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Old
11-09-2012, 02:58 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Good God, talk about revisionist history. Marchand played in 20 games in 2009-10 and had one assist. And he was the one who'd make the difference in the playoffs? And why would you put blame on Julien for not recognizing this "diamond in the rough" when it's up Chiarelli to make roster moves?

I can't believe that even after a Cup win, even after climbing the ladder as one of the winningest coaches in Bruins history, even after Marchand and Seguin are on record as crediting him with making them the players they are, even after members of the Bruins have routinely praised him, Julien STILL gets crap on these boards.
I've earned the right, you apparently haven't. And I'd hardly call pointing out some of his lower moments "giving him crap". The man isn't the next incarnation of Vishnu.

It's not revisionist when we saw how Whitfield worked out, yet Marchand emerges as a sparkplug in just one off season. Whitfield was the "safe bet" and Clode took it. IMO it was the wrong move. It fit Claude's M.O at the time for moving too slowly . It's how he did things, often times no matter what the circumstances. He would plug the most obvious and safest player into the lineup. Most players who "make it" attribute their success to their first NHL coach. It's others like fans who can sit back and often see a bigger picture that might include a coach moving too slowly. If Bergy doesn't go out, do we ever see Seguin in the P.O run for the cup? Perfect example of too slow at times.

It's one critique among just a few. He brought stability, discipline and an honorable attitude to the city. He should get all the praise in the world for these things. But the man isn't infallible, no one is.


Last edited by doubleminor138: 11-09-2012 at 04:59 PM. Reason: edited out crap
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11-09-2012, 03:01 PM
  #27
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This thread is quite priceless.

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11-09-2012, 03:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by disfigured View Post
I've earned the right, you apparently haven't. And I'd hardly call pointing out some of his lower moments "giving him crap". The man isn't the next incarnation of Vishnu.

It's not revisionist when we saw how Whitfield worked out, yet Marchand emerges as a sparkplug in just one off season. Whitfield was the "safe bet" and Clode took it. IMO it was the wrong move. It fit Claude's M.O at the time for moving too slowly . It's how he did things, often times no matter what the circumstances. He would plug the most obvious and safest player into the lineup. Most players who "make it" attribute their success to their first NHL coach. It's others like fans who can sit back and often see a bigger picture that might include a coach moving too slowly. If Bergy doesn't go out, do we ever see Seguin in the P.O run for the cup? Perfect example of too slow at times.

It's one critique among just a few. He brought stability, discipline and an honorable attitude to the city. He should get all the praise in the world for these things. But the man isn't infallible, no one is.
1. I have no idea what that means.

2. Marchand didn't "emerge as a sparkplug in just one offseason." He spent a good portion of 2010-11 on the fourth line and worked his way up to the second line, due in part to his own diligence and effort, and in part to work put in with him by the coaching staff. He didn't score his first goal until the ninth game of the season, and halfway through the season he had nine goals; you're acting as if he was in playoff form right off the bat. He wasn't.

3. Didn't realize I was trying to argue with a junior high student. My bad.


Last edited by doubleminor138: 11-09-2012 at 05:00 PM. Reason: removed quoted deleted text
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11-09-2012, 03:28 PM
  #29
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It was a great read but a lot of the article had very little to do with Mike Keenan, a lot of Roenick just telling stories of his party days while Keenan happened to be his coach.

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11-09-2012, 03:42 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disfigured View Post
I've earned the right, you apparently haven't. And I'd hardly call pointing out some of his lower moments "giving him crap". The man isn't the next incarnation of Vishnu.

It's not revisionist when we saw how Whitfield worked out, yet Marchand emerges as a sparkplug in just one off season. Whitfield was the "safe bet" and Clode took it. IMO it was the wrong move. It fit Claude's M.O at the time for moving too slowly . It's how he did things, often times no matter what the circumstances. He would plug the most obvious and safest player into the lineup. Most players who "make it" attribute their success to their first NHL coach. It's others like fans who can sit back and often see a bigger picture that might include a coach moving too slowly. If Bergy doesn't go out, do we ever see Seguin in the P.O run for the cup? Perfect example of too slow at times.

It's one critique among just a few. He brought stability, discipline and an honorable attitude to the city. He should get all the praise in the world for these things. But the man isn't infallible, no one is.
Ok, that, was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

Another good example is the PP. Curious to see his approach to the PP this year (or next year at this rate) in regard to Seguin. Watching Krejci try and pound a square peg into a round hole on the PP for the last 2 years has been infuriating. Seguin hardly could have done worse w/ the time DK has had.


Last edited by doubleminor138: 11-09-2012 at 05:00 PM. Reason: removed "hilarious garbage"
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11-09-2012, 03:44 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
1. I have no idea what that means.

2. Marchand didn't "emerge as a sparkplug in just one offseason." He spent a good portion of 2010-11 on the fourth line and worked his way up to the second line, due in part to his own diligence and effort, and in part to work put in with him by the coaching staff. He didn't score his first goal until the ninth game of the season, and halfway through the season he had nine goals; you're acting as if he was in playoff form right off the bat. He wasn't.

3. Didn't realize I was trying to argue with a junior high student. My bad.
Stats aren't everything.

When on the 4th line he was a sparkplug. Energy was Marchand's game. Granted a bit unbridled and stupid at times, but energy non the less. And that series needed someone with energy to help a decimated team, that player could have been Marchand, but it wasn't. What did Trent Whitfield contribute on the sheet for those 4 P.O games? Nada, squat, nil. So in hindsight with the stats a wash at zip, who would you have rather had in there against Philly up by 3 in a 7th game? Trent Whitfield? I would have rather had a pre next year's training camp Marchand, but that's just me.

It's just an opinion, not based on stats (god forbid). It's not an attempt to remove the statue of Claude from your front lawn.

Jeez you act like a jilted lover if someone mentions Clode isn't perfect.

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11-09-2012, 03:48 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disfigured View Post
Stats aren't everything.

When on the 4th line he was a sparkplug. Energy was Marchand's game. Granted a bit unbridled and stupid at times, but energy non the less. And that series needed someone with energy to help a decimated team, that player could have been Marchand, but it wasn't. What did Trent Whitfield contribute on the sheet for those 4 P.O games? Nada, squat, nil. So in hindsight with the stats a wash at zip, who would you have rather had in there against Philly up by 3 in a 7th game? Trent Whitfield? I would have rather had a pre next year's training camp Marchand, but that's just me.

It's just an opinion, not based on stats (god forbid). It's not an attempt to remove the statue of Claude from your front lawn.

Jeez you act like a jilted lover if someone mentions Clode isn't perfect.
I still don't get the "earned the right" reference.

And yeah, I don't think Julien is perfect, by any means. Nobody is. But at least I respect the guy enough to spell his name correctly.

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11-09-2012, 03:49 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely08 View Post
Ok, that, was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.

Another good example is the PP. Curious to see his approach to the PP this year (or next year at this rate) in regard to Seguin. Watching Krejci try and pound a square peg into a round hole on the PP for the last 2 years has been infuriating. Seguin hardly could have done worse w/ the time DK has had.
It was single digit(s) going into the POs. Unheard of. I could have drawn names out of a hat done better. And how about those shoot out line ups? The man has all the T's crossed and I's dotted, but there's absolutely no hunch in him at all. Not even obvious ones, like putting a hot hand out more often, or in a shoot out line up.

I love the guy for helping us get the cup, I think he's a good coach, possibly great if given enough time. But he's not above reproach.

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11-09-2012, 03:53 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
I still don't get the "earned the right" reference.

And yeah, I don't think Julien is perfect, by any means. Nobody is. But at least I respect the guy enough to spell his name correctly.
I think I've earned the right to not fawn all over the guy having spent the better part of my entire adult life (some 30+ years), living and breathing the team.

When Clode's gone, I'll still be here. I was here enduring the bad times before he arrived, and I'll be here after he's gone.

Clode, Claude, Chode, what ever..... I'm going through withdrawals here, gimme a break.

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11-09-2012, 04:04 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by disfigured View Post
I think I've earned the right to not fawn all over the guy having spent the better part of my entire adult life (some 30+ years), living and breathing the team.

When Clode's gone, I'll still be here. I was here enduring the bad times before he arrived, and I'll be here after he's gone.

Clode, Claude, Chode, what ever..... I'm going through withdrawals here, gimme a break.
And I'm 55. Been a Bruins fan since Terry O'Reilly was a pup. But I haven't "earned the right." Gotcha.

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11-09-2012, 04:15 PM
  #36
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Claude's PP strategy is fine when you have guys like Savard, Kessel, Wideman and Ryder together on it... that PP in 08-09 was MAGNIFICENT IIRC.... Chara had what a dozen goals on the PP that year?

When you replace guys like those with Krejci, Peverley, Corvo and Pouliot you are losing that battle big time..

I love Peverley, but he should never, ever lead your team in PP time per game.

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11-09-2012, 04:33 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
And I'm 55. Been a Bruins fan since Terry O'Reilly was a pup. But I haven't "earned the right." Gotcha.
Then stop acting like a smitten school girl and maybe people won't make the mistake of thinking you haven't earned the right to be critical.

Quote:
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I love Peverley, but he should never, ever lead your team in PP time per game.
Claude's trying to protect his record for having a team never give up an odd man rush during a man advantage.

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11-09-2012, 05:09 PM
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I deleted the funny stuff. Yeap. That's how I do it.

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11-09-2012, 06:50 PM
  #39
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I have never been quite able to make up my mind as to which is the bigger @$$hole, Roenick or Keenan.
Keenan.

Picked up the book tonight so we shall see if it is any good. It was flipping expensive too.

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11-09-2012, 07:22 PM
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^^^ Keenan is a major "Richard" IMO.

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11-10-2012, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Claude's PP strategy is fine when you have guys like Savard, Kessel, Wideman and Ryder together on it... that PP in 08-09 was MAGNIFICENT IIRC.... Chara had what a dozen goals on the PP that year?

When you replace guys like those with Krejci, Peverley, Corvo and Pouliot you are losing that battle big time..

I love Peverley, but he should never, ever lead your team in PP time per game.
Why I'd like to consistently see Seguin in DK's spot w/ players he's already shown some natural chemistry with. Like Lucic, or Bergeron. At least Seguin is shifty enough to draw pkers down low w/ him, much like Savard did, and give Chara a chance in an open shooting lane for once. Pkers would at least have to deal w/ a triple threat (i.e. pass, shot and a one-timer at that, explosive "make you look stupid" speed).

He's had time on the PP but not on the 1st line time. Further, not near enough for him to feel confident enough to just try stuff. Instead he's been on eggshells knowing CJ has him under a microscope.

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11-10-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by disfigured View Post
It was single digit(s) going into the POs. Unheard of. I could have drawn names out of a hat done better. And how about those shoot out line ups? The man has all the T's crossed and I's dotted, but there's absolutely no hunch in him at all. Not even obvious ones, like putting a hot hand out more often, or in a shoot out line up.

I love the guy for helping us get the cup, I think he's a good coach, possibly great if given enough time. But he's not above reproach.
Agreed. He has his flaws, and has had his share of rough patches. But, as you said, he got us there, that can't be denied either. When it comes to the PP, it's like watching a 2 year old try and jam a round peg into a square hole. And, when this team struggles, there's been times where they just appear to be allergic to offense.

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11-10-2012, 04:57 PM
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I have never been quite able to make up my mind as to which is the bigger *******, Roenick or Keenan.
Keenan, in a landslide, and I like him. Whatever one thinks of JR, the league lost a character when he hung them up. It's great when he gives Milbury (yes, I like *him* as a coach, too!) an earful. He isn't intimidated one bit.

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11-10-2012, 05:45 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely08 View Post
Why I'd like to consistently see Seguin in DK's spot w/ players he's already shown some natural chemistry with. Like Lucic, or Bergeron. At least Seguin is shifty enough to draw pkers down low w/ him, much like Savard did, and give Chara a chance in an open shooting lane for once. Pkers would at least have to deal w/ a triple threat (i.e. pass, shot and a one-timer at that, explosive "make you look stupid" speed).

He's had time on the PP but not on the 1st line time. Further, not near enough for him to feel confident enough to just try stuff. Instead he's been on eggshells knowing CJ has him under a microscope.
This might sound cyincal, but I think Seguin will get more PPTOI now he has a six year contract. But yeah, time to build the power play around Seguin.

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11-11-2012, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Claude's PP strategy is fine when you have guys like Savard, Kessel, Wideman and Ryder together on it... that PP in 08-09 was MAGNIFICENT IIRC.... Chara had what a dozen goals on the PP that year?

When you replace guys like those with Krejci, Peverley, Corvo and Pouliot you are losing that battle big time..

I love Peverley, but he should never, ever lead your team in PP time per game.
Claude's PP strategy is fine, period. We have a lack of explosive talent on the front end which is hampering our ability to penetrate opposing penalty kills and make plays when the other team knows we're coming. Seguin isn't going to solve that on his own. We also have a severe lack of dependable playmaking on the back end.

The problems with our power play are centered on the roster, not Claude's tactics, and they're only 'problems' in the sense that this team isn't built to score on the power play at an elite level. That's not what either Chiarelli or Claude are focused on as job one, which is fine by me since I don't want a team that's dependent on the largesse of the refs in order to do its best work. The best teams do their work in the puck possession game and in the neutral zone, not on the power play.

All I demand of this team is that the power play not be the kind of festering sore it was during 2010-2011. And that, at least, they've managed to accomplish.


Last edited by Dojji*: 11-11-2012 at 05:18 AM.
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11-11-2012, 05:17 AM
  #46
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This might sound cyincal, but I think Seguin will get more PPTOI now he has a six year contract. But yeah, time to build the power play around Seguin.
If by that you mean adjusting the roster to include other factors that teams that have good power plays have that we don't, such as adding a solid playmaking defenseman and at least one more really good skater with an accurate shot, and then featuring Seguin alongside those things as the centerpieces of the first powerplay unit, fine, agree 100%. Just rearranging deck chairs won't accomplish much more than we're already doing.

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11-11-2012, 05:37 AM
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.

It's not revisionist when we saw how Whitfield worked out, yet Marchand emerges as a sparkplug in just one off season.
Actually, I'd just like to point out that this is the textbook definition of revisionism.

Quote:
Whitfield was the "safe bet" and Clode took it. IMO it was the wrong move. It fit Claude's M.O at the time for moving too slowly . It's how he did things, often times no matter what the circumstances. He would plug the most obvious and safest player into the lineup.
This is nonsense. Claude didn't trust Marchand because Marchand had done diddly to earn his trust at that point. Period, end of sentence. Once he earned it, he got it. That's how this thing works.

And you're right, that is Claude's MO -- and for the most part that MO has seen us consistently produce young players who contribute solidly to the success of the team, be they on the fourth line or the two homegrown members of our first line and the three homegrown members of our second, none of which are over the age of 30 and 4 of the 5 of which were developed successfully, since their debuts, by Claude Julien.

And this has been true despite whatever you want to do to moan about how slow the process of turning a boy into a man can take.

I can think of maybe 1 or 2 coaches in the entire league at this point that I'd put in charge of a young team ahead of Julien

Quote:
Most players who "make it" attribute their success to their first NHL coach. It's others like fans who can sit back and often see a bigger picture that might include a coach moving too slowly.
Are you really trying to claim you know more about what's going on down on the ice level than the players do? You're really not that arrogant are you?

Quote:
If Bergy doesn't go out, do we ever see Seguin in the P.O run for the cup? Perfect example of too slow at times.
Really no. Seguin was never going to be on the shelf for the entire postseason. Bergeron's injury just marked a convenient transition point. The fact is that most teams have an injury to a forward by the time they hit the third round. Whenever that injury happened, Seguin was ready to come in and play.

During the first two rounds, being that the teams we were playing were the Canadiens and the Flyers, I would have put Thornton out there too, if my options were Thornton and what Seguin had shown himself to be in the regular season that year. Thornton is just the better matchup for those games. Against a quicker, defensively softer Lightning team was the time to bring Seguin in. I think we may have seen that happen regardless of what happened to Bergeron, although of course we'll never know.

Fans have this tendency to vote on potential, that doesn't work in a playoff series. They remember the handful of times a team with nothing to lose threw some young stud out there and it worked brilliantly, and since they lose nothing in the gamble, are more than willing to try Mystery Young Player X on the chance it'll happen again. A coach can't do that. They have to play the matchups based on what they know and what their gut says is the best chance to win. There will be plenty of time the next year to turn young potential into reality.

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It's one critique among just a few. He brought stability, discipline and an honorable attitude to the city. He should get all the praise in the world for these things. But the man isn't infallible, no one is.
Sure he isn't infallible. But criticizing him for not being clairvoyant, or for playing the matchups in a way that reveals no particular fanboyish obsession with the potential of prospects, is just loopy.

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11-11-2012, 07:44 AM
  #48
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I have never been quite able to make up my mind as to which is the bigger *******, Roenick or Keenan.
/ thread, ya nailed it

I was a huge JR fan in his Blackhawk days, loved his game, his exhuberance and I`ve never been too bothered by a kid with swagger who can consistently back it up, and JR did when others can`t yet still try and maintain that swagger.

Where I fell out of JR favour was, as his career was clearly in a consistent and obvious downswing, he carried on this act, and it was one that came across almost as though his attitude was if he could make noise with his mouth, for the media, fans will fail to see what a joke his all around game had become.

There`s being an outspoken person but doing so with an intelligent and timely approach, JR just spewed junk, and often it was misguided and made him look like a 35 year old punk who was bitter that he no longer had the impact on the game he once had

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11-11-2012, 11:36 AM
  #49
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If by that you mean adjusting the roster to include other factors that teams that have good power plays have that we don't, such as adding a solid playmaking defenseman and at least one more really good skater with an accurate shot, and then featuring Seguin alongside those things as the centerpieces of the first powerplay unit, fine, agree 100%. Just rearranging deck chairs won't accomplish much more than we're already doing.
I agree 100% itís an issue of talent (power play before Marc Savard and after should illustrate this clearly), but Seguin is by far our best offensive talent. I think Seguin getting the majority of the power play time canít be worse than it currently is and has the potential to be better because Seguin has more tools than guys like Bergeron and Krejci on the half boards.

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11-11-2012, 03:18 PM
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I think people are a little too anxious to rush Segs right into the middle of things. I agree that eventually he needs to be our star forward and put into a position where he touches the puck as much as possible in the offensive zone. Ask me whether that needs to happen next year I'm a lot less positive. That's a much easier call for a fan to make than it is for a coach, and it's not like there's nothing to lose.

Seguin has demonstrated that he can be a solid wing when supported by two of our best forwards. Not a bad start. I want to see more consistency and more progress before I just completely turn the offense over to the guy though. There's no rush. We'll have Tyler Seguin for a long time to come.

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