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Goalies before 1950 research thread

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Old
05-18-2012, 03:42 PM
  #126
TheDevilMadeMe
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1933-34: Charlie Gardiner wins the Vezina. Chicago Blackhawks have the lowest GAA in the league, but Wilf Cude who split the season between Montreal and Detroit (but only played 30 of 48 games) has the lowest GAA

1. Wilf Cude-TOT 1.47
2. Charlie Gardiner*-CBH 1.63
3. Roy Worters*-NYA 2.01
4. Lorne Chabot-MTL 2.07
5. Andy Aitkenhead-NYR 2.27

1927, 1934, 1955, 1961, 1963, 1964 all have the Vezina going to the starter of the team with the lowest GAA when another goalie had a lower personal GAA. 1965 is the first season for which the Vezina is shared.

I think it's highly unlikely there was any change in criteria in 1946.

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05-18-2012, 03:46 PM
  #127
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Wording

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
1933-34: Charlie Gardiner wins the Vezina. Chicago Blackhawks have the lowest GAA in the league, but Wilf Cude who split the season between Montreal and Detroit (but only played 30 of 48 games) has the lowest GAA

1. Wilf Cude-TOT 1.47
2. Charlie Gardiner*-CBH 1.63
3. Roy Worters*-NYA 2.01
4. Lorne Chabot-MTL 2.07
5. Andy Aitkenhead-NYR 2.27

1927, 1934, 1955, 1961, 1963, 1964 all have the Vezina going to the starter of the team with the lowest GAA when another goalie had a lower personal GAA. 1965 is the first season for which the Vezina is shared.

I think it's highly unlikely there was any change in criteria in 1946.
The criteria seems to have been constant but the official wording may have been tweeked. As per the 1965 Vezina the O6 NHL featured some flexibility at times.

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05-18-2012, 04:04 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought that too, but then I remembered that George Hainsworth was 3rd in GAA in 1926-27:

1. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.42
2. Lorne Chabot-NYR 1.46
3. George Hainsworth*-MTL 1.47
4. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.49

However, Benedict and Chabot each had their backups play a few games with terrible GAAs, so Hainsworth's team, Montreal, finished with the lowest GAA:

Montreal Canadiens 67
Montreal Maroons 68
Ottawa Senators 69
New York Rangers 72
Boston Bruins 89
New York Americans 91
Toronto Maple Leafs 94
Detroit Cougars 105
Pittsburgh Pirates 108
Chicago Black Hawks 116

Edit: I realize that we all like to be smart and all, but maybe we should accept that NHL.com and HHOF.com are correct when they both use the exact same wording:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=24965

http://www.hhof.com/htmlSilverware/s...shvezina.shtml
The old time method of GA/GP would give:

1. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.51
2. George Hainsworth*-MTL 1.52
3. Lorne Chabot-NYR 1.56
4. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.57

Perhaps at the time it would be Benedict and Hainsworth with 1.5, and Hainsworth getting it on a tie breaker of team GA. The Fischler Hockey Encyclopedia from 1983 lists them as both being 1.52 in the leaders of 1926-27 section, but do list Benedict as 1.51 in his career stats overview.

I was just going by the article I linked for 1927 above and the article cited for the change in 1946. It sounds like a wording change, perhaps to reflect how things were already being done anyway.

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05-18-2012, 04:28 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
The old time method of GA/GP would give:

1. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.51
2. George Hainsworth*-MTL 1.52
3. Lorne Chabot-NYR 1.56
4. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.57

Perhaps at the time it would be Benedict and Hainsworth with 1.5, and Hainsworth getting it on a tie breaker of team GA. The Fischler Hockey Encyclopedia from 1983 lists them as both being 1.52 in the leaders of 1926-27 section, but do list Benedict as 1.51 in his career stats overview.

I was just going by the article I linked for 1927 above and the article cited for the change in 1946. It sounds like a wording change, perhaps to reflect how things were already being done anyway.
The article wikipedia cites devotes a whole paragraph at the end to the "change." Here it is:

Quote:
Another change was in the conditions of the award of the Vezina Trophy to goal tenders. In future, the award will go to the team with the fewest goals scored against it in the during the season. The goalie playing the most games for the club will get the Cup.
Ottawa Citizen, Feb 15, 1946

But this article, published 8 months later gives a different tune:

Quote:
Clarence S. Campbell, president of the National Hockey League said last night at a dinner in his honor that the league will review the system under which annual awards to players are made.

He said some changes may be made in the methods of selecting the winners of the Calder Memorial Trophy for the best rookie, the Hart Trophy for the Most Valuable Player and the Lady Byng Trophy for the Most Sportsmanlike Player.

These awards are now made after a poll of hockey writers in league cities.

He indicated that the selection process for the fourth award, the Vezina Trophy for the league goalie with the least number of goals scored against him, would not be altered.

"The Vezina Trophy is a matter of pure mathematics," Campbell said.
Windsor Daily Star, Oct 31, 1946

At this point, I have to think that the media just had no idea as to the actual criteria of the Trophy.

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Old
05-20-2012, 01:58 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'll see what I can find - I've heard it a few times, but I think that I just read it again the other day (which is why it's in my head), so I'll see if I can find that.
Don't worry about it Doc. I found references. Didn't think I'd end up spending the last week completely re-writing the Vezina Trophy article on wikipedia, but I'm pretty much done with it now.

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05-21-2012, 07:11 PM
  #131
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Done with Bill Durnan. I added some stuff near the end, it's a pretty damn long bio at this point so I think we get a pretty good sense that he was considered maybe the best goalie ever upon his retirement, and if not the best, he was VERY high up on the list. Having looked through everything, as the bio writer of that long Benedict one on the first page of this thread, I can say I think that he was better than Benedict according to contemporary reports even though they were never directly compared in these quotes. Quite a few people believed it, including Maurice Richard.

I started to look into Paddy Moran a little bit but really couldn't find a super ton on him as far as how he ranked compared to Benedict and Vezina. Iain Fyffe had a pretty good writeup on him on his Historysis site, which is a great reference for pre-consolidation players even if some don't agree with his statistical analysis. The link to that article is here: http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...ng-goalie.html

Also, another article by Iain wondering about Paddy Moran and his HHOF credentials: http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...-of-famer.html


Last edited by vecens24: 05-21-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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05-21-2012, 07:23 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Don't worry about it Doc. I found references. Didn't think I'd end up spending the last week completely re-writing the Vezina Trophy article on wikipedia, but I'm pretty much done with it now.
Ah, sweet! Good to hear.

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05-22-2012, 01:25 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Done with Bill Durnan. I added some stuff near the end, it's a pretty damn long bio at this point so I think we get a pretty good sense that he was considered maybe the best goalie ever upon his retirement, and if not the best, he was VERY high up on the list. Having looked through everything, as the bio writer of that long Benedict one on the first page of this thread, I can say I think that he was better than Benedict according to contemporary reports even though they were never directly compared in these quotes. Quite a few people believed it, including Maurice Richard.
How much of this is simply attributed to the fact that Benedict got significantly less contemporary praise than his rep on the HOH board would have you believe?
Quote:

I started to look into Paddy Moran a little bit but really couldn't find a super ton on him as far as how he ranked compared to Benedict and Vezina. Iain Fyffe had a pretty good writeup on him on his Historysis site, which is a great reference for pre-consolidation players even if some don't agree with his statistical analysis. The link to that article is here: http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...ng-goalie.html

Also, another article by Iain wondering about Paddy Moran and his HHOF credentials: http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...-of-famer.html
Yeah, good luck finding lots of info on the guys who came before Persy Leseuer, and even the stuff on Leseuer is limited. I know seventieslord has a ton of hockey books, so I PMed him asking if he had time to do profiles of Hutton and Moran, and he said he didn't have time, but that even if he did, he knows there isn't all that much out there about them in books.

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05-22-2012, 01:55 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How much of this is simply attributed to the fact that Benedict got significantly less contemporary praise than his rep on the HOH board would have you believe?
Most of it. That's what I meant, that if we go by contemporary praise about each, Durnan kills him (then again Benedict was kind of a cheater so it makes sense why contemporary writers would somewhat disregard him). Still though, I assume there were a decent amount of sportswriters who saw them both play, and still a good amount of the contemporary newspapers considered Durnan the best ever to that point (I haven't looked into Frank Brimsek a lot but I know Sturm feels pretty good about saying the same about him according to the Dishing the Dirt thread). Plus Fischler (who is kind of bat**** crazy but is a good researcher) seems pretty confident that by 1946, Durnan was considered the best ever, so that's another feather in his cap.
Quote:
Yeah, good luck finding lots of info on the guys who came before Persy Leseuer, and even the stuff on Leseuer is limited. I know seventieslord has a ton of hockey books, so I PMed him asking if he had time to do profiles of Hutton and Moran, and he said he didn't have time, but that even if he did, he knows there isn't all that much out there about them in books.
Yeahhhhhh....I'm going to keep trying to look into Moran through this week, but I dont think we're going to do much better than what Iain has already provided for us.

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05-22-2012, 02:52 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Most of it. That's what I meant, that if we go by contemporary praise about each, Durnan kills him (then again Benedict was kind of a cheater so it makes sense why contemporary writers would somewhat disregard him). Still though, I assume there were a decent amount of sportswriters who saw them both play, and still a good amount of the contemporary newspapers considered Durnan the best ever to that point (I haven't looked into Frank Brimsek a lot but I know Sturm feels pretty good about saying the same about him according to the Dishing the Dirt thread). Plus Fischler (who is kind of bat**** crazy but is a good researcher) seems pretty confident that by 1946, Durnan was considered the best ever, so that's another feather in his cap.
.
If we are just going by contemporary praise, Benedict's own contemporaries Georges Vezina and Hugh Lehman both seem to beat him.

I find it highly unlikely that Durnan was considered the best ever as early as 1946. Look at the Johnny Mowers profile - a lot of people thought Durnan won the 1944 and 1945 Vezina / 1st Team All Stars by default and were looking forward to him finally having some competition from Broda/Brimsek/Mowers coming back from the war - of course, we now know Mowers couldn't get his game back together after the war.

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05-22-2012, 04:06 PM
  #136
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I was hoping someone with a NYT subscription would step up, but as they have not I'll post the stuff on Dave Kerr I could pull from the free parts of google archives later tonight/this week.

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05-23-2012, 11:08 PM
  #137
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Dave Kerr


x1 Vezina Trophy winner (1940)
x1 NHL First All-Star Team (1940)
x1 NHL Second All-Star Team (1938)
x1 Stanley Cup Winner (1940)
x5 Top 3 GAA (1st in '40, 2nd in '37, '38' and '39; 3rd in '36)
Allan Cup winner in 1930

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
After bouncing around with the Montreal Maroons and New York Americans and several senior league circuits where he established his reputation, Davey Kerr gained fame when he joined the New York Rangers in 1934. In Manhattan he became one of the league's best netminders until his retirement in 1941.

His best season was the 1939-40 campaign. He won his only Vezina Trophy as the league's top goalie with a 1.54 GAA and a league leading 8 shutouts. Then in the playoffs he was spectacular in leading the Rangers to their now-famous 1940 Stanley Cup championship. He was also named to the First All Star Team that year.

But even before that legendary season he was a hit. In fact, on March 18th, 1938, Kerr became the first hockey player to be pictured of Time Magazine. He was hockey's first cover boy.

The Toronto born Kerr was extremely popular with the fans, in part because he was as agile as a ballet dancer. He loved to do the splits to take away the entire lower part of the net. In practice one of Davey's favorite maneuvers was to lay his stick across the goal mouth in front of the goal line while he did the splits to take away the lower portion. Then he'd have both hands free to catch his teammates practice shots. He would dare his buddies to beat him, and they rarely did.

One of the most impressed was teammate and later Ranger coach Frank Boucher.

"Kerr was gifted with an excellent right hand that picked off shots like Bill Terry playing first for the (Baseball's NY) Giants. He was deliberate and methodical in everything he did. Davey retired long before his time, when he was at his peak and only 30 years old," said Boucher.

Boucher, one of the all time greats, also saw Kerr as a leader. Davey was very vocal in the nets, often instructing his team, almost acting as an on-ice coach.

"In a commanding way, Davey was able to shout at his defensemen, giving them guidance without offending them and getting them to do the job he wanted done in front of him, talking continually when the puck was in our end. I don't ever remember Dave accusing a defense player for a mistake when a goals was scored against him. He always assumed the blame," said Boucher.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...,2475988&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Herald - Mar 13, 1957
New York last won the trophy in 1939-40 season, defeating Toronto four games to two in the best-of-seven series. Watson was a playing member of the that team, sparked by the defensive play of goalie Dave Kerr in the nets. Kerr won the Vezina Trophy the same season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Sep 10, 1980
When Lorne (Gump) Worsley and Harry Lumley were inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame this week it re-opened a campaign by one of Montreal's smaller but enduring fan clubs, specifically "the Dave Kerr for Hall of Fame Society."

The paper had just landed on the doorstep yesterday when Terry (Aislin) Mosher phoned to say, "Gump and Lumley made it. Now's your chance to do something for Davey."

Somehow, the Hall of Fame selectors, who have installed more than their share of unworthies over the years, keep overlooking David Alexander Kerr, one of the best, if not the best goalie from 1930-1941 in the NHL. A native of Toronto, Kerr become a hero here when he led the MAAA Winged Wheelers to the Allan Cup in 1929. He joined the old Montreal Maroons in the NHL in the 1930-'31 season, but it was later with the New York Rangers that he had his best seasons.

The Gazette's Dink Carroll remembers him as a "cocky little guy with exceptional eyesight and a great right hand and extraordinary reflex. He said nobody could score on him on a breakaway or a penalty shot, and I can't remember anyone actually doing it. Like Ted Williams he went out of his way to protect his eyes, wearing sunglasses and refusing to look out a train window at the snow."

His career (10 years) goals-against average was 2.23 per game (less than Ken Dryden's 2.24) and in 1940, the last year the Rangers won the Stanley Cup, it was a phenomenal 1.60. He retired in 1941 when many of the Rangers' stars went into the armed forces (the club has never been the same again).

Dave Kerr's name came up for the selection to the hall in 1969 and in 1975, but Danny Gallivan, one of the selection committee, said he didn't get enough support.
But take heart, Kerr fans, it's coming up again in 1981.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...,2845298&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Dec 22, 1933
Maroons Held to Scoreless Tie By Chicago's Hawks
Chuck Gardiner and Dave Kerr Star in Battle of Goaltenders

The Maroons' scoring guns seem to be effectively spiked. The club that had nine men among the first 15 point-makers in the Canadian Section of the NHL last season and that rattled goals past opposing netminders so fast it seemed to be using machine-guns instead of sticks can't even find a popgun in its equipment just now.

Last night at the Forum Maroons were shut out again, held to a scoreless tie by Charles "Chattering Chuck" Gardiner and his associate Chicago Black Hawks through seventy minutes of fast hockey before a small crowd. And it wasn't for want of trying. Maroons worked like demons, Managed Eddie Gerard shuffled his lines frequently and thoroughly. Four-man attacks were used time and again. They outplayed the Hawks in the first, third and overtime periods but still they could not score against the close-knot Chicago defence and Mr. Gardiner's usual brand of highly-effective goaltending, tinged with a bit of luck here and there and aided and abetted by poor marksmanship by Maroons on some occasions.
There's one thing about the Maroons; they're not alibiing themselves. They can't understand why they are not getting goals. They are convinced they are trying their hardest. Bit they just can't click, and they admit it, wonderingly, vowing grimly to do better next time.
...Dave Trottier, given more work than any other member of the team except Dave Kerr...

Both Goalers Star
So it turned out to be one of those games that was a double triumph for the goalkeepers, Messrs. Gardiner and Kerr-the former having more work, but the latter showing his share of brilliancy when necessary-adding shutout to their records. The highlights of their performances were a particularly sensational save each. Early in the game, Northcott got right through on Gardiner alone, Baldy made his play well, tricked Chuck into a dive, Northcott coasted across the empty goal-mouth and slipped the puck toward the net. Gardiner in a despairing effort, flung out his stick, while he was flat on the ice, and knocked the puck clear. In the second period, Kerr rivaled this save with one from Johnny Gottselig, Gottselig was right in and Dave was diving forward when Gottselig shot and the puck zoomed upward, heading into the net over Dave's shoulder. Kerr threw up his right hand caught the disc expertly as he was falling on his face.


Maroons forced the pace in all but the second period when the Hawks outplayed them distinctly. As the game entered its late stages still scoreless the Chicagoans became more and more careful in playing for a tie and despite the driving finish of the Maroons, the solidity of the Hawks' defence could not be shaken.
1937 Playoff Run
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meriden Record - Apr 8, 1937
Detroit Red Wings Confident of Stopping Inspired Rangers
Play Next Three Games of Stanley Cup Series on Home Ice-Norm Smith, Star Goalie, May Be Absent From Lineup When Warfare Is Resumed Tonight-Dave Kerr, Ranger Netminder, Faces Task of Stopping League's Best Offense

The injury-ridden Red Wings of Detroit, one game down of New York Rangers in the five-game Stanley Cup series, came home today with a feeling that "we'll pull out of the hole."
To retain the Cup they won last year, the league champions must stop the inspired rush of the "hot" Ranger team and win three games here before Lester Patrick's young men get two more victories.
The Wings think they'll do it. They have pulled out of tight places before, most recently at Montreal in the championship playoffs when, after dropping two decisions to the Canadiens following Goalie Norm Smith's injury, they came back to win the overtime deciding game.

...Detroit Red Wings, who overcame an amazing series of injuries to win the league title, don't think that Dave Kerr, Ranger netminder who has held the opposition to two goals in 313 minutes of playoff hockey, can continue to hold off the Detroit attack, which was the league's most effective offense during the scheduled season.
...The Detroit strategy for the remained of the Cup series was gone over by Adams tonight in conference with three captains...
Principal subject of the conference was how to slow down the attack of a young Ranger team that has found its most blazing speed in the important final series.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...,2159960&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Evening Independent - Apr 12, 1937
The New York Rangers, who finished third in the American division of the National Hockey League, stood one game away from the Stanley Cup today.
Resuming their sensational conquering drive last night the Blueshirted New Yorkers defeated the Detroit Red Wings, cup defenders and league champions, 1-0. Victory Tuesday night when the Stanley Cup series continues will give the Rangers the trophy.

...Dave Kerr, the great Ranger goalie, scored his fourth shutout in seven playoff games last night. Except for the second game of the Stanley Cup series, which Detroit won 4 to 2, Kerr has been supreme master of net play. Only six goals have scored against him in seven games.
The Rangers ended up getting shutout in the 4th and 5th games by Earl Robertson, while allowing 4 goals, and lost their chance to bring the Cup home.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...,3007023&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Daily - Mar 29, 1938
Boston's Tiny Thompson returns to the first team after being selected first in 1936 and giving way to Smith last season. The 32-year-old netminder is finishing one of the greatest seasons of his 10-year NHL career after having won the Vezina trophy for the fourth time.

His only serious rival for the job was Dave Kerr and he had a comfortable margin over the New York Ranger. Kerr won the alternate team job without a struggle.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...,1596516&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Herald Jan 11, 1940
Rangers Can Equal Record Team To Seek 18th Straight Hockey Victory
Would Tie Mark Set By Canadiens in 1927-28

A record that has withstood every assault for 10 years-the 18 game unbeaten streak of Montreal Canadiens in the season of 1927-28-is within the Rangers' grasp, and the strain has been telling recently. It affects them until they step on the ice where they don't know the meaning of the word jitters.

...If they tie or defeat Chicago the Rangers will equal the mark set by a Canadien team propelled by the late Howie Morenz, who led the league in scoring that season, and backed by Goaler George Hainsworth, who allowed only 48 goals in 44 games. Providing they get by tonight, the Rangers will have a chance of setting a record against the Maple Leafs in Toronto Saturday.
Hotter than live coals since they last lost a game in mid-November, the Rangers have uncovered tremendous power and remarkable defensive ability during the streak. Their forwards- and it has been a case of every forward doing his share - have fired 64 goals. Dave Kerr has been beaten only 25 times in 17 games.

New Defensive Scheme
They have licked every team in the league expect Toronto, twice. Their only meeting with the Leafs in that period was a 4-1 victory.

The Rangers have introduced a new method of offsetting penalties this season that hasn't attracted the attention it deserves as a crowd - please and as an effective means of defence. The idea is to get the puck into the opposition's defending zone, then throw every man up on the theory that a savage four-man attack is a better defence than just checking or ragging the puck.The figured show the method works-when you have a team of skaters like the Rangers. They had two goals scored on them while playing a man short, but they've scored four themselves.

Under ordinary circumstances a contest between Boston and Toronto would be bound to hold the National League spotlight, but the circumstances are not ordinary tonight and because of this, attention is focused on a clash between Chicago and the Rangers.
The Rangers won this game 5-3 and picked up a 19th win over Toronto, before missing their chance to hit 20 straight against Chicago again.

news.google.com/newspapers?id=K-hkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EIENAAAAIBAJ&pg=1901,1577446&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Journal-Jan 17, 1940
The business at hand, so far as Dave Kerr is concerned, is catching up with and then passing Boston Bruins in the National Hockey League standing. The famed 19-game undefeated streak set by New York Rangers-with Kerr as the sparkplug-has been all but forgotten.

"People come up to me and say 'Boy, you must feel good now that Rangers have set a new unbeaten record'," declared the Ranger goalie Wednesday after a workout. "Well, we certainly were glad to set the mark but it isn't anything to cheer about to find ourselves still two points down to the Bruins after those 19 straight unbeaten games."

Thrill No. 1 in a 10-year NHL career for Kerr didn't come the night, as one would suppose, that the Rangers defeated Toronto Maple Leafs to wipe out the mark of 18 successive unbeaten games set a dozen years ago by Montreal Canadiens.

"Certainly, I got a big kick out of winning that one," said Kerr, "but I think that my biggest moment came when I was traded to Rangers by Montreal Maroons five years ago and we beat Maroons 2-1 the next time out."

Kerr is a man with a mind divided about winning the Vezina trophy, awarded annually to the goalie with the lowest-goals against record. "It seems to be a jinx to win the trophy," he said.

"There was Charlie Gardiner of Chicago-he became ill and died, and there was Lorne Chabot, who won it and then got hurt at the start of his next season," said Kerr, ticking names off on his fingers. "Normie Smith won it and next season when Detroit hit the skids he was sent out to have his eyes examined and finally gave up hockey. Tiny Thompson had the same thing happen as Chabot. He got hurt and Art Ross brought up Brimsek for a couple of games. Finally Brimsek became the regular goalie and Thompson was sold to Detroit."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...0,506963&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Herald - Feb 6, 1940
The simple, main reason why Boston Bruins are trailing the first-place New York Rangers in the National Hockey League standings is that they haven't beaten them all season.

The Rangers invade Boston tonight with a record of four victories in five meetings with the second-place Bruins. In their first collision of the season the two clubs played a tie.
Bruins will seek again to solve the intricate passing style and quick closing defensive system of the Blueshirts. A great inspirational player like Eddie Shore, whom Manager Art Ross traded to New York Americans, would go well in a spot like this.

This is one of the last chances, that Frankie Brimsek will have to show during the schedule that he ranks in a class with Goalie Dave Kerr of the Rangers this season. Voted the league's all-star goalie in 1938-39, and the No. 1 rookie, Brimsek has been scored on 67 times this season to 49 goals against Kerr.
1940 Cup Win
news.google.com/newspapers?id=IR0vAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xdsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=94 4,1595218&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen-Mar 19, 1940
Frankie Boucher's Young Men of Manhattan sprang something of a surprise when they blanked the league champions, 4-0. The Blue Shirts tied up the Bruins' famous Kraut line-one that had set a high mark in the league season's scoring activities-and went on to bang four tallies behind Frank Brimsek. The veteran Dave Kerr, acclaimed as the loop's top goaler this season, stood the Bostonese off while his teammates were salting the verdict away.
news.google.com/newspapers?id=eBo_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=W08MAAAAIBAJ&pg=18 01,5050801&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Windsor Daily Star - Mar 22, 1940
After being held scoreless for more than 157 minutes by Dave Kerr, the aroused Boston Bruins drove four goals past that All-Stars goalie in about 35 minutes Thursday as they came from behind for a 4-2 victory that evened their Stanley Cup semi-final series with the New York Rangers.
news.google.com/newspapers?id=ja9TAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hocDAAAAIBAJ&pg=43 33,3244112&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deseret News - Mar 29, 1940
Scoring their second straight shutout in the Stanley Cup playoff series, the New York Rangers defeated the Boston Bruins, 1 to 0, to take a lead of 3 games to 2, before 16,428 persons at Boston Gardens.
The game developed into a goalies' battle, with Dave Kerr of the Rangers having the edge. Kerr made 31 stops for 19 for Frank Brimsek.
news.google.com/newspapers?id=430tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_JgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=37 41,514337&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Apr 3, 1940
Young Alf Pike, the 15th or spare man, came out for his turn on the Rangers' third line just in time tonight, driving home the goal that gave the New Yorkers a 2-1 victory over Toronto Maple Leafs after fifteen and a half minutes overtime in the first game of the Stanley Cup final.
...Both clubs were playing tight, careful hockey, seemingly ready to continue any length of time when Pike made his move.
...If the Rangers had lost-and they were 2 to 1 favorites in the pre-game betting-the 22-year-old Pike would have been the "goat" for he had knocked the puck into his own net for Toronto's only goal.
...Less than two minutes later, Dave Schriner passed forward through the Ranger defence to Red Heron who was beaten to the puck by Dave Kerr in the Ranger nets. But Pike was coming up fast to check Heron and he couldn't stop from barging into Kerr's leg pads. The loose pad[sic] was knocked out of Kerr's pads and over the line, Herron getting credit for the goal.

After that the teams settled back to play it close, waiting for the breaks. The Leafs bumped heavily from the start, attempting to knock some of the speed out of the Rangers and early in the overtime it appeared as if their bumping corps, led by Red Horner and Bingo Kampman, had been successful.
They were forcing the play just before Pike's clincher. Kerr had kicked, caught and fallen on pucks to stop a drive by the Leaf line of Gus Marker, Schriner and Pep Kelly.

...The game had few of the expected playoff thrills. Though the checking was hard throughout there were only seven penalties.
...The Leafs put on their strongest drives in the closing half of the third period and in the overtime, after the Rangers carried a wide edge for nearly 50 minutes.
...Just before Pike's goal, Marker broke from a five-man Ranger attack and sped in on Kerr alone. Kerr's great save set the stage for the passing bout between Patrick and Pike, and the latter's winning shot.
The Rangers followed this 2-0 start by dropping games 3 and 4. Kerr then outdueled Broda winning games 5 and 6 in overtime to clinch the Cup.

news.google.com/newspapers?id=07RQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qiIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=64 89,4043923&dq=en
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Milwaukee Journal - Oct 24, 1940
Brimsek has improved steadily at goal and is ranked right up with Dave Kerr of the Rangers among the game's great net minders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette - Sep 17, 1941
Kerr's announcement in Toronto that he is retiring from hockey was not entirely unexpected here. After winning the Vezina Trophy two years ago he was known to have felt disappointment with his showing last year. He is 31, a veteran of 11 years in the NHL with Montreal Maroons and Rangers.

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05-29-2012, 06:03 PM
  #138
TheDevilMadeMe
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Lorne "Chabotsky" Chabot, G


  • #10 on the all time shutouts list
  • played the 2 longest overtimes in the history of the N.H.L.
  • won two Allan Cups (1925, 1926).
  • won two stanley cups(new york rangers1927&toronto maple leafs 1932)
  • won the vezina trophy 1935 and was selected a 1st Team All Star
  • has the lowest goals against average of any goaltender to play at least 10 seasons
  • invented the gauntlet glove for goaltender's
  • Ranked #84 on the THN Top 100 Players of All Time list

All Star voting:
1931: Tied for 5th (2 votes). Behind Gardiner, Thompson, Worters, Hainsworth. Tied with Roach.
1932: 6th (3 votes). Behind Gardiner, Worters, Thompson, Hainsworth, and Roach
1933: 5th (3 votes). Behind Roach, Gardiner, Worthers, and Thompson.
1934: Received 1 vote. Gardiner, Worters, Thompson, Cude, Hainsworth, Aitkenhead
1935: 1st Team All Star. Ahead of Thompson, Connell, Worters, Hainsworth.

No votes on the 1928 unofficial team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
It was in northwestern Ontario that Chabot first gained widespread fame. His relatively large 6-foot 1-inch frame and quick reflexes made him hard to beat. His stellar play contributed to Port Arthur's consecutive Allan Cup triumphs in 1925 and 1926. After the second of these, Conn Smythe signed Chabot to play for the New York Rangers.

As a rookie, "Sad Eyes" won 22 games, recorded 10 shutouts and took the starting netminder's job away from Hal Winkler. In 1927-28 he played all 44 regular-season matches and helped New York reach the Stanley Cup finals. In the second game of the championship series against the Montreal Maroons, an injury to Chabot precipitated one of the most famous maneuvers in Stanley Cup playoff history. Teams didn't carry a backup goalie, so Rangers manager Lester Patrick was forced to make an emergency appearance between the pipes. The "Silver Fox" backstopped the Blueshirts to an overtime win that shifted the momentum of the series and helped New York win its first Stanley Cup.

Prior to the 1928-29 schedule Chabot was sent to Toronto, where he posted a career-best 1.61 goals-against average and 12 shutouts. In 1931-32 he helped the franchise win its first Stanley Cup under the Maple Leafs banner. In the fifth game of the 1933 semifinals against Boston, the teams played 164 minutes and 46 seconds of scoreless hockey before the Leafs' Ken Doraty scored in the sixth overtime period. Chabot earned the shutout in what was the longest game in NHL history to that date. But in the finals the Rangers prevented the Leafs from repeating as champions.

In the fall of 1933 Chabot was traded to the Montreal Canadiens for George Hainsworth. The trade made the two men the first goalies ever to play for both storied teams. Following the death of the legendary Charlie Gardiner in 1934, the Chicago Black Hawks acquired Chabot in a trade that also involved Hall of Famers Howie Morenz and Lionel Conacher. Chabot showed no ill effects at having to replace the popular Gardiner as he went on to lead the NHL with a 1.80 goals-against mark. The NHL acknowledged his excellence by placing him on the First All-Star Team and presenting him with the Vezina Trophy.

"Old Bulwarks" played 16 regular-season games for the Montreal Maroons in 1935-36, and during the playoffs, on March 24, 1936, he played in the longest game in NHL history. Despite his heroic efforts in that game, the first of the semifinals, the Montrealers succumbed to the Detroit Red Wings when Mud Bruneteau scored the game's only goal after 116 minutes and 30 seconds of overtime. Chabot played 6 games with the New York Americans in 1936-37 before retiring with 201 wins and 73 shutouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
The Rangers marketing department thought they could use Chabot to draw interest from the city's large Jewish population. He was, believe it or not, to be listed and promoted as "Chabotsky," although Chabot refused to play along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie Morenz, 1935
Chabot, now goalie with our Chicago Blackhawks, comes nearest to approaching (Charlier) Gardiner's greatness. Not soon will I forget the night when Chabot, with four of his New York Rangers teammates off the ice for penalties, held our Canadiens scoreless. Two men against six, yet we could not get the puck past Chabot!
From Esquire's second sports reader, printed in 1945

http://books.google.com/books?id=wIZ...efense&f=false

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05-29-2012, 06:36 PM
  #139
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I also added some newspaper clippings to the John Ross Roach profile, which was pretty sparse.

After the Ross Roach and Chabot profiles, I'm strongly leaning towards Ross Roach as the better goalie. Better awards recognition, and it's much easier to find contemporary quotes praising his abilities. Makes THN's ranking of Chabot on their top 100 list all the more strange.

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05-30-2012, 09:43 PM
  #140
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This may or may not be of interest. I wanted to look at the NHA for Vezina and Benedict and ended up compiling all the numbers instead. I apologize for not taking the time to make it a chart and easier to read so I left the ugly stuff at the bottom.

I'd have to say Paddy Moran surprised me most here, but I'm not totally sure about the defensive chops of those Quebec Bulldogs. Vezina impressed as I expected and his consistency really sticks out here. Cards on the table, I've been looking for reasons to justify Georges over Benedict, but it's hard to scoff at the margins Praying Benny led the league by. There's a lot to be said about the strength of his team, but does that make up for two years where he smashed the competition, compared to one for Vezina? LeSueur is interesting to me too, if we expect Benedict to have nice GA numbers playing for a powerhouse, why wasn't Percy doing the same? I don't have the timeline down for when those Ottawa clubs were really clicking so maybe I'm showing some ignorance here, but I felt a little underwhelmed by his NHA numbers.

NHA GAA Ranks:
Benedict: 1 ('15), 1 ('16), 1 ('17)
Hern: 1 ('10), 3rd ('11)
LeSueur: 2 ('11), 3 ('10), 3 ('12), 3 ('14), 4 ('13), 6 ('15)
Moran: 1 ('13), 2 ('12), 3 ('16), T3 ('15), 4 ('10), 4 ('11), 4 ('14), T4 ('15),
Vezina: 1 ('11), 1 ('12), T1 ('14), 2 ('13), 2 ('15), 2 ('16), 2 ('17)

What 1st looked like on any given year (GP refer to season lengths, not that particular goalie)

Benedict: '15 65 GA to Vezina's 81 (20GP)
'16 72 GA to Vezina's 76 (24GP)
'17 50 GA to Vezina's 80 (20GP)

Hern: '10 41GA to Lindsay's 54 (12 GP)

Moran: '13 75 GA to Vezina's 81 (20 GP)

Vezina: '11 62 GA to LeSueur's 69 (16 GP)
'12 66 GA to Moran's 79 (18 GP)
'14 65 GA to Holmes' 65 (20 GP)

NHA Seasons
1910
Hern 41 GA in 12 GP for 3.4 GAA with 1SO - Wanderers 1st in GA
Lindsay 54 GA in 12 GP for 4.5 GAA with 0SO - Renfrew 2nd in GA
LeSueur 66 GA in 12 GP for 5.5 GAA with 1SO - Ottawa HC 3rd in GA
Moran 80 GA in 11 GP for 7.3 GAA with 0SO - Haileybury HC 4th in GA
Winchester 26 GA in 5 GP for 4.5 GAA with 0SO- Shamrocks 5th in GA
Broughton 43 GA in 5 GP for 8.6 GAA with 0SO - Shamrocks
Cattarinich 23 GA in 3 GP for 7.7 GAA with 0SO - Les Canadiens 6th in GA
Groulx 77 GA in 9 GP for 8.6 GAA with 0SO - Les Canadiens
Jones 104 GA in 12 GP for 8.7 GAA with 0SO - Cobalt 7th in GA

10-11
Vezina 62 GA in 16 GP for 3.9 GAA with 0SO - Canadiens 1st
LeSueur 69 GA in 16 GP for 4.3 GAA with 1 SO - Ottawa 2nd
Hern 88 GA in 16 GP for 5.5 GAA with 0SO - Wanderers 3rd
Moran 97 GA in 16 GP for 6.1 GAA with 0SO - Quebec 4th
Lindsay 101 GA in 16 GP for 6.3 GAA with 0SO - Renfrew 5th

11-12
Vezina 66 GA in 18 GP for 3.7 GAA with 0SO - Canadiens 1st
Moran 79 GA in 18 GP for 4.4 GAA with 0SO - Quebec 2nd
LeSueur 93 GA in 18 GP for 5.2 GAA with 0SO - Ottawa 3rd
Bryce 69 GA in 12 GP for 5.8 GAA with 0SO - Wanderers 4th

12-13
Moran 75 GA in 20 GP for 3.73 GAA with 1SO - Quebec 1st
Vezina 81 GA in 20 GP for 3.99 GAA with 1SO - Canadiens T2nd
Benedict 16 GA in 10 GP for 3.49 GAA with 1SO - Ottawa T2nd (shared duties in 8 games)
LeSueur 65 GA in 18 GP for 4.18 GAA with 0SO - Ottawa (shared duties in 8 games)
Boyce 67 GA in 18 GP for 4.16 GAA with 0SO - Wanderers 4th
Holmes 58 GA in 15 GP for 4.47 GAA with 1SO - Toronto HC 5th
Nicholson 98 GA in 20 GP for GAA 4.79 - Tecumsehs 6th

13-14
Holmes 65 GA in 20 GP for 3.3 GAA with 1SO - Toronto HC T1st
Vezina 65 GA in 20 GP for 3.3 GAA with 1 SO - Canadiens T1st
Benedict 23 GA in 7 GP for 3.3 GAA with 0SO - Ottawa 3rd
LeSueur 48 GA in 13 GP for 3.7 GAA with 1 SO Ottawa
Moran 73 GA in 20 GP for 3.7 GAA with 1 SO - Quebec 4th
Herbert 108 GA in 19 GP for 5.7 GAA with 0SO - Ontarios 5th
Nicholson 52 GA in 10 GP for 5.2 GAA with 0SO - Wanderers 6th

14-15
Benedict 65 GA in 20 GP for 3.3 GAA - Senators 1st
Vezina 81 GA in 20 GP for 4.1 GAA - Canadiens 2nd
McCarthy 82 GA in 19 GP for 4.3 GAA - Wanderers 3rd
Holmes 84 GA in 20 GP for 4.2 GAA - Toronto HC 4th
Moran 85 GA in 20 GP for 4.3 GAA - Quebec 5th
LeSueur 96 GA in 19 GP for 5.1 GAA - Ontarios-Shamrocks 6th

15-16
Benedict 72 GA in 24 GP for 3.0 GAA with 1 SO- Senators 1st
Vezina 76 GA in 24 GP for 3.2 GAA - Canadiens 2nd
Moran 82 GA in 22 GP for 3.7 GAA - Bulldogs T3rd
LeSueur 92 GA in 23 GP for 4.0 GAA with 1 SO - Toronto T3rd
Lindsay 110 GA in 23 GP for 4.8 GAA with 1 SO - Wanders 5th

16-17
Benedict 50 GA in 18 GP for 2.8 GAA with 1 SO - Senators 1st
Vezina 80 GA in 20 GP for 4.0 GAA - Canadiens 2nd
Herbert 84 GA in 15 GP for 5.6 GAA Bulldogs 3rd (also played for Ottawa?)
Lindsay 96 GA in 15 GP for 6.4 GAA Wanderers 4th

(These two Toronto squads played only the first half of the year)
Nicholson 40 GA in 10 GP for 4.0 GAA with 1 SO - Toronto HC (3rd in first half of season)
Lockhart 69 GA in 12 GP for 5.8 GAA with 1 SO - 228th (4th in first half of season)

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05-31-2012, 11:30 AM
  #141
overpass
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An interesting article from Dink Carroll in 1955, where he speaks with Wilf Cude.

When Goalkeepers Get Lucky
Quote:
"Sawchuk was just telling me that Hall has as fast a pair of hands as he's ever seen," said Wilf. "He looked real good tonight."

"How come Jack Adams is so lucky with his goalkeepers?" he was asked.

"I wouldn't say it was luck," Wilf replied. "I think it's the Red Wings' system that produces good goalkeepers. They usually have a good defense and their forwards come back. They have a trailer on every play and opposing teams don't get many breakaways."

"Take a fellow like Harry Lumley. Harry's really had three careers. He came up with the Red Wings and was a star. Then he was traded to the Black Hawks and he looked like just another goalkeeper. After that he went to the Toronto Leafs, a team that gave him good protection, and he was a star again."

There is an old saying in hockey that a goalkeeper is no better than the defense in front of him and his back-checking forwards. If that's true, then one goalkeeper is just as good as another.

"I wouldn't say that," Wilf said quickly. "A good defense and forwards who check back can make a mediocre goalkeeper look better than he is. A team with a weak defense and forwards who don't come back can make a good goalkeeper look bad. If a goalkeeper is lucky he lands with a team that gives him good protection. Roy Worters was a good goalkeeper, but he played for teams that never gave him much protection. That was Roy's bad luck.

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05-31-2012, 01:06 PM
  #142
TheDevilMadeMe
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Team effects GAA before the forward pass (and Frank Nighbor's effect on Benedict)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBS
14-15
Benedict 65 GA in 20 GP for 3.3 GAA - Senators 1st
Vezina 81 GA in 20 GP for 4.1 GAA - Canadiens 2nd
McCarthy 82 GA in 19 GP for 4.3 GAA - Wanderers 3rd
Holmes 84 GA in 20 GP for 4.2 GAA - Toronto HC 4th
Moran 85 GA in 20 GP for 4.3 GAA - Quebec 5th
LeSueur 96 GA in 19 GP for 5.1 GAA - Ontarios-Shamrocks 6th

15-16 (TDMM: Frank Nighbor's first season in Ottawa)
Benedict 72 GA in 24 GP for 3.0 GAA with 1 SO- Senators 1st
Vezina 76 GA in 24 GP for 3.2 GAA - Canadiens 2nd
Moran 82 GA in 22 GP for 3.7 GAA - Bulldogs T3rd
LeSueur 92 GA in 23 GP for 4.0 GAA with 1 SO - Toronto T3rd
Lindsay 110 GA in 23 GP for 4.8 GAA with 1 SO - Wanders 5th

16-17
Benedict 50 GA in 18 GP for 2.8 GAA with 1 SO - Senators 1st
Vezina 80 GA in 20 GP for 4.0 GAA - Canadiens 2nd
Herbert 84 GA in 15 GP for 5.6 GAA Bulldogs 3rd (also played for Ottawa?)
Lindsay 96 GA in 15 GP for 6.4 GAA Wanderers 4th
I'm just going to use hockey reference's GAA numbers for the NHL because it's easier

1917-18 (Frank Nighbor missed more than half the season)
1. Georges Vezina*-MTL 3.93
2. Hap Holmes*-TRA 4.73
3. Clint Benedict*-OTS 5.12

1918-1919
1. Clint Benedict*-OTS 2.76
2. Georges Vezina*-MTL 4.19
3. Bert Lindsay-TRA 4.99

1919-20
1. Clint Benedict*-OTS 2.66
2. Mike Mitchell-TRS 4.34
3. Georges Vezina*-MTL 4.66
4. Howard Lockhart-TOT 5.84
5. Frank Brophy-QBC 7.11

1920-21
1. Clint Benedict*-OTS 3.08
2. Jake Forbes-TRS 3.83
3. Georges Vezina*-MTL 4.12
4. Howard Lockhart-HAM 5.45

1921-22
1. Clint Benedict*-OTS 3.34
2. Georges Vezina*-MTL 3.84
3. John Ross Roach-TRS 4.07
4. Howard Lockhart-HAM 4.39

1922-23
1. Clint Benedict*-OTS 2.18
2. Georges Vezina*-MTL 2.46
3. John Ross Roach-TRS 3.59
4. Jake Forbes-HAM 4.4

1923-24
1. Georges Vezina*-MTL 1.97
2. Clint Benedict*-OTS 1.99
3. Jake Forbes-HAM 2.75
4. John Ross Roach-TRS 3.48

1924-25
1. Georges Vezina*-MTL 1.81
2. Jake Forbes-HAM 1.96
3. Clint Benedict*-MTM 2.12
4. Alec Connell*-OTS 2.14
5. John Ross Roach-TRS 2.80

1925-26
1. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.12
2. Roy Worters*-PTP 1.90
3. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.91
4. Charles Stewart-BOS 2.21
5. Jake Forbes-NYA 2.30

1926-27
1. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.42
2. Lorne Chabot-NYR 1.46
3. George Hainsworth*-MTL 1.47
4. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.49
5. Hal Winkler-TOT 1.72

1927-28
1. George Hainsworth*-MTL 1.05
2. Alec Connell*-OTS 1.24
3. Hal Winkler-BOS 1.51
4. Roy Worters*-PTP 1.66
5. Clint Benedict*-MTM 1.70

1928-29
1. George Hainsworth*-MTL 0.92
2. Tiny Thompson*-BOS 1.15
3. Roy Worters*-NYA 1.15
4. Dolly Dolson-DTC 1.37
5. John Ross Roach-NYR 1.4

General Team effects
  • Notice how the Toronto St Pats (TRS) had very strong GAA three seasons in a row from 1919-20 to 1921-22, all with different goalies. This suggests that GAA was largely dependent on the team back then.
  • There does appear to be a big difference between star goalies and lesser goalies. Montreal had the best GAA in the league in Vezina's last two seasons (1923-24 and 1924-24), tanked after he was forced to recover, then picked up right where they left off with George Hainsworth

Frank Nighbor's effect in Ottawa when Benedict was the starter

1915-16 was Nighbor's first season in Ottawa. Clint Benedict led the NHA in GAA for the first time in 1914-15, so he showed he could do it without Nighbor.

However, Benedict's GAA tanked in 1917-18, when Nighbor missed half the season serving in the war:

Quote:
Nighbor's extended absence in '18 gives us an idea of his importance to his team.

Discounting the Montreal Wanderers, who folded early in the season (only played 6 games), The '18 Ottawa Senators had the worst GA and the worst GF in the NHL, and missed the playoffs.

Ottawa without Nighbor in '18
3-9 record
59 GF, 73 GA

Ottawa with Nighbor in '18
5-5 record
43 GF, 40 GA

Lalonde's goals vs Ottawa with Nighbor: 1 game, 1g
Lalonde's goals vs Ottawa without Nighbor: 5 games, 8g

Malone's goals vs Ottawa with Nighbor: 3 games, 1g
Malone's goals vs Ottawa without Nighbor: 7 games, 23g

Malone's '18 season has become legendary. He scored 44g in 22 games, the highest goals per game pace in NHL history. But even more amazing is that he scored over half of those goals in 7 games against Ottawa when Nighbor was out of the lineup.
Nighbor missed a single game in 1919-20 and Joe Malone again ran wild:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen: 3-11-1920
Winning Streak of Champion Senators Stopped at Nine Straight as Lowly "Bulldogs" Defeated Them 10-4 over Slushy Sheet of Ice. Ottawas Were Without Frank Nighbor and Joe Malone Ran Wild. Scoring Six Goals.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=22

By the time the NHA had become the NHL, Frank Nighbor appeared to be more responsible for Ottawa's GAA than Clint Benedict. Remember, this is before the forward pass, so a forward could dominate defensively in ways that would be impossible today.

After Benedict left Ottawa
  • The Senators traded Benedict to the newly created Montreal Maroons for cash for the 1924-25 season. The Senators were having trouble financially, and also had issues with Benedict's developing alcoholism.
  • Ottawa went with the young Alex Connell and both Ottawa and Benedict's numbers declined.
  • Benedict's effect on the Maroons was recognized as he finished 3rd in Hart voting in his first season there.
  • Ottawa was back up to top GAA in the league the following year, though, behind Connell.
  • Notice that Ottawa's GAA tanks in 1928-29 when an aging Nighbor misses a significant portion of the season.
  • In 1926-27, Benedict led the league in GAA, this time playing for the Maroons. He did not finish in the top 11 of Hart voting (all that we have records for), however a defensive defenseman named Dunc Munro finished 7th in Hart voting for the Maroons. Roy Worters got the most Hart recognition among goalies, tied for 10th. This is the season that Hainsworth was awarded the inaugural Vezina because Benedict missed 2 games and his backup allowed too many goals.

Conclusion: GAA of the era was largely team based. But goalies had a definite effect too, best illustrated by Montreal's GAA tanking after Vezina was forced to retire and recovering after getting Hainsworth. Frank Nighbor appears to have been more important to Ottawa's GAA in the NHL years than either Clint Benedict or Alec Connell. However, Benedict was important too, as their GAA dropped significantly the first season after he left (but did recover at least for one season). Benedict also led the NHA in GAA in 1914-15, one season before Nighbor arrived.

Benedict was 3rd in Hart voting his first season outside of Ottawa (1924-25) for the newly created Montreal Maroons, helping them to a league averager GAA. However, when he led the league in GAA for the Maroons in 1926-27, he didn't receive Hart consideration, instead it went to his defenseman Dunc Munro. Roy Worters, who was not top 5 in GAA was the goalie who got the most Hart votes (but even he didn't get many).

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06-07-2012, 02:16 PM
  #143
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Profiles needed:

John Bouse Hutton
Harry Lumley

I think we can get away with mini-profile for Hutton

I would also like a newspaper-researched comparison of the playoff records of Hugh Lehman and Hap Holmes. Lehman appears to have widely been considered the best goalie in the PCHA, but Holmes has a much better playoff record. How much should be attributed to each goalie?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-22-2012 at 10:42 AM.
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08-08-2012, 10:11 PM
  #144
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Comprehensive Paddy Moran Profile completed here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...87&postcount=4

I also added it to the second post of the thread since I neglected to reserve space for it.

Still need profiles of John Bouse Hutton and Harry Lumley.

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09-22-2012, 10:27 AM
  #145
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If anyone wants to discuss the Early era goalies before submitting your Top 60 list, this is the place to do it

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09-22-2012, 11:52 AM
  #146
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Dave Kerr


Lorne "Chabotsky" Chabot


Awesome! Where did you guys source these from?...

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09-22-2012, 01:08 PM
  #147
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Magazine Archives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Dave Kerr


Lorne "Chabotsky" Chabot


Awesome! Where did you guys source these from?...
Time Magazine cover archives:

http://www.time.com/time/archive

Most popular or long running magazines have cover archives or are available on paper memorabilia dealer sites.

Just Google the magazine title with cover archives.

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09-22-2012, 02:57 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Just Google the magazine title with cover archives.
... thanks C58. Learn something new every day.
What a great resource, nifty search technique & trick.

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10-31-2012, 02:16 PM
  #149
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Here's an article that precisely spells out the early Vezina critera:

Quote:
Contrary to the belief held by many hockey followers, the Vezina Trophy - in memory of the old Canadiens' goalie Georges Vezina - is not awarded to the goalie with the best individual goals-against-average.

The trophy - and the $1000 cash for which the netminders are scrambling wildly - goes to the goalie of the team which has the least goals scored on it during the season.

Goals scored against sub-goalies count in the team's "against" total and thus are chargeable to the regular goalie.
Ottawa Citizen, Feb 12, 1949

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11-10-2012, 03:56 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Using this as a dumping ground for quotes I find on Clint Benedict. Vezina's profile was the result of the research of 3 people (Dreakmur, Nayld Psycho, and me). As far as I know, only 1 person (vecens) did a complete search for Benedict quotes for his profile, so now it's two.

I'll organize these and the ones on Vezina into an argument in the Vote 3 thread in a few days.

Quote:
Clint Benedict, one of the greatest goaltenders the game has ever produced... (will return to the NHL as a ref)

The return of Benedict to the league that he helped to make great will be welcomed all over the circuit
Ottawa Citizen, Dec 5, 1931

Quote:
Clint Benedict, idol of Ottawa and Montreal Maroons fans until Father Time caught up to him...
Ottawa Citizen, Jan 24, 1938

Chicago considered trading a young Charlie Gardiner for an aging Clint Benedict (it fell through obviously):

Quote:
Gardiner is only a youngster, but would like to get away from Chicago. Regarded as one of the most brilliant goaltenders in the league, he has been ridden unmercifully by Chicago fans, who have been unmindful of the fact that Chuck has a poor team in front of him. He always played far better in other cities than at home.
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Oct 16 ,1929

Quote:
When Rangers and Maroons players got together to celebrate the Rangers' Stanley Cup win after the game Saturday night, Clint Benedict, maroons goalie, and one of the heros of the series, and Frank Boucher, whose goals brought the championship to the Rangers camp, went into a prolonged fanning bee at one end of the banquet hall.... Frankie put Benedict in an embarrassing position by recalling the times when, as a young player, he was want to listen to the them-Ottawa goalkeeper, from whom Frankie picked up many useful tricks.
Montreal Gazette, April 18, 1928

Quote:
It is whispered around hockey circles that Benedict, the great Ottawa goalkeeper who some say is just as good as Percy Leseuer, is dissatisfied with his position in the capital...
Ottawa Citizen, Dec 2, 1913

In 1948, Kenny McKenize, hockey journalist and co-founder of The Hockey News called Benedict the greatest goaltender of all-time. He recalled a save Benedict made on Duke Keats that made Keats "so mad that he couldn't speak for 2 hours after the game."

Vancouver Sun, Oct 13, 1948

This article summarizes Benedict's career after it was announced he was sent down to the IHL to end his NHL career:

Quote:
Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years
...
Tall, and apparently gawky and awkward, with a shambling style of skating, Benedict possessed an eagle eye and the quickness of a cat. In the days when goalers were not allowed to drop to the ice to stop shots, Benedict was dubbed "Tumbling Clint," because he insisted on going to his knees to stop shots, and the records of those distant days indicate that he was penalized more than once for thus breaking the playing rules. Later, when it became permissible for a goaler to drop to any position he wished to stop a shot, Benedict became almost unbeatable. He and the late Georges Vezina were the admitted kings of the nets.
...
Known as one of the game's great "money players," Benedict has figured in half a score of play-off series.
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Nov 13, 1930

Quote:
Nobody was a more accomplished faker than Clint Benedict. When Benedict needed to drop to ice level to make a save, he simply improvised a fall and then would innocently tell the official, "Sorry, I slipped." Fans of opposing teams rightfully grew disgusted with the prostrate Benedict and his attempts to circumvent the rules. "Bring your bed, Benny." was commonly heard in arenas wherever he played.
The Record, Kitchener-Ont, Oct 12, 1995

Quote:
Hard numbers tell only so much of his story, however. Where Vézina played a conventional stand-up style that left his pads dry at game's end, Benedict was the Dominik Hasek of his time, flopping in his crease like a fish out of water.
Every modern-day goaltender owes a little of their butterfly or pad-stacking technique to Benedict, whose dropping to the ice bullied the new-born NHL to introduce a rule in 1918 allowing a goaler to leave his skates.
Indeed, he had been nicknamed "Praying Benny" by sarcastic Toronto fans for his habit of falling to his knees, allegedly to thank the Lord during a scramble or after a save.
"If you did it a little bit sneaky and made it look accidental,you could fall on the puck without being penalized," Benedict said in 1964.
Montreal Gazette, June 2, 2008

Quote:
It was only remembered by a few hard-case hockey fans that Benedict, who died in a hospital at the age of 82, helped to literally change the face of modern hockey.

Despite all the credit given to Jacques Plante of the Montreal Canadiens for bringing the face mask to hockey goaltending in the 1960s, it was in fact Benedict who wore the first mask seen in the National Hockey League - in 1922.

He was also among the goalies who eventually forced NHL governors to allow them to drop to the ice to stop a shot - then forbidden by the rules.

"You had to be sneaky," Benedict once recalled. "You'd make a move, fake losing your balance or footing and put the officials on the spot - did I fall or did I intentionally go down?"

"It was fun because you were playing games with the officials."

The mask was more shortlived... "I wore it the next game and we lost. I blamed the mask and threw it away."
The Leader Post, Nov 22, 1976

Quote:
The boys were talking about goaltending greats in the aftergame discussion at Cornell last night and Jim McCafffrey was firm in his stand that Benedict was tops.... JP is willing to settle for Frank Brimsek among the present-day puck stoppers and calls Jack Crawford the best defenseman of all...
Ottawa Cititzen, March 10, 1943

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