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Sergei Fedorov

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Old
11-10-2012, 11:54 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Nice straw man bit you can't take the facts and are Now attackig me like you do everoyone in support of Feds on this thread. If you want to talk hockey, talk hockey.

Do you know that individual awards are more Prestigious than teams medals? Trust me you want the girl, you don't want a second cousin you know what I'm saying? Lol
My straw man is watching your goalposts go 'round and 'round on the carousel. What facts? That over a tiny amount of games Fedorov played marginally better than Jagr, Sakic, and Forsberg? And these handful games should offset their large sample of regular season superiority?

Of course individual trophies are worth more than team award, too bad Fedorov has the fewest.

EDIT: Gretzky had one shot at an Olympic Gold, Fedorov had 4.

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11-10-2012, 11:59 AM
  #277
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I think you chose to spend this Saturday to contradicting yourself here Lol you seem pretty jealous of Feds have a nice day Bud

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11-10-2012, 12:00 PM
  #278
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I personally would put him in top 50 NHL players of alltime

Amazing defense to go with his offensive talent

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11-10-2012, 01:39 PM
  #279
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In terms of what he has brought the game and his outstanding playoff career I would put Fedorov in the top 25 players all time (any player including non-NHLers) personally with Gretzky at #1.

In terms of the most complete players ever I would put him at the very top. Plus those cool White Nike Skates, long hair and Anna by my side lol lucky guy in his prime

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11-10-2012, 02:27 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
I personally would put him in top 50 NHL players of alltime

Amazing defense to go with his offensive talent
This...How many current day snipers could turn around and play the point at the end of their career.

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11-10-2012, 02:33 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Lots of people are trying to use Feds NHL stats to devalue him, using their own logic, but in Best on Best play International competitions, Feds PPG rate is '''Higher than Forsberg, Jagr and Joe Sakic''', but many people here will disregard it because it can't be refuted.
I don't want to devalue his ability, he was a great player. Let's be reality here... Fedorov wasn't going to "dominate the scoring lists" as some claim. Maybe he wins the Ross over Gretzky in '94, but I already give him similar credit for winning Hart/Pearson and leading in ES points that season. After that, he has a few other very good seasons, a few great playoffs and was very good in international play.

If Fedorov was so good in international play, why did he not have much best on best success, despite playing on one of the very best teams? Do you really think, for instance, that if you put Fedorov on the Czech teams instead of Jagr, that they would have been better and had more success? I don't, I think they would have been worse and had less success, but that's JMHO.

That's not to say Fedorov isn't underrated by many and that his longevity and defensive ability shouldn't help his case. In fact, I think it does... it puts him above Kariya, makes it an interesting argument vs. players like Forsberg, Selanne, Lindros, etc.

It just seems absurd to use a handful of international games, played in far off lands every few years, with large disparities in the quality of teams and the equality of schedules, to use as a primary determinant of the quality of players who played most/all of their careers in the NHL. There are similar problems with NHL playoffs, but there's usually a much more substantial body of work to at least give a good indication of how good the player was. Fedorov's weakness may have been that he wasn't really a game-breaking, game-changing force for but a few short years (maybe ~5 seasons at most).

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11-10-2012, 03:22 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
I agree it's the best, but it's still only 26 games.
People use smaller sample sizes to argue who "deserved" the Conn Smythe in any given playoff year, so... not something you can totally discount/discredit given the calibre of the competition?

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Originally Posted by molsonmuscle360 View Post
This...How many current day snipers could turn around and play the point at the end of their career.
I think Jordan Staal or Kesler would have a good chance at proving themselves one of the best 6 defenseman a team could assemble, with a little practise. Among guys that appear near the top of the scoring tables, though? Maybe Spezza? I'd have to say that someone like Henrik Sedin would have the skills, vision, and hockey I.Q. to make it work, but I'd have more concerns about his ability to deal with the physical demands and the backwards skating, even more than someone like Spezza (who isn't known for his physicality by any stretch). Maybe Getzlaf, Toews? I think Datsyuk could emulate Lidstrom's style at this point, which doesn't require a lot of physicality to remain effective. I dunno, I'd try a few, but my expectations are pretty low for all of them. Some of these guys seem potentially really good skill-wise/on paper until you actually see them skate backwards a few times, lol. None of these names are quite Fedorov calibre though, are they.


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11-10-2012, 08:11 PM
  #283
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People forget the guy was put on defense for many games of the season or post season and many times during a game.

Scotty Bowman loved him on defense and he said that he would have kept him there more often but Sergei preferred forward and felt he was more comfortable at his natural position,

Simply playing a more defensive role or a defensive position lol would have his offensive stats drop.

And then we manage to all forget his post season stats. Impressive stats.

A top 50 offensive player, a top 50 defensive player. Easy
Thats pretty much an elite overall player to me. I think he can be put into the top 20 and maybe better.

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11-10-2012, 08:15 PM
  #284
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Is Maurice Richard overrated?

THN ranks him at #5
Many would put him in the top 10 easily, those who have heard of him lol.

But i looked at his career. Though im still impressed with his hockey traits and leadership and his longetivity... is he really a top 5?

He only won 1 Hart trophy, maybe deserved 2 at best...
He was chosen to plenty of All star teams but when i looked back at those years... there was at least 3x where I dk if he was the leagues best RW and yet he was still given the honor. Maurice put up 50 in 50, vastly impressive but I think there were better players.

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11-10-2012, 08:52 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
A top 50 offensive player, a top 50 defensive player. Easy
Thats pretty much an elite overall player to me. I think he can be put into the top 20 and maybe better.
The top 50 defensive players of all time are all goalies and defensemen.

A top-50 offensive player doesn't fail to crack the top-25 in scoring through 70% of the seasons in his career.

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11-10-2012, 09:45 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Fedorov generally played on stronger teams with better linemates than Jagr at least.

How about the 2010 WCs when Czechs beat Russia in gold medal game? The only NHLers who played for Czechs were Jagr, Vokoun and Voracek. The Russians had Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Semin, Fedorov, Afinogenov, Gonchar, Frolov, etc.

I don't remember Russia being much of a factor in the best on best WC in 2005, when Jagr led the Czechs to gold. Russia again had a strong roster: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Kovalev, Fedorov, Kozlov, Afinogenov, Semin, Markov, Yashin, etc.

What has been Russia's biggest international achievement with Fedorov? Beating some undermanned team at the WCs? Do you really think Czech or Sweden would have rather had Fedorov than Jagr/Forsberg in most tournaments?
You are really going to use linemates as an argument? Forsberg played on stronger teams then Fedorov so he really has no excuse (just look at the success of the Swedish NT during that period of time) and jagr...I'd never think a Jagr fan would EVER use the linemates argument, since the biggest argument against him is that he had HOF centers winning his awards for him half his career.

It is Fedorov that had the weakest regular linemates of the three throughout his prime years in his NHL career, the fact that he outperformed both Jagr and Forsberg at the NT level goes to show how much better he would have done if he played on Detroit's first line (or on a different team) in his prime.

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11-10-2012, 11:01 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
You are really going to use linemates as an argument? Forsberg played on stronger teams then Fedorov so he really has no excuse (just look at the success of the Swedish NT during that period of time) and jagr...I'd never think a Jagr fan would EVER use the linemates argument, since the biggest argument against him is that he had HOF centers winning his awards for him half his career.

It is Fedorov that had the weakest regular linemates of the three throughout his prime years in his NHL career, the fact that he outperformed both Jagr and Forsberg at the NT level goes to show how much better he would have done if he played on Detroit's first line (or on a different team) in his prime.
What? Come again?

Half his career?

What Hall of Fame center played on Jagr's team in 1998-99 when he won the Art Ross by 20 Pts, won the Hart and the Pearson? What HOF center was on Jagr's team in 1999-00 when he won the Art Ross (despite missing 19 games), finished 2nd in the Hart voting (lost by 1 Pt) and captured another Pearson? What HOF center did Jagr have in 2005-06 when he scored 123 Pts, finished second in the Hart, Art Ross and Richard race and won his third Pearson?

Every single great player that has won an Art Ross (I'm talking about the true greats and not one-year wonders like Iginla and such) has had great linemates and sometimes even HOF linemates.

Lemieux had Jagr and Francis for literally 4 of his 6 Art Ross trophies. Gretzky had Coffey and Kurri. Esposito had Orr and vice versa.

You can't punish Jagr for that. The fact of the matter is that Jagr still won 5 Art Ross trophies while Fedorov never won any.

Fedorov was a Hart finalist once, Forsberg once while Jagr was 6 times.

Big difference there.

Jagr is far closer to the top 10 and to Lemieux and Gretzky than Fedorov and Forsberg will ever be.

Think about this, Lemieux won 4 of his 6 Art Ross trophies with Jagr on his team.

On the flip side, Jagr won 4 of his 5 Art Ross trophies with Lemieux either sitting the season out or retiring. Jagr was just as capable of dominating on his own as much as he was while playing on Lemieux' team.

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11-11-2012, 01:15 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
What? Come again?

Half his career?

What Hall of Fame center played on Jagr's team in 1998-99 when he won the Art Ross by 20 Pts, won the Hart and the Pearson? What HOF center was on Jagr's team in 1999-00 when he won the Art Ross (despite missing 19 games), finished 2nd in the Hart voting (lost by 1 Pt) and captured another Pearson?
In those two seasons, we saw a lot of Straka/Lang/Kovalev as a dominant second line taking heat off of Jagr. Jagr himself didn't have any elite linemates, but he wasn't facing nearly the amount of tough opposition that he saw in other years.

Quote:
What HOF center did Jagr have in 2005-06 when he scored 123 Pts, finished second in the Hart, Art Ross and Richard race and won his third Pearson?
Michael Nylander and Martin Straka weren't exactly chopped liver.

Quote:
Every single great player that has won an Art Ross (I'm talking about the true greats and not one-year wonders like Iginla and such) has had great linemates and sometimes even HOF linemates.

Lemieux had Jagr and Francis for literally 4 of his 6 Art Ross trophies. Gretzky had Coffey and Kurri. Esposito had Orr and vice versa.
Lemieux and Jagr didn't play on a line together, except for periods in Lemieux's last couple fractured seasons. Nor did Lemieux and Francis. Francis and Jagr were joined at the hip, though. The closest Lemieux/Jagr came to being regular linemates in a given season was the PP unit in 1995-96.

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You can't punish Jagr for that. The fact of the matter is that Jagr still won 5 Art Ross trophies while Fedorov never won any.
And how many would Fedorov have won if he had been focusing ONLY ON OFFENSE like Jagr? He played a defense-first style through the 90s, and displayed that he certainly had the talent to challenge for the scoring title.

Quote:
Fedorov was a Hart finalist once, Forsberg once while Jagr was 6 times.

Big difference there.
Part of that is the fact that Fedorov and Forsberg played on powerhouse teams, so in a year they might have been a finalist on a weak team, they would lose Hart votes to teammates. Of course, the reliability of Hart voting is always questionable; after all, Kris Draper finished 28th in Hart voting (17th among forwards, 3rd among Detroit players) in 2004, while Jagr (and Lidstrom, oddly) received no votes.

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Jagr is far closer to the top 10 and to Lemieux and Gretzky than Fedorov and Forsberg will ever be.
No one is debating otherwise with any seriousness. But realistically, Jagr is closer to Fedorov/Forsberg than he is to Lemieux/Gretzky. Not offensively, certainly, but overall.


Last edited by pdd: 11-11-2012 at 02:48 AM.
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11-11-2012, 01:56 AM
  #289
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Two of the most inane things I've read on HF lately:

1) Jordan Staal is even remotely arguably better than Datsyuk

2) A player's total swings by 31 depending which conference he's in

Somehow both of these things came on the same page of the same thread... a truly remarkable density of bad ideas.

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11-11-2012, 02:35 AM
  #290
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Fedorov is so overrated it's unbelievable.

He was a hell of a player, but anyone who remembers watching him year after year will remember that more years than not, he left you wanting more. He had those great playoff runs, but even at times in those runs you thought he had more to give. He hit it on all cylinders in 93-94. But we live in the youtube age and people who are too young to have seen him during his prime base assessments off of highlights. Same thing happens with Bure.

Both great players, but not deserving of some of the hyperbolic statements about them.

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11-11-2012, 02:54 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Two of the most inane things I've read on HF lately:

1) Jordan Staal is even remotely arguably better than Datsyuk

2) A player's total swings by 31 depending which conference he's in

Somehow both of these things came on the same page of the same thread... a truly remarkable density of bad ideas.
I see you missed "Peter Forsberg is a top ten player of all-time."

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Originally Posted by MarkusNaslund19 View Post
Fedorov is so overrated it's unbelievable.

He was a hell of a player, but anyone who remembers watching him year after year will remember that more years than not, he left you wanting more. He had those great playoff runs, but even at times in those runs you thought he had more to give. He hit it on all cylinders in 93-94. But we live in the youtube age and people who are too young to have seen him during his prime base assessments off of highlights. Same thing happens with Bure.

Both great players, but not deserving of some of the hyperbolic statements about them.
Fedorov was somewhere between sixth and ninth on a lit of "best players" from his era. Jagr, Sakic, Lindros, and Forsberg are the only Fedorov-era forwards who match up; then you have Hasek and Brodeur in net, and Lidstrom and Pronger on defense. Offensive stats don't do him justice.

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11-11-2012, 03:02 AM
  #292
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I see you missed "Peter Forsberg is a top ten player of all-time."
Yep, that deserves a spot on the list too.

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11-11-2012, 07:59 AM
  #293
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The fact of the matter is that Jagr still won 5 Art Ross trophies while Fedorov never won any.
And how many would Fedorov have won if he had been focusing ONLY ON OFFENSE like Jagr? He played a defense-first style through the 90s, and displayed that he certainly had the talent to challenge for the scoring title.
Still none.
Fedorov was only coming close to competing for scoring titles in seasons in which he was challenging for (or won) the Selke (a handful of seasons in the mid-90's).

He just wasn't doing a good job of competing for either one (scoring titles or Selkes) in the last 12 years of his career.

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11-11-2012, 09:50 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In those two seasons, we saw a lot of Straka/Lang/Kovalev as a dominant second line taking heat off of Jagr. Jagr himself didn't have any elite linemates, but he wasn't facing nearly the amount of tough opposition that he saw in other years.



Michael Nylander and Martin Straka weren't exactly chopped liver.



Lemieux and Jagr didn't play on a line together, except for periods in Lemieux's last couple fractured seasons. Nor did Lemieux and Francis. Francis and Jagr were joined at the hip, though. The closest Lemieux/Jagr came to being regular linemates in a given season was the PP unit in 1995-96.



And how many would Fedorov have won if he had been focusing ONLY ON OFFENSE like Jagr? He played a defense-first style through the 90s, and displayed that he certainly had the talent to challenge for the scoring title.



Part of that is the fact that Fedorov and Forsberg played on powerhouse teams, so in a year they might have been a finalist on a weak team, they would lose Hart votes to teammates. Of course, the reliability of Hart voting is always questionable; after all, Kris Draper finished 28th in Hart voting (17th among forwards, 3rd among Detroit players) in 2004, while Jagr (and Lidstrom, oddly) received no votes.



No one is debating otherwise with any seriousness. But realistically, Jagr is closer to Fedorov/Forsberg than he is to Lemieux/Gretzky. Not offensively, certainly, but overall.
Do you realize that you've contradicted yourself in this argument?

You're saying that Jagr faced tougher opposition when Lemieux was there despite playing on different lines but when Lemieux retired, Jagr faced less of a competition?

So opposing teams during the Jagr and Lemieux days were more concerned on shutting down Jagr and Francis but leaving Lemieux to score hattricks every game? That to me seems a bit odd considering Lemieux is one of the 4 greatest players to ever lace them up.

Jagr consistently faced double teams, shadowing assignments and all that jazz in the days after Lemieux retired and usually made opponents look foolish. Straka, Kovalev and Lang didn't form this so-called dominant second line you bring up until the 2000-01 season. Straka was a decent player and was one of the top two-way centers of the NHL for a stretch of 2-3 seasons but he was nowhere near the player you seem to think he was. In fact until 2000-01, Lang and Kovalev never surpassed 70 Pts while Straka hit 83 in 1998-99 (the same amount of assists Jagr had that year coincidentally), yes in part due to his own good play but also because Jagr faced all the attention from opposing teams thus leaving Straka to have more space on the ice and face 2nd defensive pairings. Straka also racked up a lot of his points playing on Jagr's PP unit that season.

In contrast, this very same dynamic you claim Jagr benefited from is what Fedorov and Forsberg both benefited from playing most of their careers as the 1a, 1b option at center behind Yzerman and Sakic respectively. It was much harder to shut down both lines as you had to spread the defense against them because of the fact that they could roll 2 dominant lines not to mention in the case of Detroit and Colorado, very capable (offensively speaking) 3rd lines.

Another side to this whole argument is how these players that you have named (Straka, Lang, Kovalev, Francis and even Nylander) all had some of their best seasons and numbers playing either on Jagr's regular line, PP unit or just learning from him in practice and such. Jagr made players around him better.

Forsberg did this very well as well, Fedorov did this to a far lesser extent.

Jagr BTW is a lot closer to Gretzky and Lemieux overall than he is to Forsberg and Fedorov.

5 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearson awards, 10 top 10 finishes, 1 Hart, 6 Hart finalists standings, 660 + goals, 1600 + Pts counting say so.


Last edited by livewell68: 11-11-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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11-11-2012, 11:48 AM
  #295
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Do you realize that you've contradicted yourself in this argument?
No I didn't.

Jagr played plenty of seasons without either Lemieux/Francis OR Straka/Lang/Kovalev.

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Jagr BTW is a lot closer to Gretzky and Lemieux overall than he is to Forsberg and Fedorov.
Disagree.

Quote:
5 Art Ross trophies, 3 Pearson awards, 10 top 10 finishes, 1 Hart, 6 Hart finalists standings, 660 + goals, 1600 + Pts counting say so.
And Gordie Howe was top-five in scoring how many times consecutively? If we're just using finishes each year to measure a player's ability, Howe's track record is more impressive than even Gretzky offensively.

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11-11-2012, 12:07 PM
  #296
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No I didn't.

Jagr played plenty of seasons without either Lemieux/Francis OR Straka/Lang/Kovalev.



Disagree.



And Gordie Howe was top-five in scoring how many times consecutively? If we're just using finishes each year to measure a player's ability, Howe's track record is more impressive than even Gretzky offensively.
You've simply contradicted yourself.

We're not discussing Howe here, we're discussing Fedorov and how he simply doesn't measure up to Jagr.

I was using Gretzky and Lemieux as examples. Howe is irrelevant in this discussion.

Jagr doesn't have the consistency of being a top 10 player that Howe (in fact no one has) has so now we have to punish him?


Last edited by livewell68: 11-11-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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11-11-2012, 12:29 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure, overall, most people are going to peg Yzerman as the best player over those total years. Thing is, though, how much further down a rankings list can you put a guy who was not only undisputedly and clearly better than him on the same team over a meaningful chunk of that decade + (whether Yzerman was "better" for the "majority" or not), has almost the same number of accumulated points (and more playoff points - gap somewhat equivalent to the difference in their regular season production), and won more individual awards during their period together?
I don't know maybe because you can't ignore what Yzerman did before Fedorov arrived. Or the fact that He had more top 10 point finishes in that time period. Yzerman only had one less Selke and had a Conn Smythe. Yzerman was the leader of the team played at an elite level for longer.

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People are going to emphasize what they like when contemplating career or "overall" value, or whatever, but I probably rank them Yzerman/Sakic (I can never decide between these guys "overall"), Fedorov, Forsberg. If it was just a "best player" ranking, I'd probably go Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg. Forsberg gets too many "what if" points for his partial seasons when discussing his peak/prime, and for his early pseudo-retirement, imo, but he was a beast. Fourth on that list is not a slight by any means, though.
No matter what way you rank them I don't see the argument for Fedorov above Forsberg. Forsberg was just so much better offensively. What is the argument for Fedorov on your "best players" list? That fact that he had one amazing season? I think Sakic, Forsberg and Yzerman all Better and longer primes with similar peaks.
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yzerman and Sakic are often put on lists as inseparable twins in the manner the Sedins are. The thing is, that's folly.

Over the course of the overlapping portion of their careers, Yzerman and Sakic were virtually identical in terms of offensive output. Yzerman began this period as a solid defenive player and ended it having won a Selke (and contended for it for a decade). Sakic started his career as a pretty one-dimensional player; he wasn't a solid defensive player until the late 90s.

For the overlap period from 88-89 to 05-06, Sakic scored the most points and Yzerman was third.

Per-82 scoring went like this:
Sakic: 38-61-99
Yzerman: 37-58-95

That's in seasons both of them played in. It does not include Yzerman scoring 50-52-102 in 64 games (63-65-128 over a full 80) in 1987-88, or Sakic's 36-64-100 in 82 the year following Yzerman' retirement.

During the 90s rivalry, they were comparable level players. Sakic was putting out a bit more offense, but Yzerman was an elite defensive player at that point as well a being a PPG center.

Fedorov and Forsberg is a similar comparison, but it's closer because Forsberg has a notable lead over Fedorov offensively. Forsberg was never the elite defensive player Fedorov was, but overall they were of comparable level. A matter of taste in that respect. I would rank it Yzerman, Sakic, Fedorov/Forsberg. Fedorov would come first on a list if I had to choose because of superior durability and longevity; his per-game offensive numbers were hurt by the fact that he played through many of the same kind of minor injuries Forsberg would often sit out a game or two for. And having him on the ice, not scoring, still helped the team. A recent example of this is Marian Hossa in the 2009 playoffs. He wrecked his shoulder and basically couldn't shoot, but he played the whole run and did a wonderful job at everything but scoring goals. When the Wings lost (and ever since) Hossa took a lot of flak, but he was one of the team's best players (5th on the team in scoring, 6 points ahead of Datsyuk).
You make some good points but there's a few I have to disagree on. Yzerman also came into the league as a fairly one dimensional player. He wasn't really great defensively until the late 90s as well so you can't fault only Sakic for that. Fedorov may have been more durable for his career compared to Forsberg but I think your questioning Forsberg's character if you say he would just sit out through an injury if he could have played.

Quote:
If Fedorov had focused on offense-first like Lafleur did, or his former linemate Bure for that matter, he would have dominated the scoring lists.
yeah that's quite a stretch. For a guy that has two top 10 point finishes it hard to say he would dominate. Also then couldn't I say if Lafluer focused on defense he would have won Selkes to go along with his Art Rosses? It's all speculative and kind of impossible to say had he focused on offense he would have just dominated. I don't think he was that good offensively.
Quote:
You say the difference between Lafleur and Fedorov is bigger than that of Datsyuk and Kovalchuk?

Hmm. Let's use HR's adjuted stats to do some testing of your theory.

Adjusted stats:
Datsyuk 732GP, 261-504-765 (29-56-85)
Kovalchuk 779GP, 445-401-846 (47-42-89)

Lafleur 1126GP, 480-681-1161 (35-50-85)
Fedorov 1248GP, 508-718-1226 (33-47-80)

Looks like it's about the same difference. It's a wider gap by a very tiny margin, but Fedorov IMHO was better defensively than Datsyuk.

So your question. Would you take Datsyuk or Kovalchuk? The answer might tell you whether you would take Fedorov or Lafleur.
If you believe in adjusted stats I hope you think Jagr is a top 3 offensive player of all time. Or that Doug Gilmour was better than Bobby Hull. Adjusted stats are good but limited. They look even but Lalfuer was the one winning Hart trophies and scoring titles over HOF players. As Czech Your Math said the difference between Fedorov and Datysuk is not as great as Kovalchuk and Lafluer. I would take take Datsyuk over Kovalchuk slightly but I would easily take Lafluer over Fedorov. Although you brought up Kovalchuk, not me.

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11-11-2012, 12:36 PM
  #298
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But if Jagr is so great in the nhl regular season, why hasn't he ever dominated in the NHL playoffs? He never had a dominant playoffs where he led in anything, excepts game played.

Fedorov lead the playoffs in Points in 1995, Assists in 1995 and 1996, GWG's in 1997 and Goals in 1998 and is only the third player in NHL History to have 4 straight 20 point playoffs campaigns.


Funny how some try and make Best on Best statistics over a 20-Year period, as samples lol

Facts are Fedorov led PPG's in the Winter Olympics and PPG's and GPG's in the Canada Cup/World Cup over Jagr-Sakic-Forsberg-Lindros, while playing defense first in Best on Best International play

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11-11-2012, 12:58 PM
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
But if Jagr is so great in the nhl regular season, why hasn't he ever dominated in the NHL playoffs? He never had a dominant playoffs where he led in anything, excepts game played.

Fedorov lead the playoffs in Points in 1995, Assists in 1995 and 1996, GWG's in 1997 and Goals in 1998 and is only the third player in NHL History to have 4 straight 20 point playoffs campaigns.


Funny how some try and make Best on Best statistics over a 20-Year period, as samples lol

Facts are Fedorov led PPG's in the Winter Olympics and PPG's and GPG's in the Canada Cup/World Cup over Jagr-Sakic-Forsberg-Lindros, while playing defense first in Best on Best International play
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when in his prime, Jagr never had teams remotely as good as any of the teams that Fedorov or Forsberg played on. Jagr's PPG in the playoffs is better than Fedorov's. BTW Jagr's 2nd Stanley Cup win is a result of him having as equal a performance as any that Fedorov has had in the playoffs.

How many Hall of Fame caliber players did Fedorov play with during those playoff runs? Yzerman? Check... Lidstrom? Check.... Shanahan? Check.... Hull? Check

Give Jagr a team that deep in his prime and I bet the entire sink that Jagr doesn't have a similar run as Malkin or Leetch had.

As for this best on best tournament argument... the same again. The Czechs although had great success, were far weaker on paper than any of the great hockey nations; Russia, Canada, Sweden, Finland and USA.

In 1998 when Jagr helped the Czechs to the Gold at the Nagano games, he completely bought into the defense first philosophy of the Czechs and proved instrumental in them winning. Jagr also grew up playing in the Czech Republic, the ice surfaces in that country aren't Olympic size like it is in Russia. The Russians were tailored to excel Internationally. They had Larianov, Bure (who is basically far better than Fedorov Internationally), they had Mogilny, Constantinov, Zubov... just to name a few.

Fedorov didn't play this great defensive game Internationally as you claim BTW... The Russians were trying to blow teams in the round robin games. The Czechs on the other hand (specifically Nagano) were playing the tightest game defensively. Jagr was in fact playing a great two-way game in the Olympics and World Championships.

The Czechs were basically Jagr, Hasek and a bunch of good role players (outside of Elias in later years) basically while Russia was a who's who of International superstars. The Russian in the last 20 years have basically choked on far more occasions than they have succeeded while the Czechs have usually performed better than excepted minus the occasion when they lost the World Championships on home ice.

The 1995-96, 1998-99 and 1999-00 seasons that Jagr had are levels of domination that Fedorov never ever saw, even in 1993-94. Outside of just winning the 5 Art Ross trophies, Jagr also placed 2nd twice, once losing the Art Ross to Lemieux and once to Thornton by just 2 Pts. Jagr also placed 5th in scoring twice despite missing 19 games and 13 games respectively in those seasons.

Any way you cut, Jagr was better than Fedorov, in the playoffs, in the regular season, internationally. Heck even in the RSL/ KHL the very same league that Fedorov was accustomed in his career we saw Jagr dominate it to a better extent that Fedorov ever did.

Fedorov's a great player, with a great peak and very good career (he's a top 50 player most likely). Jagr on the other hand had a truly dominant prime and peak, a dominant overall career and is quite easily a top 15 player and has a legitimate claim to being top 10. Big difference here.

One is a great player that will be in the Hall of Fame while the other is a Generational talent that will be a 1st Ballot Hall of Famer.


Last edited by livewell68: 11-11-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old
11-11-2012, 01:05 PM
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that when in his prime, Jagr never had teams remotely as good as any of the teams that Fedorov or Forsberg played on. Jagr's PPG in the playoffs is better than Fedorov. BTW Jagr's 2nd Stanley Cup win is a result of him having as equal a performance as any that Fedorov has had in the playoffs.

How many Hall of Fame caliber players did Fedorov play with during those playoff runs? Yzerman? Check... Lidstrom? Check.... Shanahan? Check.... Hull? Check

Give Jagr a team that deep in his prime and I bet the entire sink that Jagr doesn't have a similar run as Malkin or Leetch had.

As for this best on best tournament argument... the same again. The Czechs although had great success, were far weaker on paper than any of the great hockey nations; Russia, Canada, Sweden, Finland and USA.

In 1998 when Jagr helped the Czechs to the Gold at the Nagano games, he completely bought into the defense first philosophy of the Czechs and proved instrumental in them winning. Jagr also grew up playing in the Czech Republic, the ice surfaces in that country aren't Olympic size like it is in Russia. The Russians were tailored to excel Internationally. They had Larianov, Bure (who is basically far better than Fedorov Internationally), they had Mogilny, Constantinov, Zubov... just to name a few.

Fedorov didn't play this great defensive game Internationally as you claim BTW... The Russians were trying to blow teams in the round robin games. The Czechs on the other hand (specifically Nagano) were playing the tightest game defensively. Jagr was in fact playing a great two-way game in the Olympics and World Championships.

The Czechs were basically Jagr, Hasek and a bunch of good role players (outside of Elias in later years) basically while Russia was a who's who of International superstars. The Russian in the last 20 years have basically choked on far more occasions than they have succeeded while the Czechs have usually performed better than excepted minus the occasion when they lost the World Championships on home ice.
OMG LOL Funniest post I've read so far! You really are pulling almost everything from air.

You obviously never watched team Russia play in the day, because Mogilny only played in 1996, Bure in 1998 and 2002 (with a Broken Hand) and Konstantinov never played in the Olympics or World Cup. So were you lying or misinformed?

Russia was missing half their team in 1998 because of the coaching problem Mogilny, Larionov, Fetisov, Khabibulin, Kozlov, Zubov etc, etc declined to play, Konstantinov's injury.. you never watched them obviously

Feds had better lines mates, so funny haha I think you mean Fedorov was the Better International Player - Game Over


Last edited by Stars23*: 11-11-2012 at 01:46 PM.
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