The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
I'm really calling a lot of doubt on this one: no way is the NHL expanding to 32 teams anytime soon (another southern team will move to Canada before that ever happens). Another team in Toronto seems to have become the popular rumor to be kicked around on a slow news day: I can't imagine anyone wanting to have a team in the same city as the Leafs. Yeah, the Leafs have the longest running active drought at the moment but no way are its fans going to throw away what is essentially family loyalty for what could be seen as an upstart. Quebec, though, I can see happening but not via expansion but through another team move like I mentioned.
Half the population of Toronto wasn't even born in Canada. Then factor in a whole bunch of transplants to Toronto from other parts of the country. This Leafs "family loyalty" thing doesn't really exist any more. Kids now in Toronto have absolutely no reason to like the Leafs, even if their parents and grandparents did.
Today's adult generation grew up being force fed Leafs and only Leafs on TV during the long and painful 1980's, they really had no choice but to like the Leafs. There are far more non-Leaf fans in Toronto today than ever before. Internet, TSN and NHL Centre Ice assure that you can get non-Leaf coverage day and night.
A second team in Toronto is a no-brainer. Ottawa was at least in theory full of Leaf and Habs fans before the Senators showed up and now there's a whole bunch of Senators fans. Same thing would happen in Toronto - some portion of fans would decide the new Markham Majors would be their favourite team, others would still be Leaf fans but would actually go to Markham for games. It would work. Easily a top-10 revenue team in the NHL.
Half the population of Toronto wasn't even born in Canada. Then factor in a whole bunch of transplants to Toronto from other parts of the country. This Leafs "family loyalty" thing doesn't really exist any more. Kids now in Toronto have absolutely no reason to like the Leafs, even if their parents and grandparents did.
Today's adult generation grew up being force fed Leafs and only Leafs on TV during the long and painful 1980's, they really had no choice but to like the Leafs. There are far more non-Leaf fans in Toronto today than ever before. Internet, TSN and NHL Centre Ice assure that you can get non-Leaf coverage day and night.
A second team in Toronto is a no-brainer. Ottawa was at least in theory full of Leaf and Habs fans before the Senators showed up and now there's a whole bunch of Senators fans. Same thing would happen in Toronto - some portion of fans would decide the new Markham Majors would be their favourite team, others would still be Leaf fans but would actually go to Markham for games. It would work. Easily a top-10 revenue team in the NHL.
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Your point is that Leaf fans in Vancouver didn't stay Leaf fans when the a better Canucks team got to town so the same outcome will happen to Leaf fans in Toronto when Markham gets a team? Seriously?
Your point is that Leaf fans in Vancouver didn't stay Leaf fans when the a better Canucks team got to town so the same outcome will happen to Leaf fans in Toronto when Markham gets a team? Seriously?
I'm sure the Rangers lost plenty of fans to the Islanders in the early 80s.
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.
If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:
WEST
Pacific
Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim
Northwest
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Central
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas
EAST
Northeast
Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec
Atlantic
Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly
American
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.
If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:
WEST
Pacific
Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim
Northwest
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Central
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas
EAST
Northeast
Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec
Atlantic
Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly
American
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.
If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:
WEST
Pacific
Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim
Northwest
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Central
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas
EAST
Northeast
Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec
Atlantic
Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly
American
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
Swap Pitt/Clb and/or Wash with Dal/Nash and/or St.L then it would be great.
I don't believe this because don't the Maple Leafs have a say on if another team was to start up in the Toronto area?
The Leafs new owners are 2 communications companies: Adding a team in their market can now make them money (let's say by giving them broadcasting rights) where-as previously another team would've only hurt their value (in theory; I don't really believe it would though).
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Hell, we were force fed them even after those teams were added: My only relief from them on Saturday night is CHEX (Who usually shows my second favourite team, The Jets) .
The Leafs new owners are 2 communications companies: Adding a team in their market can now make them money (let's say by giving them broadcasting rights) where-as previously another team would've only hurt their value (in theory; I don't really believe it would though).
The question is what's more valuable to the new owners.... the broadcasting/indemnity rights for a second team in the GTA/southern Ontario or their monopoly over southern Ontario?
It's a stance I could really see them going either way on.
Before expansion the only Canadian teams were TO & Montreal. The Leafs were marketed as "English Canada's team". The fans in BC, Alberta, Mb. & Ottawa had no problem supporting a better local team even after being force fed the Leafs for so long.
It would likely be the same for another team in the GTA (or Hamilton).
Force fed? Yes, they strapped you to a chair and said you watch this or else right? No one "forced" the Leafs or the Canadiens upon anyone.
Force fed? Yes, they strapped you to a chair and said you watch this or else right? No one "forced" the Leafs or the Canadiens upon anyone.
The Leafs being the 7 PM game on CBC for 70+ years wasn't them being forced upon hockey fans? Fans of the NHL had a choice between watching the Leafs, listening to a language you don't fully understand, or watching nothing and you say that they weren't forced upon everyone else in this country?
The Leafs being the 7 PM game on CBC for 70+ years wasn't them being forced upon hockey fans? Fans of the NHL had a choice between watching the Leafs, listening to a language you don't fully understand, or watching nothing and you say that they weren't forced upon everyone else in this country?
Correct. You have a problem with Conn Smythe, the Molsons?.
Correct. You have a problem with Conn Smythe, the Molsons?.
There's a reason why there were only two teams in Canada for ages: Toronto and Montreal wanted a monopoly on the country and fought like hell to keep other teams out. Regard "The Great Molson Boycott"
There's a reason why there were only two teams in Canada for ages: Toronto and Montreal wanted a monopoly on the country and fought like hell to keep other teams out. Regard "The Great Molson Boycott"
... mm. Its complicated. Over a glass of beer. I dont drink the **** so go figure. Over Beer? Could not be possibly be?.
... mm. Its complicated. Over a glass of beer. I dont drink the **** so go figure. Over Beer? Could not be possibly be?.
Back in '79 Montreal and Toronto blocked the NHL/WHA merger because they didn't want any more teams in Canada and the merger stood to add another three teams to the Great White North. This led to outrage and a massive nationwide boycott of Molson in Canada that forced Montreal to switch it's vote and allow the merger (Toronto never did end it's opposition but fans only needed one of them to switch to get the merger through).
I think with two relocations the NHL could improve and realign itself to become a much more logically built league combining traditional franchises with newer ones. I suggest Phoenix to Seattle (no brainer, even Shane Doan might like this move). Secondly Florida to Québec. My reaction to hockey in Miami is something along the lines of Dicky Dunn in Slapshot, or Roy L. Fuchs in Used Cars. Just doesn't jive. No matter the lease, Miami will always be a revenue draining market, as opposed to a revenue maker, especially ancillary revenue which is the basis for current revenue sharing.
If this happened you could maintain and reconfigure the current divisional setup to form an alignment like this:
WEST
Pacific
Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim
Northwest
Colorado
Calgary
Edmonton
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Central
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas
EAST
Northeast
Toronto
Ottawa
Buffalo
Montréal
Québec
Atlantic
Boston
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey
Philly
American
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
I think each division then has its fair share of rivalries based on geography and tradition. The post 93 teams are balanced with more traditional markets. I suggest an 8-3-3 format instead of the current one to accentuate rivalries, and for the Western Conference to balance the burden of travel.
Expansion is nice if there is room for it, but I think with competing European and Russian leagues the NHL has to respect that it risks saturation of its talent.
Ahh, it's good, I wouldn't complain with that. But it could be better:
Quote:
PACIFIC
Vancouver
Seattle
San Jose
L.A.
Anaheim
That Division should be matched with something similar in the east, or else Vancouver's alignment sticks out like a sore thumb. For Example:
NORTHEAST
Montreal
Boston
NY Islanders
NY Rangers
New Jersey
(which also keeps Montreal and Boston together)
Having your other western Canadian-content Division
Match this eastern one:
GREAT LAKES
Ottawa
Toronto
Buffalo
Detroit
Chicago
Now, no matter how much I think 2 Florida teams are at least 1 Florida team too many, there is no immediate sign that either team is going to disappear anytime soon:
Quote:
AMERICAN
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
The problem still remains though as to which three other teams would combine with the two Florida teams to create a well-rounded hockey Division. Other than one idea of combining the Florida teams with the NYC area teams, another option could be this one:
ATLANTIC
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Washington
Tampa Bay
Florida
(also keeps the Pennsylvania teams together)
Now that changes up your
Quote:
CENTRAL
Detroit
Chicago
St. Louis
Nashville
Dallas
To make this
CENTRAL
Dallas
St Louis
Nashville
Columbus
Carolina
A Division which I think creates an interesting mix and potential for those teams.
Putting that all together:
West
East
PACIFIC
NORTHEAST
Vancouver
Montreal
Seattle
Boston
San Jose
NY Islanders
Los Angeles
NY Rangers
Anaheim
New Jersey
Portland
Quebec City
-
-
GREAT LAKES
NORTHWEST
Ottawa
Edmonton
Toronto
Calgary
Buffalo
Winnipeg
Detroit
Minnesota
Chicago
Colorado
Southern Ont
Milwaukee
-
-
CENTRAL
ATLANTIC
Dallas
Florida
St Louis
Tampa Bay
Nashville
Washington
Columbus
Philadelphia
Carolina
Pittsburgh
Kansas City
Atlanta
Blue = Expansion 1, Red = Expansion 2, Purple = Expansion 3.
(Ultimately Atlanta could flip Divisions with Carolina.)
Also notice that there are 3 Orig-6 teams in both Conferences.
Last edited by MoreOrr: 11-12-2012 at 11:56 PM.
Reason: Naming error
As a Vancouver fan, I *hate* that Pacific division. I want at least a couple of teams in my division that have "hockey or death" type fan bases. Swap a couple of the Cali teams for Edmonton and Calgary, and it's a whole lot more acceptable.
Orr, you know I love your Mix East And West agenda.
However, there's a number of things I'd change.
If you're adding six markets, why not use the markets themselves to solve why W-E conferences don't work?
For example, if we add QUE and Southern Ontario, we have 18 ETZ teams. Why not simply add four more in the WEST instead of Atlanta (who's lost a team twice)?
TOR, BUF, PIT, DET, CBJ, SO ONT
BOS, QUE, MON, OTT, WAS, CAR
NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI, FLA, TB
MIN, CHI, STL, NSH, DAL, Houston
WIN, EDM, CAL, COL, PHX, Salt Lake
LA, ANA, SJS, VAN, SEA, Portland
Houston is larger than MIL, MIL is right on top of CHI while HOU is four hours from DAL.
Salt Lake is smaller than KC or MIL, but would give Colorado a regional rival.
