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Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-10-2012, 04:17 PM
  #126
tony d
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Looking at his stats Parent looks like a product of Shero. From 1973 to 1977 with Shero as his coach Parent posted outstanding numbers. When Shero left Parent's numbers went down. So Parent's peak is as good as anyone on this list but it's just his peak wasn't as long as many of us thought.

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11-10-2012, 06:27 PM
  #127
Mike Farkas
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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I also value how much Esposito dominated his own backups statistically. Parent can't exactly say that (hell, Stephenson gets them to the Cup in '76 just the same). I'm just trying to gauge the feeling of the group and if I'm missing something important here. It seems Parent is above this obvious divide above Esposito...and granted Parent's two years were amazing and Tony O had his playoff struggles to whatever degree...but I keeping looking for "what else" with Parent and every time I check, I think I sour on him a little more.

I'm just worried that this opens the door for others to get away with having an unsustained, short peak - which allows more room to question how much was team-influenced - and an otherwise "meh" to "very good" career. Parent, of course, has a good career...but how much mileage is really going to get out of those two years in the grand scheme of things?

I'm sorry that this is how I handle things, but looking at Wayne Stephenson - who appears to be a career backup who only surfaced after another couple rounds of expansion (was 22 when the big first expansion hit) took place...this guy, during this stretch of Flyer dominance, happened to go 59-15-16 (what's that? like a near .750 points pct?) with a 2.54 GAA and .908 save pct. and 5 shutouts.

Of note and for minor context, that .908 save pct. would rank him (among goalies who played at least half the games): 5th in 1975 (Vachon (LA), Parent (PHI), Bouchard & Myre (ATF)); 4th in 1976 (Resch (NYI), Dryden (MTL), Bouchard (ATF)); 3rd in 1977 (Dryden (MTL), Resch (NYI)) if ranked for each individual season.

I wish NHL Vault was working better for me, I think it's time to do some video work...I'm not sure this is looking good numbers-wise for Parent...

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11-10-2012, 06:39 PM
  #128
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I wanted to add a bit more information on just how outstanding Johnny Bower's save percentage numbers were in the 1960s, because that would essentially be the case for him to be considered for a top four spot here.

I already gave his year-by-year rankings, but here's a simple list of overall save percentage from 1958-59 to 1967-68, both regular season and playoffs, among goalies with 150 or more regular season games played:

RankGoalieReg GPReg Sv%Reg SA/60PO GPPO Sv%
1Johnny Bower451.92232.270.924
2Glenn Hall595.91630.687.914
3Jacques Plante400.91431.236.915
4Gump Worsley428.91033.338.929
5Charlie Hodge269.91028.612.922
6Ed Giacomin168.90930.210.904
7Terry Sawchuk435.90430.156.908
8Bruce Gamble156.90434.80N/A
9Roger Crozier241.90229.622.897
10Ed Johnston262.89833.90N/A
11Don Simmons180.89730.33.889

There are very few goalies who have ever been that far ahead of the rest of the league over a decade span. This isn't really a cherry-picked period either, as it includes all of Bower's seasons with more than 20 games played with the exception of his one-off year as a starter in New York in 1953-54. It should be noted that this period was mostly a down time for Plante and Sawchuk, that there was a lot of goalie turnover and platooning around the league near the end of the O6 era, and that the Leafs were a strong defensive team during this period, but even taking all that into account Bower's performance was still pretty impressive.


Last edited by ContrarianGoaltender: 11-10-2012 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Correcting data and expanding table to include SA/60
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Old
11-10-2012, 06:47 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
I wanted to add a bit more information on just how outstanding Johnny Bower's save percentage numbers were in the 1960s, because that would essentially be the case for him to be considered for a top four spot here.

I already gave his year-by-year rankings, but here's a simple list of overall save percentage from 1958-59 to 1967-68, both regular season and playoffs, among goalies with 150 or more regular season games played:

RankGoalieReg GPReg Sv%PO GPPO Sv%
1Johnny Bower412.92358.928
2Glenn Hall525.91881.914
3Jacques Plante333.91225.918
4Gump Worsley361.91138.929
5Charlie Hodge267.91012.922
6Ed Giacomin168.90910.904
7Terry Sawchuk368.90656.908
8Bruce Gamble154.9040N/A
9Roger Crozier241.90222.897
10Ed Johnston262.8980N/A

There are very few goalies who have ever been that far ahead of the rest of the league over a decade span. This isn't really a cherry-picked period either, as it includes all of Bower's seasons with more than 20 games played with the exception of his one-off year as a starter in New York in 1953-54. It should be noted that this period was mostly a down time for Plante and Sawchuk, that there was a lot of goalie turnover and platooning around the league near the end of the O6 era, and that the Leafs were a strong defensive team during this period, but even taking all that into account Bower's performance was still pretty impressive.
Do you have easy access to how many shots per game Bower was credited with facing compared to the others?

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Old
11-10-2012, 07:12 PM
  #130
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Do you have easy access to how many shots per game Bower was credited with facing compared to the others?
Sure, I'll update the table shortly, as I have to make a correction to the table anyway since it looks like I posted the numbers from 1959-60 instead of 1958-59.

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11-10-2012, 07:26 PM
  #131
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Here's a point of trivia that doesn't really say much about either goalie, as neither was fully in his prime: There was talk about trading a young Charlie Gardiner for an aging Clint Benedict, but it fell through:

Quote:
Gardiner is only a youngster, but would like to get away from Chicago. Regarded as one of the most brilliant goaltenders in the league, he has been ridden unmercifully by Chicago fans, who have been unmindful of the fact that Chuck has a poor team in front of him. He always played far better in other cities than at home.
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Oct 16 ,1929

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11-10-2012, 07:43 PM
  #132
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Vezina and Benedict Part 1 (contemporary opinions)

Attempting to create a chronology of the two, based mostly on newspaper accounts from the Goalies before 1950 thread. This post focuses on accounts from their careers. I'll make another post on what people where saying about them in the decades after they retired

Early in his career, Benedict was already considered just as good as Percy Leseuer, the greatest goalie in Ottawa history to that point

Quote:
It is whispered around hockey circles that Benedict, the great Ottawa goalkeeper who some say is just as good as Percy Leseuer, is dissatisfied with his position in the capital...
Ottawa Citizen, Dec 2, 1913

1910s: Vezina was considered the best goalie in the NHA/NHL and likely the world (commentary was by Nalyd Psycho)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Calgary Daily Herald - Oct 30, 1914
There ???(I assume "is a") strong possibility that the National Hockey assiciation will this year be without the services of its most brilliant goalkeeper, Vezina of the Canadiens.
This paper was poorly scanned, but it was about a proposed deal that when Lalonde was playing out West, Vezina would be traded straight up for him to bring Lalonde back to Montreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Daily Mail - Dec 13, 1915
During the intermission he hustled George Vezina, recognized as the best goal-keeper in the NHA, into one of the Guards uniforms.
This was from an a game where NHA all-stars played an army team. For the third period, the coach of the army team (Vezina's coach on the Habs.) snuck Vezina into the army teams goal. Here is the scoring per period:
1st: 4-1 NHA
2nd: 5-1 NHA
3rd: 3-1 Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Daily Mail - Mar 17, 1916
George Vezina, the brilliant goal-keeper of the Canadiens, often said to be as good as two men, jumped into prominence when he joined the Habitants in 1911. Born in Chicoutimi twenty-eight years ago, Vezina started playing goals when a youngster. Manager George Kennedy witnessed a game in which he was playing in 1910, and immediately signed him up. Ever since he has played in front of the nets for the Flying Frenchmen, and today is one of the highest payed goal-tenders in the business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toronto World - Apr 5, 1916
Vezina, George: Goalkeeper, 28 years old, and from Chicoutimi. Joined the Canadiens in 1910 and made good on the jump. The most consistent goalkeeper in the N.H.A. and as clean a player as the game knows. His success is largely consequent upon the fact that he attends stricktly to business all the time, and never tries to pull any funny stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader - Feb 26, 1919
...the goaltenders, who have demonstrated that they can stop the hard shots a la George Vezina and Hugh Lehman.
From a Regina paper, infers that Lehman is the class of the West and Vezina of the East.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader - Mar 8, 1919
Georges Vezina, goalkeeper of the Montreal Canadiens, who is conceded to be the best net guardian in the game.
early 1920s: Opinion seems to be split between Benedict and Vezina:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star - Nov 25, 1921
Another development at Ottawa was the signing of Clint Benedict to occupy the nets for the Ottawa team during the forthcoming season Clint is generally regarded as the second best to George Vezina of the Flying Frenchmen.
Quote:
The Senators and Benedict continued their roll into the 1920-1921 season. For the second consecutive year, Benedict was lauded as the best netminder in the NHL, even though Ottawa had dropped to second in the standings.

He certainly impressed a young rookie who joined the Senators before the 1921-1922 season – Francis “King” Clancy.
“He was superb. A lot of people say that Georges Vezina was the greatest goaltender in those early days of hockey, but if you look at the records you’ll see that Clint Benedict…had a better average.”
-Great Goaltenders: Stars of Hockey’s Golden Age by Jim Barber (note that Clancy appears to be referred to GAA).

Benedict was heavily criticized in 1924 for his alcohol-influenced failings during the playoffs, and was sold to the expansion Montreal Maroons

Quote:
It wasn't until the Ottawa Senators were bounced from the first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs that team brass came down hard on their goalie.

Throughout the season, he had tested their patience and created dissension in the dressing room.

In January, they said, he showed up so drunk for an overnight train trip to Toronto, he had to be carried to his berth by a couple of teammates.

At least twice in February he turned up late for practice. Too "ill" to suit up for a game later in the month, he was replaced by a seldom-used backup goalie who lost an important game. The team doctor told management liquor was the cause. Fans were told he was fighting the flu.

On the day of the Senators' first playoff game in mid-March, management said, he had beer sent up to his hotel room, where he drank steadily all afternoon. Still woozy when he strapped on the pads that evening, he let in two soft goals in a 3-0 loss, one of them from centre ice.

Later in the series, he ignored the coach's instructions to go to his hotel room early and spent the night knocking back beers with friends.

With the team now eliminated for the season, management decided it was time to offer the goalie to other teams to see who or what they could get in return.

When the goalie got wind of the plan, he sued the team for salary he said he was owed. The team made a counter-claim for breach of contract.

And then all hell broke loose in the community.

The Ottawa Senators, it seems, have a history of rocky relationships with their goalies. That story took place 84 years ago, and the goalie was Clint Benedict, a future hall-of-famer considered one of the game's great innovators and the first pro goalie to wear a mask during a game.
Ottawa Citizen, June 23, 2008

At the time of Vezina's death in 1925, he was considered the best goalie of all-time

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader - Mar 17, 1925
Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; defence, Sprague Cleghorn and Hod Stuart (deceased); center, Frank Nighbor; right wing, Allan, Scotty Davidson; left wing, Tommy Phillips (deceased)
"This was from a MacLeans article about the best Canadian hockey players. The article I'm quoting was critical of the list for East coast bias. And there were many things on the three teams that raised my eyebrows. But it is still useful to see how some regarded Vezina while he was alive." - Nalyd Psycho

After being sold to the Maroons, Benedict resumed his excellent play and was a key part in the team winning the Stanley Cup over his old team in 1926

He shutout his old team Ottawa in the final to win the NHA championships and shut out Victoria of the WCHL twice to win the Stanley Cup in 1926:

Quote:
The trade rejuvenated Benedict. He played six years for Montreal, leading them to a Stanley Cup in their second season -- still a record for an expansion team -- by allowing only three goals in four playoff games against Victoria in the finals. In doing so, he became the first goalie to win the Cup for two teams.
The Ottawa Citizen, June 23, 2008

Quote:
When Rangers and Maroons players got together to celebrate the Rangers' Stanley Cup win after the game Saturday night, Clint Benedict, maroons goalie, and one of the heros of the series, and Frank Boucher, whose goals brought the championship to the Rangers camp, went into a prolonged fanning bee at one end of the banquet hall.... Frankie put Benedict in an embarrassing position by recalling the times when, as a young player, he was want to listen to the them-Ottawa goalkeeper, from whom Frankie picked up many useful tricks.
Montreal Gazette, April 18, 1928

After Benedict's NHL career ended in 1930, he and Georges Vezina were considered the "kings of the net" and some did prefer Benedict

This article summarizes Benedict's career after it was announced he was sent down to the IHL to end his NHL career:

Quote:
Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years
...
Tall, and apparently gawky and awkward, with a shambling style of skating, Benedict possessed an eagle eye and the quickness of a cat. In the days when goalers were not allowed to drop to the ice to stop shots, Benedict was dubbed "Tumbling Clint," because he insisted on going to his knees to stop shots, and the records of those distant days indicate that he was penalized more than once for thus breaking the playing rules. Later, when it became permissible for a goaler to drop to any position he wished to stop a shot, Benedict became almost unbeatable. He and the late Georges Vezina were the admitted kings of the nets.
...
Known as one of the game's great "money players," Benedict has figured in half a score of play-off series.
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Nov 13, 1930

Quote:
Clint Benedict, one of the greatest goaltenders the game has ever produced... (will return to the NHL as a ref)

The return of Benedict to the league that he helped to make great will be welcomed all over the circuit
Ottawa Citizen, Dec 5, 1931


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-10-2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old
11-10-2012, 07:49 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
I wanted to add a bit more information on just how outstanding Johnny Bower's save percentage numbers were in the 1960s, because that would essentially be the case for him to be considered for a top four spot here.

I already gave his year-by-year rankings, but here's a simple list of overall save percentage from 1958-59 to 1967-68, both regular season and playoffs, among goalies with 150 or more regular season games played:

RankGoalieReg GPReg Sv%Reg SA/60PO GPPO Sv%
1Johnny Bower451.92232.270.924
2Glenn Hall595.91630.687.914
3Jacques Plante400.91431.236.915
4Gump Worsley428.91033.338.929
5Charlie Hodge269.91028.612.922
6Ed Giacomin168.90930.210.904
7Terry Sawchuk435.90430.156.908
8Bruce Gamble156.90434.80N/A
9Roger Crozier241.90229.622.897
10Ed Johnston262.89833.90N/A
11Don Simmons180.89730.33.889

There are very few goalies who have ever been that far ahead of the rest of the league over a decade span. This isn't really a cherry-picked period either, as it includes all of Bower's seasons with more than 20 games played with the exception of his one-off year as a starter in New York in 1953-54. It should be noted that this period was mostly a down time for Plante and Sawchuk, that there was a lot of goalie turnover and platooning around the league near the end of the O6 era, and that the Leafs were a strong defensive team during this period, but even taking all that into account Bower's performance was still pretty impressive.
Thanks for adding the shots. And I'm sorry, but something doesn't compute. Johnny Bower played for the most defensive team of the era - the Toronto Maple Leafs, coached by Punch Imlach, featuring Tim Horton, Carl Brewer, Allan Stanley, and Bob Baun on D with Dave Keon and Red Kelly at C, and we're supposed to believe they allowed more shots than most teams?

Likewise, Glenn Hall's Blackhawks were apparently known as a run-and-gun team, and we're supposed to believe they allowed fewer shots?

It doesn't add up. There's a reason I don't really trust unofficial save percentages, there is no way to know the quality of the shot recording at the time.

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11-10-2012, 08:01 PM
  #134
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Apparently the 1925 article in MacLean's magazine selecting Georges Vezina the best goalie of all time up to that point was referring to All-Star teams put together by some serious heavyweights.

From the hockey history site on yahoo:

Quote:
I believe it has been mentioned before that Charlie H. Good compiled
a list in 1925 of the best all-time positional players. Good was the
respected Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper
folded in 1919. Maclean's Magazine asked Good to put a best-of list
together for the March 15th edition. Good, in turn, called upon his
peers in the sports writing fraternity to submit their picks. From
those lists three all-star teams were compile.

1st Team

Goal : Georges Vezina
Defense : Sprague Cleghorn
Defense : Hod Stuart
Centre : Frank Nighbor
Right Wing : Allan "Scotty" Davidson
Left Wing : Tom Phillips


2nd Team

Goal : Percy Lesueur
Defense : Eddie Gerard
Defense : George Boucher
Centre : Russell Bowie
Right Wing : "Babe" Dye
Left Wing : Harry Watson


3rd Team

Goal : Clint Benedict / Hugh Lehman
Defense : Joe Simpson
Defense : Lester Patrick
Centre : Newsy Lalonde
Right Wing : George Richardson
Left Wing : Cyclone Taylor


The participants : Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.
F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.
G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young,
Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery,
Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.
Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group.../message/20402

Note that Benedict's revival with the Maroons would not be included in these rankings as it happened afterwards.

Note that the article came out on March 19, 1925. Vezina would not fall ill with TB until the beginning of the following NHL season and did not die until March 27, 1926. So this All-Time All Star team put together by the experts was NOT affected by his death.

Vezina will be in my top 4 this round, likely second. Edit: Although, honestly after seeing who was involved in putting together the 1925 All-Time All Star Team, I'm actually considering whether to rank Vezina over Brimsek or not.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-10-2012 at 08:14 PM.
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Old
11-10-2012, 08:08 PM
  #135
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Likewise, Glenn Hall's Blackhawks were apparently known as a run-and-gun team, and we're supposed to believe they allowed fewer shots?
Nope, not a run & gun team. Great offense, yes, but also almost always in the running for best GAA.

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11-10-2012, 08:12 PM
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Nope, not a run & gun team. Great offense, yes, but also almost always in the running for best GAA.
Yes, but wasn't a big part of the case for Glenn Hall in Vote 1 that he was the biggest reason their GAAs remained low?

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11-10-2012, 08:20 PM
  #137
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SOGs

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for adding the shots. And I'm sorry, but something doesn't compute. Johnny Bower played for the most defensive team of the era - the Toronto Maple Leafs, coached by Punch Imlach, featuring Tim Horton, Carl Brewer, Allan Stanley, and Bob Baun on D with Dave Keon and Red Kelly at C, and we're supposed to believe they allowed more shots than most teams?

Likewise, Glenn Hall's Blackhawks were apparently known as a run-and-gun team, and we're supposed to believe they allowed fewer shots?

It doesn't add up. There's a reason I don't really trust unofficial save percentages, there is no way to know the quality of the shot recording at the time.
Good catch. Random 10 game strings for the seasons in question produced 28.4 to 30.7 SOGs allowed by the Leafs.

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11-10-2012, 08:34 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for adding the shots. And I'm sorry, but something doesn't compute. Johnny Bower played for the most defensive team of the era - the Toronto Maple Leafs, coached by Punch Imlach, featuring Tim Horton, Carl Brewer, Allan Stanley, and Bob Baun on D with Dave Keon and Red Kelly at C, and we're supposed to believe they allowed more shots than most teams?
When the Leafs had all those guys, they generally didn't allow more shots than most teams. When they were missing a few of them and most of the rest were getting old, then Toronto did allow more shots against than average.

1959: Bower 31.7, League 30.37 (Horton 29, Brewer 20, Stanley 32, Baun 22)
1960: Bower 33.0, League 31.50 (Horton 30, Brewer 21, Stanley 33, Baun 23, Kelly 32)
1961: Bower 32.0, League 32.20 (Horton 31, Brewer 22, Stanley 34, Baun 24, Kelly 33, Keon 20)
1962: Bower 31.1, League 31.72 (Horton 32, Brewer 23, Stanley 35, Baun 25, Kelly 34, Keon 21)
1963: Bower 29.7, League 31.97 (Horton 33, Brewer 24, Stanley 36, Baun 26, Kelly 35, Keon 22)
1964: Bower 31.5, League 32.89 (Horton 34, Brewer 25, Stanley 37, Baun 27, Kelly 36, Keon 23)
1965: Bower 31.4, League 30.37 (Horton 35, Brewer 26, Stanley 38, Baun 28, Kelly 37, Keon 24)
1966: Bower 33.6, League 31.39 (Horton 36, Stanley 39, Baun 29, Kelly 38, Keon 25)
1967: Bower 35.0, League 31.79 (Horton 37, Stanley 40, Baun 30, Kelly 39, Keon 26)
1968: Bower 34.3, League 30.39 (Horton 38, Stanley 41, Keon 27)

To reiterate, I think Bower was definitely helped by his teammates defensively, and maybe it's possible that his stats overstate his performance in other ways (as I posted before, home/road save percentage splits for that period are on my to-do list). But I don't think the shots against numbers can be dismissed simply by pointing to the Leafs' roster in those seasons.

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11-10-2012, 08:52 PM
  #139
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I don't understand how Brimsek, Durnan and Broda maybe being the best of a depression and war weakened era gets them praised for being competitive against tough competition. While Benedict and Vezina get punished for not being clearly better than each other while playing in the era that made hockey Canada's sport. If Benedict is punished for not being the clear best of his era, should the same not handicap Brimsek, Durnan and Broda? In the end, whether you think the competition strengthens the players case or weaken it, shouldn't the Benedict, Vezina, Lehman, Holmes, Leseur generation be a peer of the Brimsek, Broda, Durnan, Rayner generation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Benedict had an 18 year professional career, but it was not unheard of for goalies of that generation to play a very long time. Vezina had a 15 year professional career and Hugh Lehman played for 20 years.

Broda played for 15 years, among the best during his era.

I really don't see longevity being a big difference here.
Are you punishing Benedict for having peers with longevity? Shouldn't they all be praised? We wouldn't punish Sawchuk, Hall and Plante. Sometime generations have great longevity because they had great careers. In less there is a specific answer for why careers extend, goaltender is a position where greatness tends to last, and only greatness.

Longevity is a reason why both Benedict and Vezina should be voted through now, and why Lehman should be eligible for votes in the next round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

Interesting observation. Here are Broda's GAAs

1936-37 NHL 2.30 (7)
1937-38 NHL 2.56 (5)
1938-39 NHL 2.15 (3)
1939-40 NHL 2.23 (4)
1940-41 NHL 2.00 (1)
1941-42 NHL 2.76 (2)
1942-43 NHL 3.18 (2)
1946-47 NHL 2.87 (2)
1947-48 NHL 2.38 (1)
1948-49 NHL 2.68 (3)
1949-50 NHL 2.48 (3)

1950-51 NHL 2.23 (3)

I bolded the years when Hap Day was coach. Seems that Hap Day's clutch-and-grab defensive system may have helped Broda's numbers. Leafs won Cups in 1942, 1945 (with Frank McCool), 1947, 1948, and 1949 with Hap Day coaching. They did win a Cup in 1951 after Day retired, however - an aging Broda ended up playing the majority of playoff games after Al Rollins' injury in 1951 and seems to have been very good.
I would argue that a) One year after Day left, minimal turnover, they still played Day's game. b) No one denies Broda was a big game player. (But then again, so was Benedict.) Playing less in the regular season likely made it easier to excel in the post season.

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11-10-2012, 09:22 PM
  #140
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I went into this round thinking that Brimsek was the clearcut best of his generation and I'm still more or less there. That said, the fact that not a single one of Brimsek/Broda/Durnan/Rayner lasted as an NHL starter past the age of 35 and that Rayner was on his way out at the age of 32 in 1952 probably does point to it to it being a weaker generation than the one that came afterwards.

But one thing - when Vezina, Benedict, and Lehman played, there were quite a few more teams than 6, so it was easier to stick around than in the Original 6 era.

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11-10-2012, 09:32 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
When the Leafs had all those guys, they generally didn't allow more shots than most teams. When they were missing a few of them and most of the rest were getting old, then Toronto did allow more shots against than average.

1959: Bower 31.7, League 30.37 (Horton 29, Brewer 20, Stanley 32, Baun 22)
1960: Bower 33.0, League 31.50 (Horton 30, Brewer 21, Stanley 33, Baun 23, Kelly 32)
1961: Bower 32.0, League 32.20 (Horton 31, Brewer 22, Stanley 34, Baun 24, Kelly 33, Keon 20)
1962: Bower 31.1, League 31.72 (Horton 32, Brewer 23, Stanley 35, Baun 25, Kelly 34, Keon 21)
1963: Bower 29.7, League 31.97 (Horton 33, Brewer 24, Stanley 36, Baun 26, Kelly 35, Keon 22)
1964: Bower 31.5, League 32.89 (Horton 34, Brewer 25, Stanley 37, Baun 27, Kelly 36, Keon 23)
1965: Bower 31.4, League 30.37 (Horton 35, Brewer 26, Stanley 38, Baun 28, Kelly 37, Keon 24)
1966: Bower 33.6, League 31.39 (Horton 36, Stanley 39, Baun 29, Kelly 38, Keon 25)
1967: Bower 35.0, League 31.79 (Horton 37, Stanley 40, Baun 30, Kelly 39, Keon 26)
1968: Bower 34.3, League 30.39 (Horton 38, Stanley 41, Keon 27)

To reiterate, I think Bower was definitely helped by his teammates defensively, and maybe it's possible that his stats overstate his performance in other ways (as I posted before, home/road save percentage splits for that period are on my to-do list). But I don't think the shots against numbers can be dismissed simply by pointing to the Leafs' roster in those seasons.
Anecdotally, there is a legit case that the 60s Leafs dynasty were the best defensive team of all-time and I just don't see that expressed in the officially recorded shot totals. They definitely played very defensively. Frank Mahovlich is considered the 3rd best NHL LW of all time around here, largely because his personal stats were hurt by playing in Punch Imlach's defensive system. What's the point of a system so defensive if it wasn't helping the goaltender by limiting shots?

I really wish we have home/road splits.

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11-10-2012, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I went into this round thinking that Brimsek was the clearcut best of his generation and I'm still more or less there. That said, the fact that not a single one of Brimsek/Broda/Durnan/Rayner lasted as an NHL starter past the age of 35 and that Rayner was on his way out at the age of 32 in 1952 probably does point to it to it being a weaker generation than the one that came afterwards.

But one thing - when Vezina, Benedict, and Lehman played, there were quite a few more teams than 6, so it was easier to stick around than in the Original 6 era.
True. I feel bad punishing the Brimsek generation for longevity as the next generation was truly great. That said, when they left the league, the starting goalies were Sawchuk, Lumley, McNeil, Rollins, Henry and Rayner. But weaker than Benedict at 35 being effective against: Connell, Roach, Hainsworth, Gardiner, Holmes (at 39), Worters, Chabot, Winkler and Miller. (Admittedly, Miller is clearly the weakest goalie listed.)

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11-10-2012, 10:59 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Anecdotally, there is a legit case that the 60s Leafs dynasty were the best defensive team of all-time and I just don't see that expressed in the officially recorded shot totals. They definitely played very defensively. Frank Mahovlich is considered the 3rd best NHL LW of all time around here, largely because his personal stats were hurt by playing in Punch Imlach's defensive system. What's the point of a system so defensive if it wasn't helping the goaltender by limiting shots?

I really wish we have home/road splits.
I can't speak for the time. But not all defensive systems are designed to limit shots - especially presently. I'm more inclined to believe that a defensive system in this time and place would be designed to "prevent" offense from starting, thus limiting shot totals, but I can't be sure.

Bolded: HSP has this information, does it not?

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11-10-2012, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
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I can't speak for the time. But not all defensive systems are designed to limit shots - especially presently. I'm more inclined to believe that a defensive system in this time and place would be designed to "prevent" offense from starting, thus limiting shot totals, but I can't be sure.

Bolded: HSP has this information, does it not?
This is very true, but if Toronto had a system that limited quality shots without limiting overall shots, then save % wouldn't have been an accurate measure of their goalie's ability anyway, right?

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11-10-2012, 11:15 PM
  #145
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This is very true, but if Toronto had a system that limited quality shots without limiting overall shots, then save % wouldn't have been an accurate measure of their goalie's ability anyway, right?
Correct.

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11-11-2012, 04:52 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
When the Leafs had all those guys, they generally didn't allow more shots than most teams. When they were missing a few of them and most of the rest were getting old, then Toronto did allow more shots against than average.

1959: Bower 31.7, League 30.37 (Horton 29, Brewer 20, Stanley 32, Baun 22)
1960: Bower 33.0, League 31.50 (Horton 30, Brewer 21, Stanley 33, Baun 23, Kelly 32)
1961: Bower 32.0, League 32.20 (Horton 31, Brewer 22, Stanley 34, Baun 24, Kelly 33, Keon 20)
1962: Bower 31.1, League 31.72 (Horton 32, Brewer 23, Stanley 35, Baun 25, Kelly 34, Keon 21)
1963: Bower 29.7, League 31.97 (Horton 33, Brewer 24, Stanley 36, Baun 26, Kelly 35, Keon 22)
1964: Bower 31.5, League 32.89 (Horton 34, Brewer 25, Stanley 37, Baun 27, Kelly 36, Keon 23)
1965: Bower 31.4, League 30.37 (Horton 35, Brewer 26, Stanley 38, Baun 28, Kelly 37, Keon 24)
1966: Bower 33.6, League 31.39 (Horton 36, Stanley 39, Baun 29, Kelly 38, Keon 25)
1967: Bower 35.0, League 31.79 (Horton 37, Stanley 40, Baun 30, Kelly 39, Keon 26)
1968: Bower 34.3, League 30.39 (Horton 38, Stanley 41, Keon 27)

To reiterate, I think Bower was definitely helped by his teammates defensively, and maybe it's possible that his stats overstate his performance in other ways (as I posted before, home/road save percentage splits for that period are on my to-do list). But I don't think the shots against numbers can be dismissed simply by pointing to the Leafs' roster in those seasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Anecdotally, there is a legit case that the 60s Leafs dynasty were the best defensive team of all-time and I just don't see that expressed in the officially recorded shot totals. They definitely played very defensively. Frank Mahovlich is considered the 3rd best NHL LW of all time around here, largely because his personal stats were hurt by playing in Punch Imlach's defensive system. What's the point of a system so defensive if it wasn't helping the goaltender by limiting shots?

I really wish we have home/road splits.
in ATD, i calculated bower's SA on road and at home for a few seasons. i was planning to calculate all of them, but i did not want to take the time.

TML tended to have a much better record at home than on road, and allowed a lot more SA on road.

TML shots against per game
'59 at home: 28.97
'59 on road: 33.83

'60 at home: 29.48
'60 on road: 35.89

'61 at home: 29.22
'61 on road: 34.80

'62 at home: 29.06
'62 on road: 33.62

'63 at home: 27.51
'63 on road: 29.31

TML outshot opponents at home, but were outshot on road (sometimes by fairly large margins) in all of those seasons except '63. '63 was the only season TML had the best record, but their record was actually better in '61 and '62 than in '63.

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11-11-2012, 05:59 AM
  #147
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Johnny Bower SOGs

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
in ATD, i calculated bower's SA on road and at home for a few seasons. i was planning to calculate all of them, but i did not want to take the time.

TML tended to have a much better record at home than on road, and allowed a lot more SA on road.

TML shots against per game
'59 at home: 28.97
'59 on road: 33.83

'60 at home: 29.48
'60 on road: 35.89

'61 at home: 29.22
'61 on road: 34.80

'62 at home: 29.06
'62 on road: 33.62

'63 at home: 27.51
'63 on road: 29.31

TML outshot opponents at home, but were outshot on road (sometimes by fairly large margins) in all of those seasons except '63. '63 was the only season TML had the best record, but their record was actually better in '61 and '62 than in '63.
Thru 1963-64 the Leafs were excellent on the PK

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/TOR/1964.html

H/R SOG splits. O6 era Montreal and Toronto were affected by the Sunday night road game..

Basic NHL schedule tended to be W/TH, SA/SU Leafs tended to be at home W and always SA, While the Canadiens tended to be at home TH and almost all SA. So if a team was playing its third game in four nights or fourth in five nights on the road Sunday against a fresh team the SOGs against could be very high.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?H19590093

Dec 20, 1959, Toronto had played in Montreal on the 17th, home to Detroit on the 19th, in Chicago on the 20th, getting smoked in th second period by the Hawks who had not played since the 17th in Detroit.

1964-65 season thru 1966-67 when the Leafs featured the Bower/Sawchuk tandem they tended to split the two games in two nights.

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11-11-2012, 07:47 AM
  #148
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A H/R split of Gardiner's career.

YearGPMINWLTGAGAASOGPMINWLTGAGAASO
27-28 H2012101181592.931------- 
27-28 R2012105141552.732------- 
28-29 H2213783136361.573------- 
28-29 R2213804162492.132------- 
29-30 H2213801291532.30216001011.000
29-30 R221370994582.541111200121.070
30-31 H2213501381391.735428431040.85 
30-31 R2213701192391.7175354221101.691
31-32 H2415401356391.52316010000.001
31-32 R2414495145532.19116001066.000
32-33 H2414901275431.734------- 
32-33 R2415134137582.301------- 
33-34 H2415301347291.147428121181.711
33-34 R2415207134542.133426140040.921
Total H15898786764272981.812510685631131.143
Total R15898124588253662.241711787632221.682

Chicago played their last 10 home games of the 1928-29 season in Fort Erie, Detroit and Windsor, as their lease at the Coliseum expired before the new Chicago Stadium was built.

Chicago forfeited a game against Boston on March 14, 1933 after a disputed OT goal. OT ended after 3 minutes rather than the normal 10 minutes. LINK

Seasonal record vs playoff opponents:
YearTeamH WH LH TH GFH GAR WR LR TR GFR GA
1929-30Mtl C0203501145
1930-31TOR02035020311
1930-31NYR1114430092
1930-31Mtl C1105401112
1931-32TOR*2019112047
1933-34Mtl C30010302169
1933-34Mtl M20195021712
1933-34DET1115403049

* Cude's record
YearTeamH WH LH TH GFH GAR WR LR TR GFR GA
1931-32TOR*-----00039
Gardiner was injured with Chicago behind 0-2 late in the first period, March 19, 1932.


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11-11-2012, 08:32 AM
  #149
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Yes, but wasn't a big part of the case for Glenn Hall in Vote 1 that he was the biggest reason their GAAs remained low?
I watched Hall's Blackhawks more closely than any poster on this forum and I am telling you that they were not a run and gun team(does that term even fit with hockey, basketball term I believe). Certainly Hall was a big part of their low GA and deserves his high ranking but he wasn't the only reason for their low GA.

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11-11-2012, 09:37 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Anecdotally, there is a legit case that the 60s Leafs dynasty were the best defensive team of all-time and I just don't see that expressed in the officially recorded shot totals. They definitely played very defensively. Frank Mahovlich is considered the 3rd best NHL LW of all time around here, largely because his personal stats were hurt by playing in Punch Imlach's defensive system. What's the point of a system so defensive if it wasn't helping the goaltender by limiting shots?

I really wish we have home/road splits.
In the 2010-11 season Tim Thomas won the Vezina with the best GAA and SP on a team that was considered defensively oriented. Claude Julien is without question a defense first coach. Boston gave up 32.7 shots per game. Only Carolina gave up more.

From what I recall, Bower had a bad catching hand. He stopped pucks with it but rarely caught them. Perhaps rebound control ( much like Tim Thomas) played into the higher shot totals. Or perhaps the defensive systems of both teams allowed the shots from the perimiters and cleaned up the dangerous slot area.

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