey city? This article is extremely silly. There are so many factors (all explained within this thread) that can explain why a junior team can struggle that it makes me wonder if the author gave a single thought to it.

People commenting ''its not a hockey city, its a Leafs city'' (and I've heard the same about Montreal being a Habs city) are only half right. The thing is Leafs (and Habs) are hockey teams.

Its like saying someone isn't a music lover because he nearly only listens to one genre of music but does so all the time and knows everything about that genre.

Besides, is attendance to junior games even relevant in testing peoples' interest towards hockey? I only go watch my local junior team (LHJMQ Ramparts) a few times a year, some years I didn't go at all. If there was an NHL team here I likely wouldn't go to a single junior game. Does that mean I'm not a hockey fan? If it makes no sense on a individual level then it likely doesn't make much sense on a global one.

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11-10-2012, 09:33 AM
  #235
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Powerade Centre almost always has more visiting fans for OHL games and MSL lacrosse games. It was just never an ideal location. I will miss "one minute 'til cease fire" , though.

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11-10-2012, 09:40 AM
  #236
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Name me 5 that are supporting a plethora of non-pro teams.

It's hard being the mecca, but we will make it.

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11-10-2012, 11:14 AM
  #237
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A few thoughts..

I think Toronto is most definitely a hockey town. Using the example of a failing OHL team on the outskirts of the "GTA" to prove otherwise is wrong. When the Majors returned along with the two Peel region teams (see that, Peel Region not the City of Toronto but I digress) it was too much too fast. I was a hardcore Majors fan when they were in T.O right down to watching them on Rogers and having my old science teacher doing colour commentary. They weren't supposed to stay at the old St. Mike's arena for long but couldn't find adequate land to build a new barn on. Then came Melnyk, and while he helped the team in a tough spot he was a death knell for the team in Toronto. Having a team owned by the Leafs biggest rival wasn't lost on people and certainly not the Leafs who didn't want his team in MLG. If the school somehow had of been able to hold onto the team I really do think they would have been bought by the Leafs and would currently be playing in a refurbished MLG to good crowds looking for some nostalgia and good hockey. I also think they would have hosted a Mem cup and it would have been a much greater success then the one I attended at the Hersh which I still think gets a much harsher rep around here than it should.

Many people were also confused by the affiliation to the school, thinking it was a high school team or something. They also suffered from a lack of marquee players. While guys like Tim Brent, Mark Popovic, Kevin Klein, Frank Lukes, Daryl Boyce, Ryan Wilson, Mike Haley and others gave their all for the double blue and had some success it wasn't until a couple years ago that the team finally had a player taken in the first round. Recruiting high end players was never Dave Camerons forte.

I can't really speak for the Ice Dogs or Battalion because I didn't care for either of those teams but there are some obvious things in their history and make up that have inhibited their success. Don Cherry was horrible for the Dogs. From the dumb portrait of the queen to the goon squads which abhorred the import draft and produced seasons of 3 and 4 wins I can see why they never really caught on. I hate the visual look of both the Hersh and the Bunker. Way too much harsh concrete and plastic and absolutely zero soul. They both look like they were designed by students pulling an all nighter on a deadline. They get the job done but offer nothing else for patrons.

Once the Majors left I still attended games periodically. But rather than a short subway ride to St Clair West station I now had to drive all the way out to Mississauga. Friday night games? Forget about it. Trying to fight westbound 401 traffic is murder and it would often take over an hour to get to games. Weekend games were okay but the convenience of going to a barn with soul and having a beer watching the game and being home for dinner was gone. Going to Brampton for a game was even less of an option for me. With all due respect to any Troops fans on here the Powerade Centre has to be the ugliest arena I have ever seen. So cold and uninviting. I don't know what they were thinking with the giant concrete slabs in the end zone, ugh.

When the Majors hosted the Mem Cup I can honestly say Melnyk did absolutely no promotion for it in Toronto. If you didn't happen upon the Majors on one of occasions that Rogers cable showed them or tune into Sportsnet on a Friday night then good luck. I'd say most in T.O had no idea the event was even in the area and that falls on Melnyk who had washed his hands and punched out long ago. But again, no offense to Missy but who wants to go out there? Few bars or social things to do, ugh it's upsetting to think about it. Talk about being set up to fail.

Kids, mens and womans leagues in Toronto are probably the biggest and best in the world. The GTHL has been on fire in the last half decade and seems to only be getting better in terms of producing elite talent. I see a number of young teens relocating here with their families just to get a chance to play. The Mens leagues here are pretty top notch if you ask me. The thursday night "A" league at York is populated by former JR players and the calibre of hockey is great. Most "B" divisions are AA and AAA players and even down in the "D" and "E" I'm proud to say I see the majority of players are adult players getting into the game for the first time. There are rinks across the city that are active and even a number of private rinks that weren't listed on a link someone provided that offer kids and mens leagues. I noticed a user who was Bruins fan saying something to the effect that calibre of hockey wasn't good where he played. But who cares? Shouldn't it just matter that people are playing? Also Toronto boasts a few fledgling womans leagues. I'd be interested to see how many other places offered that.

I think the Marlies are also improving. It's a slow process but people need to remember that team has only been in T.O a short time and it takes time for minor league teams to establish themselves no matter where they are. The Wolves were used as a comparision but they're a different animal all together. A former IHL team formed partially as a reaction to the penny pinching Wirtzs is different then a team still trying to find traction and an identity in Toronto. The Ricoh is a great rink and I think the Marlies are on the right path and the Leafs are finally starting to get it right. Give them 3-5 years and I think people will be surprised. I'm pleased with them being in the middle third of attendance.

I also believe that if the OHL were to try again in T.O it can work. They need a rink and solid ownership (the Leafs) and a solid identity and plan. That said, it'll probably be a few years before that is revisited and I have no doubt that media like Rory Boylan, Cox and others (so called JR hockey experts aka guys who get most of their info from message boards just like this) will crap all over it and turn off a good amount of people before a puck is even dropped.

Thanks to anyone who actually read all of this lol. I'm not very active on here but if anyone replies to this I'll do my best to check back. I just had to defend my city.

I'm not trying to say Toronto is the best, but to say it isn't a hockey city is wrong.


Last edited by You Like Boyce: 11-10-2012 at 11:20 AM.
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11-10-2012, 11:36 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Kamal007 View Post
And further more, its pretty dumb to say that people in Brampton want to watch cricket, just because they are of Indian descent. I would say the vast majority of people here are bigger hockey fans then they are cricket fans. Most people see cricket maybe once every 4 years for the world cup (assuming its every 4 years, I don't know), they watch hockey year round. Just because Brampton can't sell out OHL games, doesn't mean that it wants to watch cricket instead of hockey.
...
Sorry for the rant, just a hockey crazed Punjabi poster from Brampton clarifying some things.
Glad you stepped up to clarify this.

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11-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #239
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Montreal had 18000 thousand at ahl game last night

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11-10-2012, 12:43 PM
  #240
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Toronto #1 pro hockey city in the world.

As for any levels below that, well............... Toronto #1 pro hockey city in the world.

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11-10-2012, 12:47 PM
  #241
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Montreal had 18000 thousand at ahl game last night
Queue the Leafs sell out every night jokes.

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11-10-2012, 01:03 PM
  #242
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The Toronto Maple Leafs prove Toronto is a hockey town.

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11-10-2012, 01:05 PM
  #243
Stanley Foobrick
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
The Toronto Maple Leafs prove Toronto is a hockey town.
This statement right here is the exact reason why you can not have a level headed discussion on this topic with a Leafs fan.

Blinders work as blinders do.

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11-10-2012, 01:07 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
How can Toronto not be a hockey city? This article is extremely silly. There are so many factors (all explained within this thread) that can explain why a junior team can struggle that it makes me wonder if the author gave a single thought to it.

People commenting ''its not a hockey city, its a Leafs city'' (and I've heard the same about Montreal being a Habs city) are only half right. The thing is Leafs (and Habs) are hockey teams.

Its like saying someone isn't a music lover because he nearly only listens to one genre of music but does so all the time and knows everything about that genre.

Besides, is attendance to junior games even relevant in testing peoples' interest towards hockey? I only go watch my local junior team (LHJMQ Ramparts) a few times a year, some years I didn't go at all. If there was an NHL team here I likely wouldn't go to a single junior game. Does that mean I'm not a hockey fan? If it makes no sense on a individual level then it likely doesn't make much sense on a global one.
Yup. It's a very stupid argument. You don;t call a city that sell-out for decades a mediocre team with the highest ticket prices a non hockey city because a suburb far outside the city is struggling. Are the Brampton Batallion a better example than the Leafs, really?

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11-10-2012, 01:07 PM
  #245
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One thing I do find funny is that people say that its Indian and Pakastani in brampton. How exactly is it pakastani? Last time I checked, its all Punjabi (a state in India) and some from the rest of India. Take a look at the Brampton Census:

http://www.brampton.ca/EN/Business/e...20Language.pdf

Of all the languages spoken at home in Brampton, 62% is English and 13% is Punjabi. The language of Pakistan, Urdu, is in at a gigantic 1.9%. Whereas other languages from India, such as Gujarati and Hindi are around the same percentage. To say that Brampton is largely Indian AND Pakistani is false, even though most people on here probably don't care that there is a difference, there is.

And further more, its pretty dumb to say that people in Brampton want to watch cricket, just because they are of Indian descent. I would say the vast majority of people here are bigger hockey fans then they are cricket fans. Most people see cricket maybe once every 4 years for the world cup (assuming its every 4 years, I don't know), they watch hockey year round. Just because Brampton can't sell out OHL games, doesn't mean that it wants to watch cricket instead of hockey. Hockey is huge here, just as it was in Mississauga when they lost 2 OHL teams in the last how many years?

Brampton, just like the rest of the GTA, is LEAF crazy. Leafs are huge here and just because 13% of the population speaks Punjabi at home, doesn't mean they don't love the Leafs. I mean, why else would CBC do Leaf broadcasts in Punjabi? For the Punjabi people in Vancouver? Lol hell no. They do it for the Punjabi people in the GTA, including Brampton. I mean, to say that Brampton's demographic prevented the Battalion from flourishing is simply dumb. Especially when CBC is providing broadcasts in that specific demographic's main language for LEAF games.

Sorry for the rant, just a hockey crazed Punjabi poster from Brampton clarifying some things.
1. I agree that Brampton is largely Indian immigrants from Punjab.

2. However, Punjabi is not limited to India. Pakistan's most populous state is Punjab -- Pakistan has its own Punjab. Pakistan Punjab makes up 55%+ of Pakistan's population, which is about 90 million people. Saying that Urdu is the language of Pakistan is similar to saying Hindi is the language of India. Both can be regarded as true, but there are also lots of regional languages in both India and Pakistan -- Punjabi being one of them.

3. I completely agree with what you are saying. To say people of Indian descent in Brampton are more interested in cricket than hockey is a joke. Sure, some of the adults that came as first generation immigrants (as adults), enjoy cricket. But the timezone differences and all of that make it essentially impossible. On top of that, some of the older immigrants do not have a "team" per se because some of them still have grievances with India over Operation Bluestar (i.e., the Khalistan movement and how the Indian government went about addressing it).

Most of the kids do not know much about cricket, other than watching the World Cup. And, the Leafs fanfare is crazy. Most of the kids are assimilated to a certain extent. They've even managed to get their parents into it. It's a wonderful thing to see, and while hockey in the US is largely an upper middle class white suburban sport, I think in Canada it has been like football in the US and it has made inroads across different communities. I think economics still plays some role from my experience, but a not insignificant amount of the middle class / upper-middle class Indians and Pakistanis in Brampton and Mississauga are Leafs fans.


Last edited by saffronleaf: 11-10-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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11-10-2012, 01:09 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
This statement right here is the exact reason why you can not have a level headed discussion on this topic with a Leafs fan.

Blinders work as blinders do.
So are we really going to ignore the Leafs and talk about Brampton Ontario proving Toronto isn't a hockey city?

The support of the Leafs for generations speaks for itself. You call a city that doesn't support hockey anywhere a non hockey city. Toronto does not fit that description at all.

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11-10-2012, 01:14 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
So are we really going to ignore the Leafs and talk about Brampton Ontario proving Toronto isn't a hockey city?

The support of the Leafs for generations speaks for itself. You call a city that doesn't support hockey anywhere a non hockey city. Toronto does not fit that description at all.
Every level under the NHL struggles in that city..... guess we are going to ignore that?

I've said that Toronto is the #1 pro hockey city in the world.... hard to argue that. But when you take into consideration all hockey where admission is required, all other levels fall vastly short of the Maple Leafs.

Yes Toronto loves it's hockey....... as long as the words "Maple Leafs" are on the jersey.

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11-10-2012, 01:21 PM
  #248
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Montreal had 18000 thousand at ahl game last night
Is it possible maybe they sold those tickets at a very low price or a lot of them were given away for free. In the end that doesn't prove they are a better Hockey market based on one AHL game if you are referring to the Toronto Marlies attendance.

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11-10-2012, 01:21 PM
  #249
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how many leagues have 2 teams 10 minutes apart? dumb article

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11-10-2012, 01:26 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Blue'sClues View Post
Every level under the NHL struggles in that city..... guess we are going to ignore that?

I've said that Toronto is the #1 pro hockey city in the world.... hard to argue that. But when you take into consideration all hockey where admission is required, all other levels fall vastly short of the Maple Leafs.

Yes Toronto loves it's hockey....... as long as the words "Maple Leafs" are on the jersey.
We aren't because there's an article in the hockey news about it.

I just find it odd, Brampton proves Toronto isn't a hockey town. The Leafs play hockey and are so succesful in terms of popularity/attendance. The NHL is hockey.

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