HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

To Make Whole or Make Partial -- THAT is the question (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXV

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #226
FormerBruinsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins71 View Post
Dale Arnold ‏@DaleEArnold
Was told of an #NHL team that will MAKE $2 million if no season, and LOSE $20 million if season resumes. That's why Bettman has clout.

This again just shows that the NHL has ALL of the leverage here and is in no rush to get a season going.
not a chance this is true...i agree if they play the team could lose that much, but no way the team "makes" 2 million if there is no season...fact is every team will lose money if there is no league this year...the lockout hurts teams like the rangers and leafs for sure, but for teams like phoenix and columbus, i am sure the owners arent pushing too hard to get a deal done quickly unless its on their terms.

FormerBruinsFan is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 02:51 PM
  #227
CN_paladin
Registered User
 
CN_paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westeros
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Puckdaddy article about Fehr's negotiation strategy.

The only time Fehr really seemed bothered was when NHL refused to talk. He loves to sit in negotiations and do everything to prevent progress to gain concessions, it seems.
Using Puck Daddy's article above as source:

Quote:
Arriving for meetings late. Taking an exorbitant amount of time to fetch a glass of water during meetings (seriously).
That'd be worse than arriving late to all of the meetings. Talk about negotiating in good faith.

CN_paladin is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 02:53 PM
  #228
guyincognito
Registered User
 
guyincognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 31,300
vCash: 500
It's probably the Islanders. But I have a feeling they're not the only team that would profit by not playing, hell on second thought it may not be the Islanders because of the TV deal, they may do better than that.

guyincognito is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 02:56 PM
  #229
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,686
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crapeze11 View Post
Phoenix? I don't buy that argument because teams like the Rangers and Maple Leafs stand to lose a lot of money if there is no season.
I don't know, I think I buy that. According to local sources (whomever they may be), the Flyers don't turn a profit unless they make it to the second round of the playoffs.

Snotbubbles is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 02:57 PM
  #230
CN_paladin
Registered User
 
CN_paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westeros
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
not a chance this is true...i agree if they play the team could lose that much, but no way the team "makes" 2 million if there is no season...fact is every team will lose money if there is no league this year...the lockout hurts teams like the rangers and leafs for sure, but for teams like phoenix and columbus, i am sure the owners arent pushing too hard to get a deal done quickly unless its on their terms.
Have you gone through hundreds of pages of their financial records?

Transportation, travel accommodation and medical bills cost around millions. Not to mention the salary of hundreds of workers and maintenance cost.

NBC's paying the NHL this year regardless of the outcome so that's still some profit for the teams now.

CN_paladin is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 02:58 PM
  #231
Renbarg
Registered User
 
Renbarg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 9,736
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
not a chance this is true...i agree if they play the team could lose that much, but no way the team "makes" 2 million if there is no season...fact is every team will lose money if there is no league this year...the lockout hurts teams like the rangers and leafs for sure, but for teams like phoenix and columbus, i am sure the owners arent pushing too hard to get a deal done quickly unless its on their terms.
There are still revenue stream flowing into team's coffers. NBC money, maybe local cable money, NHL licensed products, etc.

Its feasible.

Renbarg is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #232
SuperUnknown
Registered User
 
SuperUnknown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
not a chance this is true...i agree if they play the team could lose that much, but no way the team "makes" 2 million if there is no season...fact is every team will lose money if there is no league this year...the lockout hurts teams like the rangers and leafs for sure, but for teams like phoenix and columbus, i am sure the owners arent pushing too hard to get a deal done quickly unless its on their terms.
If they own the rink (or "manage" the rink), then this could be true as they can host events for a profit without players costs and travel. If you consider other hockey staff + scouting to cost about $8M per year, then they have to generate $10M from the rink. Over 40 events (replacing hockey games), you need to generate $250k per other event to turn that profit.

SuperUnknown is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #233
5 Minute Major
Registered User
 
5 Minute Major's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Binghamton, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 3,235
vCash: 374
I think that team that would make 2 million in a lockout but lose 20 million if there was a season very well could be Buffalo.

Terry Pegula handed out heavy front loaded deals. The Sabres are a hot commodity in the Western NY area and sell a lot of merchandise......hockey or no hockey.

With saying that, Pegula wouldn't complain about losing that 20 million.

5 Minute Major is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:01 PM
  #234
FormerBruinsFan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Kelowna, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Have you gone through hundreds of pages of their financial records?

Transportation, travel accommodation and medical bills cost around millions. Not to mention the salary of hundreds of workers and maintenance cost.

NBC's paying the NHL this year regardless of the outcome so that's still some profit for the teams now.
ah never realized nbc was still paying the league this year...geez, not just the fans being the big loser in this mess, guess nbc is taking it without lube too...and yeah, i know the expenses are huge, just have a tough time believing a business makes money without being open for business...I'm just beyond frustrated and dont even know what to think anymore.

FormerBruinsFan is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:04 PM
  #235
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 11,415
vCash: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
not a chance this is true...i agree if they play the team could lose that much, but no way the team "makes" 2 million if there is no season...fact is every team will lose money if there is no league this year...the lockout hurts teams like the rangers and leafs for sure, but for teams like phoenix and columbus, i am sure the owners arent pushing too hard to get a deal done quickly unless its on their terms.
True North will make money with or without hockey. They own the MTS Centre which is in the heart of downtown and is heavily booked with concerts and other events. There are a couple of attached restaurants & their merchanise outlet (yes in Winnipeg people still buy merch in the middle of a lockout) and they own the bar across the street which has a whole whack of VLT's. My guess is they break even on hockey and load up on the rest.

KingBogo is online now  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:06 PM
  #236
19nazzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 17,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Close, but no. For a guy whose contract does not expire, he is GUARANTEED his money under make whole.

So this guy is under contract for 5 years. At 3% growth, the 50/50 cap split in Year 3 is $1.7B. Meanwhile, at this time only $900M of contracts are still committed, including this hypothetical player. He will get paid first, including deferments under Make Whole from the first two years. So his pay should go down in years 1 and 2 and then go up in years 3-5 when he gets his deferred payment.

It's all the other guys who are not under contract who will suffer - the money paid to this guy will be now unavailable to UFA's. Under 3% growth the player share doesn't get back to $1.8B until year 5 so it will be suffering for UFA's for a long time.

Again, here is Kopitar's situation with REAL numbers:

Kopitar (face value, old CBA): $6.8M + $6.8M + $6.8M + $6.8M = $27.2M

Kopitar (NHL 50/50): $5.9M + $6.2M + $7.5M + $7.5M = $27.2M


Under no circumstances will Make Whole reduce the total of the face value of the contracts. ALL it does is put off paying the money owed.
Time value of money though.

__________________
- Sent from my desktop using my fingers
19nazzy is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:07 PM
  #237
Hire Sather
Still Good Enough
 
Hire Sather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 25,196
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Hire Sather
Long lunch??? can we hope Bill and Steve said "screw these clowns" and decided to go meet by themselves and get this done?? lol

Hire Sather is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:07 PM
  #238
guyincognito
Registered User
 
guyincognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 31,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I don't know, I think I buy that. According to local sources (whomever they may be), the Flyers don't turn a profit unless they make it to the second round of the playoffs.
They also have to overcome $65M of player salary and there's always the creative accounting.

For the low rent teams having to carry a $50M payroll is a burden (especially if gate is non-existent), so if you're coming out $20M behind or more on the payroll vs. gate ratio, it's probably less painful to not operate. If you're a $500K a night gate (which is low but not bottom rung), you're only netting $20M or so in gate and depending on your arrangement/lease, you're not getting all of that anyway.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a handful of teams that turn a "profit" based on money that is due to them, without having to carry a player payroll.

guyincognito is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:08 PM
  #239
Shrimper
Trick or ruddy treat
 
Shrimper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Essex
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 87,498
vCash: 50
Guessing that there's no meeting today then. 4pm now?

Shrimper is online now  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:08 PM
  #240
Fordy
the kid signify
 
Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 20,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Wu View Post
Hockey players know where snow is. Buisnessmen seem to forget.
The NHL's success is determined by the weather? Interesting, a temperature-based revenue split hasn't been proposed yet...

Fordy is online now  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:09 PM
  #241
mossey3535
Registered User
 
mossey3535's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,755
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19nazzy View Post
Time value of money though.
Yes, that has been pointed out many times. Is it worth going back to de-linked proposals with no chance of being accepted?

What is the time-value of salary already lost and that continues to be lost right now? What is the opportunity cost of this whole debacle?

mossey3535 is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:12 PM
  #242
CN_paladin
Registered User
 
CN_paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westeros
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
ah never realized nbc was still paying the league this year...geez, not just the fans being the big loser in this mess, guess nbc is taking it without lube too...and yeah, i know the expenses are huge, just have a tough time believing a business makes money without being open for business...I'm just beyond frustrated and dont even know what to think anymore.
Like others have mentioned before, if this whole season is cancelled NBC still has to pay the NHL the full amount. However, NBC would then get an extra year at the end of the 10-year contract free of charge so the end winner could very well be NBC in the long run.

CN_paladin is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #243
pepty
Let's win it all
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,914
vCash: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Puckdaddy article about Fehr's negotiation strategy.

The only time Fehr really seemed bothered was when NHL refused to talk. He loves to sit in negotiations and do everything to prevent progress to gain concessions, it seems.
Those cheering on Fehrs antics are his media fans such as the author of that article you quote., Goodenow with whom he is reportedly in close contact, those around Goodenow such as Ian Pulvar, his old cap hating mentor form the MLBPA and Richard Rodier ,Alan Walsh and so on.

The players are just along for the ride too bad for those whose careers wil be ended with this lockout.

The writer basically says that Fehr is being attacked by the owners for sabotaging the talks which the author then admits he is doing and in fact is cheering him on; ; the pettiness and carelessness of the careers of the players and the health of the league is off the charts.

He even admits (admiringly)what we all suspect, that the players and these negotiations have been hijacked by Fehr for his own agenda and for his ideological purposes and his "legacy..

After all he only nearly killed baseball. he can most likely kill of the NHL to the applause of his media fan boys.:

Meanwhile, the League They're the ones expressing frustration at every turn, both publicly and privately. They're the ones seen making concessions despite having the high ground.

They're the ones that seem desperate to play again, while the NHL's players support Fehr, allow their anger with Bettman to fortify their spirit and continue to find work in Europe to subsidize the loss of their NHL wages. The fact that we still have several players leave for overseas during what was framed as the most critical week of CBA talks … well, what does that tell you?

This isn't to say that what Donald Fehr's doing is right or wrong; hell, there's a part of us that really believes the entire CBA debate is a Trojan Horse for an eventual run at the salary cap.

pepty is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #244
CN_paladin
Registered User
 
CN_paladin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westeros
Posts: 2,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Guessing that there's no meeting today then. 4pm now?
Has the informal lunch ended? We haven't had many Twitter updates today.

CN_paladin is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:20 PM
  #245
Alesle
Registered User
 
Alesle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oslo, Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 532
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Close, but no. For a guy whose contract does not expire, he is GUARANTEED his money under make whole.

So this guy is under contract for 5 years. At 3% growth, the 50/50 cap split in Year 3 is $1.7B. Meanwhile, at this time only $900M of contracts are still committed, including this hypothetical player. He will get paid first, including deferments under Make Whole from the first two years. So his pay should go down in years 1 and 2 and then go up in years 3-5 when he gets his deferred payment.

It's all the other guys who are not under contract who will suffer - the money paid to this guy will be now unavailable to UFA's. Under 3% growth the player share doesn't get back to $1.8B until year 5 so it will be suffering for UFA's for a long time.

Again, here is Kopitar's situation with REAL numbers:

Kopitar (face value, old CBA): $6.8M + $6.8M + $6.8M + $6.8M = $27.2M

Kopitar (NHL 50/50): $5.9M + $6.2M + $7.5M + $7.5M = $27.2M


Under no circumstances will Make Whole reduce the total of the face value of the contracts. ALL it does is put off paying the money owed.
I didn't bother moving the deferred payments, for simplicity I included them in the years they would've been earned. Also, as I've understood it, the latest proposal would only guarantee the first two seasons of the contracts, using the 211M set aside for that purpose, to make the contracts 'whole'. Unlike the first 'Make Whole' proposal I was not of the impression that any additional money from the players (UFA pool) would be used to 'make whole' the contracts in the event of the 211M set aside would not cover the contracts fully. If you have any sources indicating otherwise, please share as I'd like to read it.

So with my understanding, the payments for the imaginary player would look like this when the deferred payments are moved to the correct years (and 2 % interest for one full year on the deferred salary included):

12/13*13/1414/1515/1616/17
NHLPA offer 5M 5M 5M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 7 % growth 4.69M 5.32M 5M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 5 % growth 4.6M 5.24M 5.17M 5M 5M
NHL offer with 3 % growth 4.51M 5.05M 4.95M 4.93M 5M
NHL offer with 1 % growth 4.43M 4.88M 4.68M 4.56M 4.6M
NHL offer with 0 % growth 4.38M 4.79M 4.55M 4.38M 4.38M

Alesle is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:32 PM
  #246
TrillMike
Registered User
 
TrillMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 5,615
vCash: 500
Sorry to do this guys, I've been busy all day. Are they meeting? Anything going on?

TrillMike is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:32 PM
  #247
Hanklite*
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: TO
Country: Canada
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
Does anybody else get the sense that if the NHL were to agree to all of the players terms they would still turn around and say no then ask for more

Hanklite* is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:34 PM
  #248
ottawah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
NHLPA also risks losing everything by holding out for too long

Situation changes with every day lost
And in my mind it strengthens the owners position.

Players want guaranteed non linked money (and say it will save money by making forecasts on revenue growth), the owners want linked. The longer this goes on, the less we can be sure about potential revenue growth. This could easily stunt, ******, and not only set back growth, but even dip. Every day the owners will be much more leery about an agreed upon number as forecasting revenue becomes much tougher. Each day means the owners position of accepting only linkage increases, and real revenue losses will occur.

As such, each day increases the likelihood of the players losing money going forward, not just in lost games today.

ottawah is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:36 PM
  #249
ottawah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,965
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by supahdupah View Post
Another thing I am really confused about is why no one questions Fehr's true competence. His only real experience is with MLBPA. It's not a small assumption to think all his experience immediately translates to other sports he know nothing of.
Its also important to note that for about the last ten years, MLB ball players, as a percentage of revenue, was the lowest among the big 4 I believe. If we would have accepted a deal guaranteeing players 57% during the time the NHL did, his players would have seen a 20% bump in pay over what they made.

Begs the question, is he really that good ......

ottawah is offline  
Old
11-10-2012, 03:36 PM
  #250
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Like others have mentioned before, if this whole season is cancelled NBC still has to pay the NHL the full amount. However, NBC would then get an extra year at the end of the 10-year contract free of charge so the end winner could very well be NBC in the long run.
So do the players get the shaft, again?

Lets say there are no games this year the owners will keep all the revenue (NBC and maybe CBC money). The league then gives NBC and CBC a free year. During that free year the owners say to the players, well there was no TV cash this year revenues are down.

Confucius is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:00 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.