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Old
11-10-2012, 10:33 PM
  #51
seanlinden
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Toronto isn't going to trade their #1 centre and their best defensive forward who's also 1 season removed from 30 goals for Roberto Luongo.... the other pieces involved aren't going to change that.

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11-10-2012, 10:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
I have a theory about Ryan Kesler and his effectiveness with certain wingers. I believe Kesler needs a right handed RW player who can pass the puck.
Kesler was most successful with Sundin and Samuelsson as his line mates at different times.

Kesler likes to use the right side of the ice a lot, and being a left handed shooting player myself, I find I pass better and easier to another left hand player. From what I've seen from Kes I've the past 10 years or so watching the Nucks I see he works better with at least one right handed player. Having Booth N Raymond on his line last year really didn't allow Kesler to do what makes him most effective. Booth always like to dump and chase whereas Raymond would carry the puck around and lose it.

Kesler needs someone to feed him forehand to forehand to utilize his shot more often, his shot is what makes Kesler most effective, since after getting 50 assists he decided he can pass the puck anymore
Agreed 100% which is why I lament at every opportunity the non signing of Patenteau, I'd pay 4M for his playmaking skills any day of the week. If he can rack up the assists with Tavares he can do it with Kesler EZPZ.

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11-10-2012, 11:04 PM
  #53
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Agreed 100% which is why I lament at every opportunity the non signing of Patenteau, I'd pay 4M for his playmaking skills any day of the week. If he can rack up the assists with Tavares he can do it with Kesler EZPZ.
Would have required dumping Malhotra and Raymond before we could have made that offer. And when you're trading under performing players like so, normally it's for other under performers. See Poilout for Lattendresse.

I'd have easily given PaP that much, but with the NTC for Manny keeping him safe and no one waning to pay only a pick for Raymond kept Gillis' hands tied.


But I do suspect my reasoning has a major part in why Kassian was acquired. He may not be the prototypical playmaker. But he has the size and tenacity to fit with Kesler and played quite well as the third to Hall and Henrigue in Windsor.

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Old
11-10-2012, 11:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
Would have required dumping Malhotra and Raymond before we could have made that offer. And when you're trading under performing players like so, normally it's for other under performers. See Poilout for Lattendresse.

I'd have easily given PaP that much, but with the NTC for Manny keeping him safe and no one waning to pay only a pick for Raymond kept Gillis' hands tied.


But I do suspect my reasoning has a major part in why Kassian was acquired. He may not be the prototypical playmaker. But he has the size and tenacity to fit with Kesler and played quite well as the third to Hall and Henrigue in Windsor.
I wouldnt of resigned Raymond or if I did sell him off for whatever I could get. Manny is gone next season anyways.

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11-10-2012, 11:24 PM
  #55
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I wouldnt of resigned Raymond or if I did sell him off for whatever I could get. Manny is gone next season anyways.
I would have allowed any team to sign Raymond to an offer sheet. Wouldn't have matched at any salary rate to be honest. But I also wouldn't let him leave via waivers or unsigned. (Meaning I would have qualified him to keep his rights)

Manny I would have approached early and asked his thoughts on moving. Had he not been willing I'd have tried waivers before buy out.

Neither are big losses but at least 1 could have garnered a pick. Possibly packaged both for 1 lesser player maybe?

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Old
11-10-2012, 11:43 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
I would have allowed any team to sign Raymond to an offer sheet. Wouldn't have matched at any salary rate to be honest. But I also wouldn't let him leave via waivers or unsigned. (Meaning I would have qualified him to keep his rights)

Manny I would have approached early and asked his thoughts on moving. Had he not been willing I'd have tried waivers before buy out.

Neither are big losses but at least 1 could have garnered a pick. Possibly packaged both for 1 lesser player maybe?
Realistically I wouldn't expect to much for either of them. 3rd being the most for Raymond, a project or young 4th liner for Manny. My biggest hope for next season besides a cup is that Manny is a lot better and can go out on top. He would be the ideal player-turned coach.

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11-11-2012, 12:31 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
Realistically I wouldn't expect to much for either of them. 3rd being the most for Raymond, a project or young 4th liner for Manny. My biggest hope for next season besides a cup is that Manny is a lot better and can go out on top. He would be the ideal player-turned coach.
Special teams, with defence being his main objective. I agree.

I'd have happily traded with another playoff team to grab a project 4th liner and a 3rd for both Manny and Raymond. Someone needed bottom 6 help while having a glut of waiver exempt prospects who project to being bottom 6 guys.

I wonder if Buffalo is still looking for a bottom 6 centre win face offs? I do find Pardy intriguing.

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Old
11-11-2012, 01:28 AM
  #58
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The main reason why I as a Canucks fan do not want McA is that besides his upcoming UFA status, if you compare him vs Higgins last year or Raymond in 10-11 their stats are basically the same. As been said many many times already we have enough middle six tweeners. He is not needed on Van. If that is condescending to you then you need to develop a thicker skin. He is redundant on our team.
Raymond in '10-'11 had 39 points vs Macarthur's 62, in what World is that basically the same? I guess Kessel was basically the same as Malkin this year.

I've already acknowledged that Macarthur's season was less than stellar last year, but in all likelihood he's a better playmaking winger than every player on your team not named Sedin. Even with a linemate shooting 6% below his career average and some time spent on the 3rd line, Macarthur only had 2 less assists than Higgins.

Anyways, the point is you didn't just say 'I don't want Macarthur', you said he couldn't crack the Canucks top 6 and that he 'clearly isn't' a playmaking winger, which he is. The point is you didn't know what you were talking about and in the very same post you were extremely critical and condescending towards another user for the same thing. Furthermore, if you want to gain a playmaking winger in a Luongo trade I don't know why you wouldn't want Macarthur.

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11-11-2012, 01:48 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Raymond in '10-'11 had 39 points vs Macarthur's 62, in what World is that basically the same? I guess Kessel was basically the same as Malkin this year.

I've already acknowledged that Macarthur's season was less than stellar last year, but in all likelihood he's a better playmaking winger than every player on your team not named Sedin. Even with a linemate shooting 6% below his career average and some time spent on the 3rd line, Macarthur only had 2 less assists than Higgins.

Anyways, the point is you didn't just say 'I don't want Macarthur', you said he couldn't crack the Canucks top 6 and that he 'clearly isn't' a playmaking winger, which he is. The point is you didn't know what you were talking about and in the very same post you were extremely critical and condescending towards another user for the same thing. Furthermore, if you want to gain a playmaking winger in a Luongo trade I don't know why you wouldn't want Macarthur.
Did you even read my post on the type of playmaking winger me and probably more Ncks fans agree with?

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Old
11-11-2012, 09:39 AM
  #60
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I would like the deal as a Nux fan if we got Johansson instead of Perrault

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Old
11-11-2012, 12:36 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by mstad101 View Post
Did you even read my post on the type of playmaking winger me and probably more Ncks fans agree with?
Yes, I read your theory than Canucks fans will arbitrarily agree with because they do not like acknowledging that players like Macarthur might actually be useful. But to be frank, it seems like you're being very picky. The Canucks already don't have a lot of trading partners as it is, to say, 'Oh we want a playmaking winger and ONLY a right handed one' you're limiting yourself even more. The only player I can think of on teams that are in the market for Luongo that might fit that criteria is Kris Versteeg, and I'm not so sure the Panthers would be willing to part with him considering they have Markstrom who will be NHL ready long before Luongo's contract runs out. If you guys don't want to trade Luongo, fine, but here on the trades board the point is to speculate possible trades, and when you make ridiculously specific criteria like this, it really handcuffs the discussion. The fact is, if Luongo is to be traded I don't think Vancouver will just be able to say, "Okay, we want this, this and this and they have to be EXACTLY as specified," that's just not the way trading in the NHL works.

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11-11-2012, 01:43 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Raymond in '10-'11 had 39 points vs Macarthur's 62, in what World is that basically the same? I guess Kessel was basically the same as Malkin this year.

I've already acknowledged that Macarthur's season was less than stellar last year, but in all likelihood he's a better playmaking winger than every player on your team not named Sedin. Even with a linemate shooting 6% below his career average and some time spent on the 3rd line, Macarthur only had 2 less assists than Higgins.

Anyways, the point is you didn't just say 'I don't want Macarthur', you said he couldn't crack the Canucks top 6 and that he 'clearly isn't' a playmaking winger, which he is. The point is you didn't know what you were talking about and in the very same post you were extremely critical and condescending towards another user for the same thing. Furthermore, if you want to gain a playmaking winger in a Luongo trade I don't know why you wouldn't want Macarthur.
The year before last was his career season so far. To be perfectly honest, that seems to be more of an exception then last year. Toronto pick him up from Atlanta, who deemed him absolutely expendable. For that matter, Buffalo too. He topped 31 points as his highest total before coming to Toronto.

If he were to come to Vancouver, how ever that may be, he's still in direct competiton with Burrows, Daniel and Booth, whom I don't think he will unseat, and Kassian, Higgins, Raymond and possibly Hansen for a second line winger spot with Kesler and Booth. Higgins has the chemistry with the other two, so in most of our eyes, the spot is his to lose to Mac or the other three. The point I want to make is that he would have to earn the remaining top six spot against 4 other players who's career numbers look a lot like Mac's did prior to, what I hope for his and Toronto's sake is, his break out year.

There is also concern he may not make the Leafs top six with JVR being added, with Kessel, Bozak, Lupul, Kulemin, Grabovski and JVR, according to some, taking the top six positions in Toronto.

And if we're basing a style of play as reason for him to get the spot above the others, he is advertised as a playmaker by most Leafs fans, his career goals to assists ration is 85:108. Meaning with out the 20 assists extra he put up the year before last, it would almost be even. That isn't a playmakers kind of ratio. That's not me knocking his skill, just I don't think he'd be a guarenteed improvement over what we could have already.

Anyway, he's not guarenteed a spot, so saying he absolutely wouldn't make the Canucks top six might be over the top, but we don't want another "maybe", and if it isn't for sure, or even more then likely, we're not calling him a top six winger on our team.

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:35 PM
  #63
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A 3-team, 13-player trade. Really?

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:34 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
The year before last was his career season so far. To be perfectly honest, that seems to be more of an exception then last year. Toronto pick him up from Atlanta, who deemed him absolutely expendable. For that matter, Buffalo too. He topped 31 points as his highest total before coming to Toronto.

If he were to come to Vancouver, how ever that may be, he's still in direct competiton with Burrows, Daniel and Booth, whom I don't think he will unseat, and Kassian, Higgins, Raymond and possibly Hansen for a second line winger spot with Kesler and Booth. Higgins has the chemistry with the other two, so in most of our eyes, the spot is his to lose to Mac or the other three. The point I want to make is that he would have to earn the remaining top six spot against 4 other players who's career numbers look a lot like Mac's did prior to, what I hope for his and Toronto's sake is, his break out year.

There is also concern he may not make the Leafs top six with JVR being added, with Kessel, Bozak, Lupul, Kulemin, Grabovski and JVR, according to some, taking the top six positions in Toronto.

And if we're basing a style of play as reason for him to get the spot above the others, he is advertised as a playmaker by most Leafs fans, his career goals to assists ration is 85:108. Meaning with out the 20 assists extra he put up the year before last, it would almost be even. That isn't a playmakers kind of ratio. That's not me knocking his skill, just I don't think he'd be a guarenteed improvement over what we could have already.

Anyway, he's not guarenteed a spot, so saying he absolutely wouldn't make the Canucks top six might be over the top, but we don't want another "maybe", and if it isn't for sure, or even more then likely, we're not calling him a top six winger on our team.
I can't speak for Macarthur before he came to the Leafs, because he wasn't really a played I paid that much attention to, but just looking at the stats in the year he was traded (which by the way, he recorded more than 31 points), he was the 5th highest scoring forward on Atlanta with the 9th most ice time per game among forwards.
Regardless, I'm not sure why people seem to think a change of scenery and a chance at a top 6 role can't revitalize a guy's career (even excluding 2010-2011, he had 8 more points in 8 less games than his previous career high in 2011-2012, and this is with a completely snakebitten linemate shooting 6.5%), and I can assure you despite whatever his stats before coming to Toronto may say, the 'new' Macarthur is a passer. If you don't want him, fine, but I'm not sure who you guys are expecting when you say you want a playmaking winger as a part of the Luongo trade if you're so sure Macarhthur isn't good enough. It is a fact that Macarthur has more assists in a single season than any Canucks winger not named Sedin, by a good margin too, if you don't think he'd make the Canucks top 6 that is fine, but don't be so quick to dismiss him.

And don't take this the wrong way, as OBVIOUSLY the Canucks top 6 is much better than the Leafs, but if you're looking at that 4th winger for Vancouver's top 6, the Leafs just have better options, with 2 of Kulemin, JVR, Macarthur, and possibly Kadri and Frattin playing on the wing for our second line. So saying he might not make the Leafs top 6 does not mean he would automatically not make Vancouver's.

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11-11-2012, 03:43 PM
  #65
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I can't speak for Macarthur before he came to the Leafs, because he wasn't really a played I paid that much attention to, but just looking at the stats in the year he was traded (which by the way, he recorded more than 31 points), he was the 5th highest scoring forward on Atlanta with the 9th most ice time per game among forwards.

Regardless, I'm not sure why people seem to think a change of scenery and a chance at a top 6 role can't revitalize a guy's career (even excluding 2010-2011, he had 8 more points in 8 less games than his previous career high in 2011-2012, and this is with a completely snakebitten linemate shooting 6.5%), and I can assure you despite whatever his stats before coming to Toronto may say, the 'new' Macarthur is a passer. If you don't want him, fine, but I'm not sure who you guys are expecting when you say you want a playmaking winger as a part of the Luongo trade if you're so sure Macarhthur isn't good enough. It is a fact that Macarthur has more assists in a single season than any Canucks winger not named Sedin, by a good margin too, if you don't think he'd make the Canucks top 6 that is fine, but don't be so quick to dismiss him.

And don't take this the wrong way, as OBVIOUSLY the Canucks top 6 is much better than the Leafs, but if you're looking at that 4th winger for Vancouver's top 6, the Leafs just have better options, with 2 of Kulemin, JVR, Macarthur, and possibly Kadri and Frattin playing on the wing for our second line. So saying he might not make the Leafs top 6 does not mean he would automatically not make Vancouver's.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to comment on his play or skill level, just that from what I've seen through his play in Atlanta and Buffalo, he seemed more of a skilled bottom six guy, someone that was set up by playmakers rather then doing the passing himself. If he's changed, excellent, watching a player in a new role is exciting, but in the Leafs games I did catch last year, I didn't see it. You're knowledge of him would out weigh mine, I mean the Leafs aren't the team I try to catch all 82 games for, but the last two years vs. my impressions before that is what I was trying to compare (not the point totals, but the goals vs. assists compared to the games I saw of him).

And I agree that being out of the Leafs top six doesn't automatically discount him from ours, but it's hard to call him a top six forward if he's lost his position to someone else (sorry, if it's not obvious, it's a dig at the Luongo thread).

My point on him not being a bonafide top six player on this team stands though, as he is, at best, a slight improvement on options already available to us. I'm not saying I don't want him, I'm not saying he isn't top 6 material, I'm not saying he's not talented or not valuable to the Leafs, but he isn't as valuable to the Canucks. I'd like him on this team, but not as the, or one of the, centerpieces in a trade where we move a star player.

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11-11-2012, 03:52 PM
  #66
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to comment on his play or skill level, just that from what I've seen through his play in Atlanta and Buffalo, he seemed more of a skilled bottom six guy, someone that was set up by playmakers rather then doing the passing himself. If he's changed, excellent, watching a player in a new role is exciting, but in the Leafs games I did catch last year, I didn't see it. You're knowledge of him would out weigh mine, I mean the Leafs aren't the team I try to catch all 82 games for, but the last two years vs. my impressions before that is what I was trying to compare (not the point totals, but the goals vs. assists compared to the games I saw of him).

And I agree that being out of the Leafs top six doesn't automatically discount him from ours, but it's hard to call him a top six forward if he's lost his position to someone else (sorry, if it's not obvious, it's a dig at the Luongo thread).

My point on him not being a bonafide top six player on this team stands though, as he is, at best, a slight improvement on options already available to us. I'm not saying I don't want him, I'm not saying he isn't top 6 material, I'm not saying he's not talented or not valuable to the Leafs, but he isn't as valuable to the Canucks. I'd like him on this team, but not as the, or one of the, centerpieces in a trade where we move a star player.
These are all fair points and I appreciate your maturity, I just wanted to clear up what seemed to be some misconceptions by other posters. I certainly think the Leafs would have to add another significant piece+ for Luongo, I just wanted to make sure you guys understood that Macarthur could potentially actually be useful for the Canucks. I also think Kulemin would look great playing with Kesler, I just question the logic in trading him after such a terrible season.

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:33 PM
  #67
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These are all fair points and I appreciate your maturity, I just wanted to clear up what seemed to be some misconceptions by other posters. I certainly think the Leafs would have to add another significant piece+ for Luongo, I just wanted to make sure you guys understood that Macarthur could potentially actually be useful for the Canucks. I also think Kulemin would look great playing with Kesler, I just question the logic in trading him after such a terrible season.
Maturi-what? I think that's the first time I've heard that in a Luongo thread, either about myself or our fan base

Well I do appriciate we can have a discussion and not be yelling biased slogans being repeated at each other. I think either could be great wingers for Kesler and Booth, but in all honesty, most of what either would bring are represented in the other four I mentioned.

Hansen is a tenacious forechecker and is a shifty player, Raymond is probably the only one of the potential six to keep pace with both other players all game, Kassian is big and can hit like a freight train...and both fight for net position he and Hansen, and Higgins probably has the best offensive instincts of the lot...I mean Kulemin is big, can carry the puck and can make plays and MacArthur, either as the playmaker you know or the one to finish a play I remember, would fit in just as well.

Either shouldn't be the main focus of what we're trading Luongo for however, and I feel they would be considered more of a throw in then is perhaps fair to their talents, at least as far as Canucks fans and likely our brass are concerned.

And I should mention I feel the same way about Lupul, in that he's nearly a ppg player in Toronto, but most of us see him as more of a 40-50 guy when healthy. Some players are better fits on the team they're with, and more valuable to that team then in a trade.

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Old
11-11-2012, 07:04 PM
  #68
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So let me get this straight...

Toronto receives:
Luongo (elite goalie)
Marcus Johansson (22yo center with great upside)
Andrew Alberts (4th-5th D)
Joel Ward

And Toronto gives:
Tyler Bozak (Coming off a disappointing season)
Nikolai Kulemin (Coming off a disappointing season)
Clarke MacArthur (Coming off a disappointing season)
Jesse Blacker (mid-level prospect)


Any other scraps Toronto wants to get rid of?? Might as well give Jeff Finger away too
I completely agree with you, but I feel that it is my duty to inform everyone that Alberts is neither a 4th nor 5th defenseman. Realistically he could play in the #6 spot, but he should be a #7. AV just insists on playing him.
thanks for everyone's time

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11-11-2012, 07:08 PM
  #69
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Toronto isn't going to trade their #1 centre and their best defensive forward who's also 1 season removed from 30 goals for Roberto Luongo.... the other pieces involved aren't going to change that.
you mean Bozak (a second/third line centre and soon to be ufa) and Kuleman (7 goal scorer who got 30 the year before)

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11-11-2012, 07:50 PM
  #70
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you mean Bozak (a second/third line centre and soon to be ufa) and Kuleman (7 goal scorer who got 30 the year before)
You say that like you're correcting him, but everything he said is still true. You can't complain about other fanbases not knowing what the Canucks need and then fail to understand why Toronto would be hesitant to trade a guy like Bozak. Bozak has much more value to the Leafs as their #1 center (albeit a poor one) than he does as a #3 in Vancouver.

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11-11-2012, 08:26 PM
  #71
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You say that like you're correcting him, but everything he said is still true. You can't complain about other fanbases not knowing what the Canucks need and then fail to understand why Toronto would be hesitant to trade a guy like Bozak. Bozak has much more value to the Leafs as their #1 center (albeit a poor one) than he does as a #3 in Vancouver.
I completely agree with you here and I do agree that the Leafs have a couple of players who can be useful on the Nucks.
But your line of thinking needs to be shared amoungst other Leaf fans in the way we value your players coming across, must be seen for Luongo as well. Despite the fact we have an option just as good or better does not take away from Luongo himself. Especially considering he is a better option pretty much year in and year out than 20 other starters; Leafs included, he should still be valued as the quality number 1 he has been for ever.

I understand that Mac has grown as a player there, but having Mac as the center piece in a Luongo trade, when we are giving the best player in the deal and not even breaking even doesn't make sense asset management wise. Now adding quality pieces like a solid prospect and a protected 1st, that gets closer to an actual deal.
Mac has as many questions about him as Lupul, who as others have stated I see more of a 2nd line complimentary forward on a team like Vancouver where we have proven first line players. So I value him as such. Mac I see as a Higgins/Raymond like tweener and value him as such to Vancouver. Given the knowledge the Nucks have comparables already in place along with a minimum of two prospects who project right now as 2nd line players who could fit with Kesler well, Mac just doesn't seem like the best possible piece for Luongo

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11-11-2012, 09:30 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
you mean Bozak (a second/third line centre and soon to be ufa) and Kuleman (7 goal scorer who got 30 the year before)
Below sums it up pretty nicely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
You say that like you're correcting him, but everything he said is still true. You can't complain about other fanbases not knowing what the Canucks need and then fail to understand why Toronto would be hesitant to trade a guy like Bozak. Bozak has much more value to the Leafs as their #1 center (albeit a poor one) than he does as a #3 in Vancouver.
Whether or not Bozak is miscast in the role is irrelevant in any trade talks that don't involve a superior centre going back. Players value to teams are relative to the roles they fill and how good a job they do of filling it. It has little or nothing to do with what labels fans choose to apply to them. Obviously, Bozak presently fills the role of a #1C for Toronto, a pretty important position, and as such, is not a movable piece. Sure, if we were talking a trade for Ryan Kesler or the Sedins, then Bozak would be expendable and in play, but that's not the case here. The only way the Leafs can justify moving Bozak, is if a clearly superior centre is going the other way.

As for Kulemin, considering how poor the Leafs time of posession is, and the degree to which they lack size up front (hence having to trade a shutdown defenceman for another big forward), the probability of moving the only other forward with size is almost as low as Bozak.

As for what the Leafs should be prepared to pay for Luongo... it's going to be reflective of what he brings to the team. That means a proven #1 goaltender, instead of relying on James Reimer, on the upside. The Leafs could reasonably go from bottom-5 goaltending to top-10 if they made a deal for Luongo. Substantial upside, without a doubt.

On the downside, it brings a substantial contract with a lot of years, procludes the Leafs from building their young team around a young goaltender who has quite similar numbers to the goalie that displaced Luongo in Vancouver (in addition to being a few years younger), and comes at the opportunity cost of potentially acquiring a stop gap solution to tandem with Reimer.

Is there a price the Leafs will be prepared to pay for Luongo? Absolutely. The specific price will be highly dependent on what the new CBA looks like. However, that price will not rise to the point of losing core pieces. Forget guys like Bozak, Kulemin, Lupul. The players available will be the likes of Lombardi, MacArthur, Ashton, Frattin, Kadri. If the Canucks can do better trading him elsewhere, and find a team with a greater desire to get Luongo, then that's the reality of a free market.


Last edited by seanlinden: 11-11-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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11-11-2012, 10:46 PM
  #73
Yossarian54
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Of all the various 3 way Luongo trades, I think this one is the least idiotic. I'd probably do it, but I don't think it'd happen.

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11-11-2012, 11:01 PM
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Carlzner
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MW6 you are obsessed with Kulemin and hate Johansson...

Here's something that may open your eyes... Perreault had more points than Kulemin in less games. Why do we make this trade?

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11-11-2012, 11:53 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braden Carlzner View Post
MW6 you are obsessed with Kulemin and hate Johansson...

Here's something that may open your eyes... Perreault had more points than Kulemin in less games. Why do we make this trade?
By that logic I guess we should trade Ovechkin for Lupul.

Caps would be dumb not to do this.

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