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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

To Make Whole or Make Partial -- THAT is the question (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXV

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Old
11-10-2012, 02:47 PM
  #176
rdawg1234
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Originally Posted by shmglsky View Post
So, you would rather have the players play the Gary Bettman game?

To date, the NHL has made zero concessions, only lessened their demands. Actual concessions would be agreeing to Sochi participation, giving players a say where franchises are located--which is greatly needed as the owners need help in this regard.

Players have the right not to agree to a subpar contract, especially one that is not bargained in good faith, just as surely the owners have the right to cancel the whole season, which opens a whole different set of circumstances. But I'm beginning to think that might be the best thing for the league. We would be playing hockey right if it wasn't for the Phoenixs, Nashvilles, and the Floridas of the NHL. There are smart people involved in this and the fact is not even 50-50 will save them. Unless there is adequate revenue sharing from the owners' proposal, which there is not, it's better for the players to hold out. Otherwise, we're back here in 6-8 years. And who wants to go through this again?
You're whole post is just flat out wrong.

Revenue sharing is no longer an issue for either side, both seem quite satisfied with how much revenue sharing is in the pot and it will only grow.

secondly the NHL HAS given concessions this time around, ability to ask for single hotel rooms, free tickets for family members, better healthcare, more medical people around etc. stuff that costs the NHL much more money.

Players choosing where to put franchises? that will happen what, once every CBA? that's a moot concession, because it wont even happen, there's only a certain amount of cities that can hold an nhl team.

the NHL has given alot in the sense that these players make guarenteed salaries and live in world class treatment, so they can give back a little salary and help to fix the system by giving in a bit on contract limits

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11-10-2012, 02:49 PM
  #177
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I think its hilarious how Steve and Bill have to try to calm down everyone and keep the groups together.

Good for them.

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11-10-2012, 02:49 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Bruins71 View Post
I think this will be the last contact we see for a month or so before they reconvene for a hail mary proposal from the PA in mid December which is then rejected, leading to the season being canceled.

Notie: please take notice of how my statement is prefaced with "I think".
Completely disagree. Negotiations will continue soon.

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11-10-2012, 02:50 PM
  #179
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The thing that bugs me is this whole time the players have said "We just want to play" "Why are we locked out, we could negotiate in good faith"

Here's the thing PA...... Donald Fehr IS Lockouts. It's what he does. The SECOND you hired him, you KNEW there was going to be a lockout.

They really need to stop with the "feel sorry for us, we are just guys who wanna play hockey" bs. They knew all along there was going to be a lockout.
Fehr has been involved in 8 CBA negotiations in his career. 6 of those resulted in work stoppages. Coincidence? Not hardly.....

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11-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmglsky View Post
So, you would rather have the players play the Gary Bettman game?

To date, the NHL has made zero concessions, only lessened their demands. Actual concessions would be agreeing to Sochi participation, giving players a say where franchises are located--which is greatly needed as the owners need help in this regard.
Honestly, what help could a bunch of high school graduate jocks be in selecting suitable markets for multi-million dollar business ventures?

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11-10-2012, 02:52 PM
  #181
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I still say this gets done for a dec. 1st start. We are ultimately not very far apart. It's just been a heated 24 hours or so.

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11-10-2012, 02:52 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Fehr has been involved in 8 CBA negotiations in his career. 6 of those resulted in work stoppages. Coincidence? Not hardly.....
Gary never had one NOT result in a work stoppage. Coincidence? Not Hardly

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11-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Bruins71 View Post
I think Fehr legitimately has the players brainwashed, it's actually kind of sad...
I think Fehr could sell snow to an eskimo......smoke and mirrors is forte.

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11-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmglsky View Post
So, you would rather have the players play the Gary Bettman game?

To date, the NHL has made zero concessions, only lessened their demands. Actual concessions would be agreeing to Sochi participation, giving players a say where franchises are located--which is greatly needed as the owners need help in this regard.
Players have the right not to agree to a subpar contract, especially one that is not bargained in good faith, just as surely the owners have the right to cancel the whole season, which opens a whole different set of circumstances. But I'm beginning to think that might be the best thing for the league. We would be playing hockey right if it wasn't for the Phoenixs, Nashvilles, and the Floridas of the NHL. There are smart people involved in this and the fact is not even 50-50 will save them. Unless there is adequate revenue sharing from the owners' proposal, which there is not, it's better for the players to hold out. Otherwise, we're back here in 6-8 years. And who wants to go through this again?
Give me a break, the players can have a say in where teams are moved to when they put their own money on the table to facilitate these moves. The NHL has made plenty of concessions so far: Increased revenue sharing, private hotel rooms, more physicians, family tickets and probably increased pensions. They even offered to give $211 million to the players as a transition to 50/50. To say they havent conceded anything is very disengenous but hey as long as Fehr's spin works he will continue to be justified doing it.

I fully support the owners in this if the system is out of whack they have every reason and right to try to fix it. If the players don't like it they are free to go to the KHL or to whatever other league they want. Or they run the risk of pissing the NHL off enough that they cancel the season and then the players lose bigtime.

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11-10-2012, 02:54 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
Gary never had one NOT result in a work stoppage. Coincidence? Not Hardly
One was a strike by the players

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11-10-2012, 02:54 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
One was a strike by the players

and 3 lockouts.

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11-10-2012, 02:55 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I still say this gets done for a dec. 1st start. We are ultimately not very far apart. It's just been a heated 24 hours or so.
They have never really been that far apart, at least not far enough apart to justify a lockout. The egos of the people involved are why it's gotten to this point and why I think we are likely to see another season canceled.

Notice: Please take note of how my last statement is prefaced with "I think".

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11-10-2012, 02:56 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
Gary never had one NOT result in a work stoppage. Coincidence? Not Hardly
Gary Bettman: 3 lockouts
Don Fehr: 6 work stoppages

Both need to go and let their right hand men pursue the rest of negotiations.

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11-10-2012, 02:58 PM
  #189
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Okay, so we now know a large portion of the nuts and bolts of what is on the table from the NHL.

Let's look at these very large numbers ona bit of a smaller scale.

What happens to NHL playerJohnSmith's contract? On July 2nd 2012 he signed a five year deal worth twenty five million bucks. It pays him five million in each of the five years. There is no bonus money involved. Straight salary.

What does his pay look like each year according to the NHL's projected numbers?

What does his pay look like each year according to the NHLPA projected numbers?

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11-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #190
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Honestly, what help could a bunch of high school graduate jocks be in selecting suitable markets for multi-million dollar business ventures?
Hockey players know where snow is. Buisnessmen seem to forget.

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11-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
One was a strike by the players
The strike came before Bettman, back when John Ziegler was still President. It was probably the thing that ended Ziegler's career.

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11-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
and 3 lockouts.
Tell me if you were commish in 2004 and players were getting 75% of league revenue but yet still refused to go to a cap system......what th heck would you do? Do you think he had a choice at all or was goodenow a big part of the blame.

And now you have Fehr who is even worse and wouldn't come to negotiate before the season started....the PA forces these lockouts....

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11-10-2012, 03:04 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Bruins71 View Post
I think this will be the last contact we see for a month or so before they reconvene for a hail mary proposal from the PA in mid December which is then rejected, leading to the season being canceled.

Notie: please take notice of how my statement is prefaced with "I think".
I hope you are right, I want the players to suffer. Let them crawl back on their hands and knees.

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11-10-2012, 03:06 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Bruins71 View Post
I love people saying this to Bruins fans to be edgy, as if we're going to get mad and defend him. Guess what, most Bruins fans (including myself) hate Jacobs and have hated him much longer than any other fans have.
not mad at Bruins fans. Just seeing a Bruin fan reminds me of this scum. It particularly bothers me when people blindly defend such greedy owners like him.

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11-10-2012, 03:09 PM
  #195
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not mad at Bruins fans. Just seeing a Bruin fan reminds me of this scum. It particularly bothers me when people blindly defend such greedy owners like him.
Dude, the man was booed at the 2011 banner raising ceremony (I was there booing him as well). I don't think you'll find a large contingency of Bruins fans who like the guy.

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11-10-2012, 03:09 PM
  #196
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I see this Fehr's "openness" as a part of a trick. It's the oldest thing in magic. You draw the attention to one place, but the trick itself happens somewhere else.

Yeah, the players can participate in the meetings. But is there one single player who has participated all the meetings? Do they fully actually understand everything? Can they even listen and stay focused that long, let alone are they able to understand what they've heard? Is there a single player who has the whole image what has happened during the process. Or is it still Mr Fehr who give them carefully selected pieces and tells them what ACTUALLY happened?

Oh gosh, I've turned some anti Fehrish conspiracy theorist... Got to stop now and get a life.

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11-10-2012, 03:17 PM
  #197
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Ok here's some numbers. These are numbers by year from Capgeek. Fehr's numbers in this memo are in brackets. My numbers are higher so they should be considered to be a more conservative estimate.

2012: $1.8B committed. 13% = $229M (231)
2013: $1.4B committed. 13% = $176M (162)
2014: $0.9B committed. 13% = $119M (97)
2015: $0.7B committed. 13% = $88M (65)
2016: $0.5B committed. 13% = $60M (37)

If you add up the sum of the monies that would be 'made whole':

229 + 176 + 119 + 88 +60 = $673M

If you take off the last year, it's $613M ($592M Fehr). I'm going to assume now that where the $600M figure comes from.

What the NHL is saying right now then is that it will put $149M in the first year and $62M in the second year. With flat revenue growth and 5% growth thereafter, the split with these numbers is 54%, 51%, 50% - the much heralded 'soft landing'. Note that to get year 2 numbers I assumed that the league would spend 100% of the available cap space - which they should under a linked system.

Under this scenario, year 3 players split should be $1.75B but $900M would have come off the books since then so remaining big deals should fit under the TRUE 50/50 cap. This is a certainty because the player dollars removed in UFA are absolute - revenue would have to shrink drastically to not accommodate that drop, and new player contracts would be under the new CBA rules .

Now what Fehr should have said is this (and I have been advocating for this since Make Whole came out) - guarantee that we will be made whole for any year in which 'old' contracts do not fit under the cap. We would be playing hockey right now.

Instead he says - well we don't get everything back (even though everything is guaranteeing money that doesn't need to be guaranteed) so let's go with de-linked again! Huzzah!

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11-10-2012, 03:17 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
okay, so we now know a large portion ofthe nutsandboltsofwhatis on the table from the nhl.

Let's look at these very large numbers ona bitofa smallerscale.

What happens to nhl playerjohnsmith's contract? Onjuly2nd2012 he signed a five yeardeal worth twenty five million bucks. It pays him five million in each of the five years. There is no bonus money involved. Straight salary.

What does his pay look like each year according to the nhl's projected numbers?

What does his pay look like each year according to the nhlpa projected numbers?
12/13*13/1414/1515/1616/17
NHLPA offer 5M 5M 5M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 7 % growth 5M 5M 5M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 5 % growth 5M 5M 5M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 3 % growth 4,9M 4,8M 4,9M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 1 % growth 4,8M 4,6M 4,5M 4,6M 4,6M
NHL offer with 0 % growth 4,8M 4,5M 4,4M 4,4M 4,4M
*Assuming full season

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11-10-2012, 03:19 PM
  #199
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Fehr and the PA are being very transparent... in fact, those of use on message boards who aren't even involved in the negotiation can clearly see that he's bringing the same proposal over and over and over and over...


well, except that one time that he drew up proposal #3 on a napkin without running any numbers to back it up.

If the players want to play, why not tell their union boss to stop sending the same offer and come up with something useful?

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11-10-2012, 03:21 PM
  #200
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Guess no meeting today. sigh

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