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11-10-2012, 08:52 AM
  #26
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I believe when Jagr did his presser in Dallas he said Montreal was his first choice. Not too long after there was an article on rds with Plekanec saying he was disappointed with the non-signing.

Instead of chasing Doan, Bergervin should have at least attempted to sign Jagr. It was clear Bergervin wanted to fill the hole in the top 6 with wanting to sign Doan. Jagr would have been cheaper and would have been a shorter term.

The non-signing of Jagr last year was easier to swallow because we signed Cole. This year, well I'm disappointed and surprised that Bergervin hasn't received 1/10th of the flack Gauthier received on these boards when he passed on Jagr.

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11-10-2012, 08:54 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
on the bright side, had PG not been so much smarter than the casual fan, and actually made an effort to sign Jagr, there's a good chance he would have came here, and a good chance that giving Pleks a scoring winger he can play with would have given us 2 solid offensive lines... which JM would have made into a playoff team, meaning we'd still have PG running the show... and no Gally. All in all, lucky for us that PG was "the smartest man in the room".
(and for all the talk of him not coming here b/c we weren't "contenders", 1 year later the guy signs with Dallas... clearly $$ was a priority, if we had made a ballpark offer, the pleks relationship would have definitely put us in the running)
Or considering we still had the same crappy defense,which was the number one problem last season, jagr could have just been another asset to trade at the deadline.

Also we were in the running. Jagr said his first choice was Montreal when he signed in Dallas, but Montreal never made him an offer.

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11-10-2012, 08:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Or considering we still had the same crappy defense,which was the number one problem last season, jagr could have just been another asset to trade at the deadline.

Also we were in the running. Jagr said his first choice was Montreal when he signed in Dallas, but Montreal never made him an offer.
See, funny how individual perspective leads to the same bits of info creating a completely different way of interpreting events...

I much more understand MB's decision not to be in the running then I did PG's.

- coming off a disastrous, last in the conference finish, expectations (both internal & external, even in Montreals demanding market, are tempered)... Which means a bigger window to build towards 2-3 years down the road. No real need to spend 4

- uncertainty around cba, and potential for changes that could force some teams to move contracts &/or. Encourage buy outs = potential positive to having greater cap/salary flexibility

- new coach and clear organizational desire to shift locker room culture not an ideal situation for a veteran like jagr.... While he did mesh well in his role in Philly, the dynamics were very different given top9 talent they have. Personally I'd have made a strong attempt to get him here, but I can see the rational of not wanting to make him 2nd highest paid fwd on our team.... He's a one-dimensional contributor at this stage, and while we need help in that dept., there is an ego/salary reality always at play in a pro sport team environment.

- a few very interesting contracts are up next summer, cap flexibility (new cba notwithstanding) may be a valuable commodity if a team decides to get trade value for an impending UFA we think we could extend beyond next season (perry, getzlaf, semin, zakat, flippula, clowe, Horton, iginla, elder, clarkson... All players who would be great medium-long term additions & much easier to secure via trade & sign then by waiting/hoping they hit UFA & choose us

I've more than described the reasons jagr to Mtl last season made a ton of sense, imo, and aside from the "tragic" miscalculation by the GM (and coach? Not ever made clear how much personnel input Martin had, though his Cole comments early in the year, and the timing of his firing, IMO suggest PG ran the ship his way first and foremost) its hard to see any reasonable excuse for why we didn't push hard for him last year.

Getting Cole (though at the time I hated the contract term... Still skeptical he will deliver decent value in year 4, & year 1 was a waste, but he did play up to/beyond expectations, hope he ages well) addressed some needs, but it was pretty obvious we needed more top 9 depth. Max pac's recovery was a big ? and even with him and cole having stellar seasons, a lack of top 9 depth killed us early on. Jagr would have been a perfect fit, both in hindsight and at the time.

He'd be nice to have this year, if we play, as well, but less of a need (given that our organizational changes & new direction almost imply a patient approach & muted expectations, at least in year 1).

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11-10-2012, 10:50 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
See, funny how individual perspective leads to the same bits of info creating a completely different way of interpreting events...

I much more understand MB's decision not to be in the running then I did PG's.

- coming off a disastrous, last in the conference finish, expectations (both internal & external, even in Montreals demanding market, are tempered)... Which means a bigger window to build towards 2-3 years down the road. No real need to spend 4
But Bergevin was willing to spend much more to acquire Doan. This gets forgotten in all discussions. So yes, Bergervin is building for down the road, yet he still wanted to fill the hole in the top 6 and was willing to offer Doan more money and for more years than Jagr. Actually Jagr could have benefited us even if we don't make the playoffs or don't do well because he becomes an asset.

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- uncertainty around cba, and potential for changes that could force some teams to move contracts &/or. Encourage buy outs = potential positive to having greater cap/salary flexibility
Like I said, Bergevin was willing to go for Doan even though we didn't have the cap space. This didn't bother Bergevin in Doan's case, so I really doubt this was Bergevin's mindset.

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- new coach and clear organizational desire to shift locker room culture not an ideal situation for a veteran like jagr.... While he did mesh well in his role in Philly, the dynamics were very different given top9 talent they have. Personally I'd have made a strong attempt to get him here, but I can see the rational of not wanting to make him 2nd highest paid fwd on our team.... He's a one-dimensional contributor at this stage, and while we need help in that dept., there is an ego/salary reality always at play in a pro sport team environment.
He's one dimensional, but we have very little players with skill on the team. We already have a lot of meat and potatoes type of players with Pacioretty, Cole, Armstrong, Bourque, Moen, Prust. Of course some of these players are better than others, but none of these guys are pure skill guys. Bergevin talked about balance, we lack players like Jagr on the team. Also the Plekanec connection is just a big time bonus as well as the fact there is a big hole in the top 6 and Jagr would only be on a one year deal.

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- a few very interesting contracts are up next summer, cap flexibility (new cba notwithstanding) may be a valuable commodity if a team decides to get trade value for an impending UFA we think we could extend beyond next season (perry, getzlaf, semin, zakat, flippula, clowe, Horton, iginla, elder, clarkson... All players who would be great medium-long term additions & much easier to secure via trade & sign then by waiting/hoping they hit UFA & choose us
Again while this is true, it still didn't stop Bergevin from being willing to spend whatever was left on the cap on Doan and what he was asking for. While it is true that contracts are up next year, it clearly wasn't what Bergevin was thinking considering he was willing to spend much more money on Doan for much longer.

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I've more than described the reasons jagr to Mtl last season made a ton of sense, imo, and aside from the "tragic" miscalculation by the GM (and coach? Not ever made clear how much personnel input Martin had, though his Cole comments early in the year, and the timing of his firing, IMO suggest PG ran the ship his way first and foremost) its hard to see any reasonable excuse for why we didn't push hard for him last year.
We had very little cap space after we signed Cole last season, who was a bigger need than Jagr considering the team's lack of size of physicality. Cole was a better fit despite his contract. You can easily use your "attitude and culture" excuse for Bergevin's non-signing with why PG and Martin didn't want him, namely that he didn't fit the system the team had in place. Considering that we had greater offensive depth at the begining of the last year, especially after the signing of Cole and very little this season, then it makes much more sense to have picked up Jagr this season, especially when Bergevin was looking to fill the hole in the top 6 when he was waiting around for Doan.


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Getting Cole (though at the time I hated the contract term... Still skeptical he will deliver decent value in year 4, & year 1 was a waste, but he did play up to/beyond expectations, hope he ages well) addressed some needs, but it was pretty obvious we needed more top 9 depth. Max pac's recovery was a big ? and even with him and cole having stellar seasons, a lack of top 9 depth killed us early on. Jagr would have been a perfect fit, both in hindsight and at the time.
Like I said, the non-signing of Jagr was easier to swallow last season considering we picked up Cole instead, after which there was little cap space left. Cole was more of a fit on the team last year anyway considering the way the discourse around the team's lack of size and meat and potatoes game that was caused after losing the in the Boston series.

The team's top 9 at the start of last season was

Pacioretty Desharnais Cole
Cammalleri Plekanec Gionta
Andrei Eller Gomez/Moen

Unless you put Gomez on the 4th line, there really wasnt that much more space in the top 9 last year.

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He'd be nice to have this year, if we play, as well, but less of a need (given that our organizational changes & new direction almost imply a patient approach & muted expectations, at least in year 1)
but this impatient approach is one you are reading into management's intention rather that what was there. The waiting around for Doan made it clear that Bergevin intended on having a competitive team this season. If it was really about rebuilding then we wouldn't have wasted his time with Doan like he didn't waste his time with Jagr. Given the hole in the top 6, the chemistry with Plekanec, our crappy PP, and the general lack of pure skill in the lineup, Jagr would have been a much better fit this year if Bergevin was looking for a top 6 foward, which he was as he explicitly stated this when he explained why he wanted Doan.

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11-11-2012, 12:22 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
But Bergevin was willing to spend much more to acquire Doan. This gets forgotten in all discussions. So yes, Bergervin is building for down the road, yet he still wanted to fill the hole in the top 6 and was willing to offer Doan more money and for more years than Jagr. Actually Jagr could have benefited us even if we don't make the playoffs or don't do well because he becomes an asset.



Like I said, Bergevin was willing to go for Doan even though we didn't have the cap space. This didn't bother Bergevin in Doan's case, so I really doubt this was Bergevin's mindset.



He's one dimensional, but we have very little players with skill on the team. We already have a lot of meat and potatoes type of players with Pacioretty, Cole, Armstrong, Bourque, Moen, Prust. Of course some of these players are better than others, but none of these guys are pure skill guys. Bergevin talked about balance, we lack players like Jagr on the team. Also the Plekanec connection is just a big time bonus as well as the fact there is a big hole in the top 6 and Jagr would only be on a one year deal.



Again while this is true, it still didn't stop Bergevin from being willing to spend whatever was left on the cap on Doan and what he was asking for. While it is true that contracts are up next year, it clearly wasn't what Bergevin was thinking considering he was willing to spend much more money on Doan for much longer.


We had very little cap space after we signed Cole last season, who was a bigger need than Jagr considering the team's lack of size of physicality. Cole was a better fit despite his contract. You can easily use your "attitude and culture" excuse for Bergevin's non-signing with why PG and Martin didn't want him, namely that he didn't fit the system the team had in place. Considering that we had greater offensive depth at the begining of the last year, especially after the signing of Cole and very little this season, then it makes much more sense to have picked up Jagr this season, especially when Bergevin was looking to fill the hole in the top 6 when he was waiting around for Doan.




Like I said, the non-signing of Jagr was easier to swallow last season considering we picked up Cole instead, after which there was little cap space left. Cole was more of a fit on the team last year anyway considering the way the discourse around the team's lack of size and meat and potatoes game that was caused after losing the in the Boston series.

The team's top 9 at the start of last season was

Pacioretty Desharnais Cole
Cammalleri Plekanec Gionta
Andrei Eller Gomez/Moen

Unless you put Gomez on the 4th line, there really wasnt that much more space in the top 9 last year.



but this impatient approach is one you are reading into management's intention rather that what was there. The waiting around for Doan made it clear that Bergevin intended on having a competitive team this season. If it was really about rebuilding then we wouldn't have wasted his time with Doan like he didn't waste his time with Jagr. Given the hole in the top 6, the chemistry with Plekanec, our crappy PP, and the general lack of pure skill in the lineup, Jagr would have been a much better fit this year if Bergevin was looking for a top 6 foward, which he was as he explicitly stated this when he explained why he wanted Doan.
last i checked MB didn't sign Doan.... making most of these points moot.

the rumors were there, and indications are that we were in the running (though the rumors on the offer were dubious from what i gathered), but MB ultimately didn't sign Doan.

hardly reasonable to critique MB for wanting Doan, and an even bigger stretch to suggest we didn't sign Jagr b/c he was going after Doan.

Nothing I've seen indicates MB wanted Jagr. The Doan issue is irrelevant to the discussion on Jagr.


you can choose to ignore the "culture" element, but everything about MB's moves thus far clearly indicate that he's after a specific type of element in his team. There is a strong consistency thus far of his roster & staffing decisions, the kind of consistency that reflects a plan/vision, and precisely the kind of consistency that was completely lacking in the former regime. It's so obvious its a bit puzzling how anyone could legitimately miss it.
Disagreeing with the type of culture he's trying to build is another thing... to each their own opinion of what kind of culture leads to success.

it is precisely the inconsistency of PG's moves that made the decision not to pursue Jagr even more idiotic. How you could not want a guy like Jagr, only to trade for guys like Kaberle/Bourque a few months later reflects incredibly poor judgement, and the results more than reflect that.

That Jagr fits a need this year only further highlights that he would have fit the same need last season... while we replaced the inconsistent but talented Cammalleri with the inconsistent but less talented Bourque, we also have much more established top-9 commodities in Pacioretty & Desharnais, plus the added fwd depth in Prust/Armstrong. Our fwd group heading into this season is, right now, better than it was a year ago, so i fail to see how you can argue that Jagr makes more sense this year than he did a year ago (one year younger, 1M$ cheaper, bigger need on our part).

It's strange, b/c the logic behind your arguments seem strikingly familiar to the same type of things you often complained about in defense of the previous regime... could it be the assessment of MB's tenure is a bit clouded by the frustration over backing the wrong horse?


Last edited by Miller Time: 11-11-2012 at 12:31 AM.
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11-11-2012, 05:27 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I believe when Jagr did his presser in Dallas he said Montreal was his first choice. Not too long after there was an article on rds with Plekanec saying he was disappointed with the non-signing.

Instead of chasing Doan, Bergervin should have at least attempted to sign Jagr. It was clear Bergervin wanted to fill the hole in the top 6 with wanting to sign Doan. Jagr would have been cheaper and would have been a shorter term.

The non-signing of Jagr last year was easier to swallow because we signed Cole. This year, well I'm disappointed and surprised that Bergervin hasn't received 1/10th of the flack Gauthier received on these boards when he passed on Jagr.
I'm not so sure MB was ever in hot pursue of Doan. It was something I am sure he dabbled about with, but he was never a top priority imo. Even if it was, I'm sure its because he feels Doan offers a bit more long term stability. I'm a huge JJ fan, but to me, this criticism has been overblown. We were near max on the cap, with no certainty of a compliance buyout of any kind. In order to get either of these guys it would've meant we needed to waive Gomez. I'm not so sure this would be a prudent move by a 3rd last place team. Seems like the type of move that has contributed to the lack of sustained success over the years.

We should MB a year or two before judging his non signings.

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11-11-2012, 09:02 AM
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Bergevin in an rds interview I'm person said that they made an offer to Doan and were waiting for him to make a decision with Phx. It wasn't a rumor, it was part of their off-season plan.

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11-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
last i checked MB didn't sign Doan.... making most of these points moot.
How so? The fact that he explicitly said he was chasing Doan means we wanted to fill the hole in the top 6, which means that letting the team be and re-building it instead isn't his number one priority. It's like saying that Gainey's intention was never to get a number one center because he never signed one. Bergevin said he was going for Doan because they lacked scoring in the top 6. So it is entirely relevant. If he wanted to fill the top 6 Jagr should have been an option considering the lack of skill on the team, the hole in top 6 and the crappy pp.

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the rumors were there, and indications are that we were in the running (though the rumors on the offer were dubious from what i gathered), but MB ultimately didn't sign Doan.
They weren't rumors. Bergevin in an interview said they were going after Doan and waiting for him to make a decision with PHX.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=403081

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Bergevin also confirmed that the club has shown some interest in unrestricted free agent forward Shane Doan,
There were other occasions when Bergevin was saying that intended to fill the top 6.

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hardly reasonable to critique MB for wanting Doan, and an even bigger stretch to suggest we didn't sign Jagr b/c he was going after Doan.
Where did I critique MB for wanting Doan? I said if Bergevin intended to fill the hole in the top 6, Jagr should have been an option as well considering he would have been signed for cheaper and on a much shorter deal and shouldn't have put all his eggs in one basket. Also considering the lack of pure skill on the team, Jagr would have been a good player to fill in that role and not have us rush Leblanc or Gallagher who MB said might fill the role if they don't find someone for the top 6. We all hated when last management rushed players that weren't ready.

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Nothing I've seen indicates MB wanted Jagr. The Doan issue is irrelevant to the discussion on Jagr.
Yes, you are right, MB didn't want Jagr and that is precisely what I didn't like. The Doan issue is relevant because Bergevin intended to fill the hole the top 6, but only chose to pursue Doan to fill that role. When he didn't sign, Bergevin said it will give a chance to Gallagher (who isn't at all ready for top 6 duty) or Leblanc (who should be given more developing time in the ahl) to fill it instead now, which would be pretty much what we've would have done with old management which is to rush prospects. If Bergevin wanted to sign Doan to fill that role, then it's pretty telling that he wanted a competitive team to some extent. Jagr should have been option as well, given his skill, which we lack, his chemistry with Plekanec and his ability to work a PP, which was a big problem last season.

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you can choose to ignore the "culture" element, but everything about MB's moves thus far clearly indicate that he's after a specific type of element in his team. There is a strong consistency thus far of his roster & staffing decisions, the kind of consistency that reflects a plan/vision, and precisely the kind of consistency that was completely lacking in the former regime. It's so obvious its a bit puzzling how anyone could legitimately miss it.
Disagreeing with the type of culture he's trying to build is another thing... to each their own opinion of what kind of culture leads to success.
I didn't ignore the culture argument, I'm saying that in one post you said that PG and Martin didn't want Jagr because of their "system" and that this was wrong and then two paragraphs before hand you give credit to Bergevin for wanting to stay with a specific culture. Just because his culture is consistent, doesn't mean it's 100% flawless. With type of "culture" you are inscribing to Bergevin, Montreal would never accept a player like Patrick Kane on their team, who was one of the key cogs in Chicago's cup run and is still a key component. Bergevin has also noted on several occasions that you need all type of players to win in hockey and we severely lack players of Jagr's type, which is why he would have been a good fit.

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it is precisely the inconsistency of PG's moves that made the decision not to pursue Jagr even more idiotic. How you could not want a guy like Jagr, only to trade for guys like Kaberle/Bourque a few months later reflects incredibly poor judgement, and the results more than reflect that.
PG didn't pursure Jagr, bit did sign Cole who was a bigger need at the time. Given the discourse around the team after losing the Boston series, the habs needed a player like Cole more so than a guy like Jagr. They didn't have any powerforward type players and Pacioretty was only starting to bud at the time. The habs had plenty of skill in the line up Desharnais, Eller, Andrei and Cammalleri, but they had very little guys who played a meat and potatoes game which the team lacked outside of Pacioretty and Cole.

Like I said, I was severely disappointed when PG didn't sign Jagr at first, because the team definitely needed another top 9 forward, but he still signed Cole which not only filled that need but filled the fact that this team hasn't had a forward like that in the longest time, a forward we could have used against Boston in 7 game series.

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That Jagr fits a need this year only further highlights that he would have fit the same need last season...
No not at all. Jagr fits a need this year because there is very little skill on the team. Outside of Desharnais and Eller, I don't think there is any other player who can beat people one on one. Jagr fits a need more so this season considering we have very little skill and many meat and potatoes type players with Prust, Armstrong, Pacioretty, Bourque, Cole and Moen; all guys who are pretty much north-south players, guys who won't beat you one on one. Also given the way the PP finished last year it makes Jagr more of a need. Additionally, the fact that Jagr would play in a top 6 role this year instead of a top 9 role last year means he would more important to the team this year.

Also, Cole was more of a need last season that Jagr given that Montreal's number one problem admitted by pretty much every single fan was that we didn't have any size or physical players who could crash the net or be strong a long the boards. Cole was definitely more of a need.

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while we replaced the inconsistent but talented Cammalleri with the inconsistent but less talented Bourque, we also have much more established top-9 commodities in Pacioretty & Desharnais, plus the added fwd depth in Prust/Armstrong. Our fwd group heading into this season is, right now, better than it was a year ago, so i fail to see how you can argue that Jagr makes more sense this year than he did a year ago (one year younger, 1M$ cheaper, bigger need on our part).
Prust or Armstrong are not top 6 players. Niether is Bourque. At this point, I'm not even sure if Gionta is still a top 6 forward. I disagree with the forward depth being much greater this year. Plekanec doesn't even have a top 6 forward to play with where as the start of last season he had two maybe three in Gionta, Cammaller and Andrei. This year he has Gionta. The forward group this year may be better than the forward group that finished off the season last year, but that is irrelavent considering Jagr was signed in the off-season of last year.

When Plekanec doesn't have a top 6 winger to play with this, I really don't see how you can say not-signing Jagr doesn't make as much sense as a year ago when Plekanec could have played with any one of Andrei, Cammaller, Cole, Gionta (who was coming off a 29 goal season) or Pacioretty. Instead, Plekanec has Bourque who doesn't look like he is able to be a top 6 forward and Gionta who we still don't know how he'll recover from his injuries. Given Michel Therrien's insistence that he will not break up Desharnais' line, then Plekanec is stuck without decent wingers, which makes signing Jagr a pretty smart move.

Also, it's pretty interesting and pretty telling considering Plekanec was disappointed we didnt pick up Jagr this off-season.

Quote:
« J'étais déçu, indique Plekanec, qui a inscrit 17 buts en 81 matchs la saison dernière. J'ai parlé à Jaromir avant le 1er juillet et il me ]disait qu'il était excité à l'idée de venir jouer à Montréal. Il aimait l'équipe et la ville. »
http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/343695.html

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It's strange, b/c the logic behind your arguments seem strikingly familiar to the same type of things you often complained about in defense of the previous regime... could it be the assessment of MB's tenure is a bit clouded by the frustration over backing the wrong horse?

No actually, it's stange because this non-move is the exact type of thing you would have blamed the old regime for. I already said previously that I was disappointed when we didn't Jagr last year, but that disappointment was shouldered by the fact that we picked up Cole who was a much bigger need given the discourse around the team.

The people that didn't like the non-signing of Jagr last year (you included) should not like it this year as well considering he is much more of a need this year(top 6) a need which Bergevin identified when he wanted to fill it with Doan.

The logic behind my argument is simple, we needed a top 6 forward, Bergevin agreed and Jagr should have been an option. The same way I kept on saying last season that a Hamrlik replacement was necessary and was severely disappointed when Gauthier did nothing to address it, especially after he had offered Hamrlik a contract indicating that he needed a similar d-man.


Last edited by Andy: 11-11-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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11-11-2012, 09:31 PM
  #34
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I would have been disappointed to see the Habs sign Jagr, especially if it were for more than one season. Bergevin did the right thing to go after Shane Doan, because he's the style of player in the same mold as Erik Cole, which is what the team wants now. He didn't get him, so be it. That's real life in the NHL free agents' market.

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11-12-2012, 12:43 AM
  #35
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MB didn't want Jagr.
MB didn't want Semin.
MB lowballed Subban and shopped him to Philadelphia.

But he wants Shane Doan.

Draw your inferences.

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11-12-2012, 08:45 AM
  #36
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I would have rather overpaid for Doan too, if it was between those two. I think Doan is a really effective NHL-style player. Jagr... well, at his age, anyway, he's a riskier proposition. The chemistry and pointage he's piling up with Plekanec is nice and all, but I'm not sold that it would translate into something that would ultimately help us win NHL hockey games. Plekanec's line is leaned on for some defensive assignments these days, and I don't see Jagr as being at all effective there. If they scored a few more but let in a few more as a result in that chink in the shutdown armour, it doesn't help in the end.

I'd have liked Jagr as a $3M signing in August, for very sure. But didn't he sign in the pretty early going anyway? It makes the whole Doan comparison kind of moot. Doan was a target of perceived opportunity who came up rather later on... Jagr was long gone by then.

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11-12-2012, 01:13 PM
  #37
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Just goes to show all the people who were debating on whether to get rid of Pleky after we drafted Galy that Pleky is still a great player. One bad year does not a player make. Same as one good year doesn't make a player a star. I'm still not convinced Desharnais is a better player than Pleky.

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11-13-2012, 02:56 AM
  #38
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Location: Calif via Montreal
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Pleky is a glue guy. But even a Mike Richards needs help. You can't have these guys do all the dirty work AND check AND score. We need playoff chemistry, not just regular season chemistry. We finally have top 6 size and a GM that understands what it takes to build a winner (tho he had Buff to do it with and they decided to let him go...). A guy like Plekanec needs size on his line AND a scorer. But if the scorer is Gionta, then we need Shrek to play LW.

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