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Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

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Old
11-09-2012, 08:11 PM
  #76
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That's actually a pretty fair comparison. I wouldn't do it if I was Edmonton either but value wise I think it's close.


Last edited by Flames rebuilder: 11-09-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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Old
11-09-2012, 09:18 PM
  #77
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Good value for all clubs really, would never happen though.

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11-10-2012, 10:01 AM
  #78
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Calgary wins

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Old
11-10-2012, 10:11 AM
  #79
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Calgary wins
In the long run but Van probably wins a cup and the oilers likely win a couple before it really pays off for the Flames

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11-10-2012, 11:40 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Flames rebuilder View Post
In the long run but Van probably wins a cup and the oilers likely win a couple before it really pays off for the Flames
In what way does it take awhile to pay off for the Flames?

Jarome Iginla: Calgary Flames NHL 82 32 35 67 43 -10
Jordan Eberle: Edmonton Oilers NHL 78 34 42 76 10 4

Flames get the best piece in the deal in both the present and future.

Meanwhile, in return, the Oilers get Roberto Luongo and Jay Bouwmeester who are historically a guaranteed ticket to playoff success and not at all overpaid. If the Oilers wanted either of those two they could be acquired using second tier pieces.

Better value can be found elsewhere if Eberle is being sent the other way.

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Old
11-10-2012, 11:46 AM
  #81
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It pays off in the long run because the rest of the prospects still need time to develope. Better value could be found yes, but you only fill one hole instead of two(Eberle for Yandle). This way you fill two hole, while keeping all your young depth players and your 1st.


Last edited by Flames rebuilder: 11-10-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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Old
11-10-2012, 11:58 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
In what way does it take awhile to pay off for the Flames?

Jarome Iginla: Calgary Flames NHL 82 32 35 67 43 -10
Jordan Eberle: Edmonton Oilers NHL 78 34 42 76 10 4

Flames get the best piece in the deal in both the present and future.

Meanwhile, in return, the Oilers get Roberto Luongo and Jay Bouwmeester who are historically a guaranteed ticket to playoff success and not at all overpaid. If the Oilers wanted either of those two they could be acquired using second tier pieces.

Better value can be found elsewhere if Eberle is being sent the other way.
True of one, not the other. And even Jay-Bo contributes for that cap hit, it's just too bad that Calgary's management was a three ring circus under Sutter. If anything, Eberle is just as curse as Bouwmeester...History says so at the NHL level.

And for the record, Iginla's 67 points aren't telling the whole story of what the guy contributes. Plus two 50 goal seasons...not something to just dismiss because Eberle has a better year. Also, leadership, grit, toughness, all the stuff this board seems to value over points.

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11-10-2012, 12:07 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
In what way does it take awhile to pay off for the Flames?

Jarome Iginla: Calgary Flames NHL 82 32 35 67 43 -10
Jordan Eberle: Edmonton Oilers NHL 78 34 42 76 10 4

Flames get the best piece in the deal in both the present and future.

Meanwhile, in return, the Oilers get Roberto Luongo and Jay Bouwmeester who are historically a guaranteed ticket to playoff success and not at all overpaid. If the Oilers wanted either of those two they could be acquired using second tier pieces.

Better value can be found elsewhere if Eberle is being sent the other way.
So you are saying Eberle is better than Iginla? I love Eberle and said I would take this deal but in no way is Eberle better than Iginla.

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Old
11-10-2012, 01:43 PM
  #84
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If I was making a cup run, right now, I'd rather have Iggy, for now. For the future, I'd much rather have Eberle. Only time will tell if Eberle can even come close to Iggy, career wise but he does have shot. The fact that he isn't dominating the AHL right now, kinda worries me but I'm sure he'll turn it around yet

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11-10-2012, 02:10 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RipsADrive View Post
In what way does it take awhile to pay off for the Flames?

Jarome Iginla: Calgary Flames NHL 82 32 35 67 43 -10
Jordan Eberle: Edmonton Oilers NHL 78 34 42 76 10 4

Flames get the best piece in the deal in both the present and future.

Meanwhile, in return, the Oilers get Roberto Luongo and Jay Bouwmeester who are historically a guaranteed ticket to playoff success and not at all overpaid. If the Oilers wanted either of those two they could be acquired using second tier pieces.

Better value can be found elsewhere if Eberle is being sent the other way.
Jordan Eberle: SH%: 18.9; on-ice SH%: 12.8; ozone start%: 60

Jarome Iginlia: SH% 12.7 (~career avg); on-ice SH%: 10.1; ozone start%: 50

For comparison of on-ice SH%, Henrik Sedin, one of the best playmakers in the league, has a career on-ice SH% hovering around 10-11% at even strength.

Basically all of these numbers are provided to indicate that a) Eberle was very lucky last season, and b) he was given significant offensive high ground in comparison to Iginla. Those point totals you're throwing out aren't directly comparable. Personal shooting percentage alone, if Iginla had been as lucky as Eberle, he'd have scored 47 goals.

And no, Eberle is not a 19% career shooter. Two types of players have percentages anywhere near that high: guys who exclusively shoot super high percentage shots (e.g. Alex Tanguay, Andrew Brunette) and elite shooters (e.g. Brett Hull, Ilya Kovalchuk, Steven Stamkos, Sydney Crosby). And even most elite shooters don't break 15-16% career.


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Old
11-10-2012, 02:37 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Jordan Eberle: SH%: 18.9; on-ice SH%: 12.8; ozone start%: 60

Jarome Iginlia: SH% 12.7 (~career avg); on-ice SH%: 10.1; ozone start%: 50

For comparison of on-ice SH%, Henrik Sedin, one of the best playmakers in the league, has a career on-ice SH% hovering around 10-11% at even strength.

Basically all of these numbers are provided to indicate that a) Eberle was very lucky last season, and b) he was given significant offensive high ground in comparison to Iginla. Those point totals you're throwing out aren't directly comparable. Personal shooting percentage alone, if Iginla had been as lucky as Eberle, he'd have scored 47 goals.

And no, Eberle is not a 19% career shooter. Two types of players have percentages anywhere near that high: guys who exclusively shoot super high percentage shots (e.g. Alex Tanguay, Andrew Brunette) and elite shooters (e.g. Brett Hull, Ilya Kovalchuk, Steven Stamkos, Sydney Crosby). And even most elite shooters don't break 15-16% career.
Why are you talking about Iginla / Sedin's SH%? Eberle is a much better finisher in front of the net than both. In fact, he's top5 in the league in that department.

He does fit into one of your groups - the one with guys who exclusively shoot super high percentage shots. The volume of shots he takes is pretty low.

For those two reasons, he has a high SH%. It will likely regress but not to the level that you assume. Furthermore, taking his SH% and applying it to a volume shooter like Iginla to project Iginla's potential goals is one of the most egregious misuse of statistics I've ever seen on this site.

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Old
11-10-2012, 04:57 PM
  #87
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on-ice SH% is the entire team's SH% when that player is on the ice. It affects both goals and assists. Henrik Sedin is considered to be a player who perceptibly increases on-ice SH%, so I used him as an example. Just giving context to show that Eberle's totals are almost certainly inflated by luck.

Eberle is also not in the low volume shooter category that Tanguay and Brunette are. Both of those players averaged below 120 shots/season. Eberle was already up to 180 last season. That 180 shots puts him in the top 100 forwards for last season, while 120/season is more at the bottom end of the top 200 forwards; Eberle appears to be pretty average in the number of shots he takes, and unless you happen to have a shot chart of him for the season, I'm calling luck and expecting him to drop below 15%, at minimum, and probably closer to 12%. And I think it's ridiculous to call him a better finisher on any part of the ice than one of the best goal scorers of the past decade.

My argument in applying Eberle's SH% to Iginla is only there to illustrate how stupidly high Eberle's percentage is. That entire reply, in case you missed it, was pointing out the fact that you can't compare the point totals of the two players an pretend it's apples to apples. That's all. It's not meant to be a hard projection or anything else.

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Old
11-10-2012, 06:14 PM
  #88
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Bouwmeester, Luongo and Kassian for Eberle, Horcoff and Musil.. Hmmm. No thanks.

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11-11-2012, 12:08 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Flames rebuilder View Post
Don't forget about ditching Horcoff's gross contract! I first thought about Yakupov, but seemed like Eberle might fit better. I wouldn't want to give up Eberle either but honestly I think it makes your team more well rounded and better.
We get rid of Horcoff, but take on two other huge, bad contracts, all while ditching Eberle? This trade might make the Oilers better short term (marginally, still not a playoff team), but not long term. And the Oilers are building for the long term, in case you didn't know.

Plus, I wouldn't give a bag of pucks for Bouwmeester. The guy doesn't know how to win.

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11-11-2012, 12:17 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Why are you talking about Iginla / Sedin's SH%? Eberle is a much better finisher in front of the net than both. In fact, he's top5 in the league in that department.

He does fit into one of your groups - the one with guys who exclusively shoot super high percentage shots. The volume of shots he takes is pretty low.

For those two reasons, he has a high SH%. It will likely regress but not to the level that you assume. Furthermore, taking his SH% and applying it to a volume shooter like Iginla to project Iginla's potential goals is one of the most egregious misuse of statistics I've ever seen on this site.
Eberle is a great player but he is not top 5 anything yet.

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11-11-2012, 01:13 PM
  #91
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So Edmonton trades their upcoming talented players for players with huge contracts on the downside of their careers. This trade looks like it could happen if a Sutter was Edmonton's G.M.

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11-11-2012, 01:58 PM
  #92
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Eberle is a great player but he is not top 5 anything yet.
I said he's top 5 in finish in front of the net (and that alone).

I don't think that's incorrect.

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11-11-2012, 02:14 PM
  #93
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So you are saying Eberle is better than Iginla? I love Eberle and said I would take this deal but in no way is Eberle better than Iginla.
Well he's very clearly a better scorer at this point. More goals and more assists in fewer games... It's like arguing with a Colorado fan...

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11-11-2012, 03:35 PM
  #94
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Well he's very clearly a better scorer at this point. More goals and more assists in fewer games... It's like arguing with a Colorado fan...
Experience and leadership seem to count for nothing on these boards. I'm not trying to say that the kids aren't going to be great...but Eberle has yet to score 50 goals as the leagues fiercest powerforward and captain of a successful Flames team...twice.

I know Hall, and Eberle, and RNH, and Yakupov are all shiny and new, and yes, their potential is through the roof, but experience and proven play seem to count for nothing on these boards. In one season, a young player out scores another and all the sudden the older player is, hands down, less useful.

And sorry The Nuge, I've used you as an example when it is not just yourself thinking this way. It's the whole board it seems. You just had an example of this thinking, and I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of value or any other reason, but you did discount one of the better players of this generation.

As for the Colorado comment, I've actually not had a heated debate concerning trade value with...well any one sporting the Avalanche as their team.

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11-11-2012, 03:52 PM
  #95
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Experience and leadership seem to count for nothing on these boards. I'm not trying to say that the kids aren't going to be great...but Eberle has yet to score 50 goals as the leagues fiercest powerforward and captain of a successful Flames team...twice.

I know Hall, and Eberle, and RNH, and Yakupov are all shiny and new, and yes, their potential is through the roof, but experience and proven play seem to count for nothing on these boards. In one season, a young player out scores another and all the sudden the older player is, hands down, less useful.

And sorry The Nuge, I've used you as an example when it is not just yourself thinking this way. It's the whole board it seems. You just had an example of this thinking, and I'm not saying you're wrong in terms of value or any other reason, but you did discount one of the better players of this generation.

As for the Colorado comment, I've actually not had a heated debate concerning trade value with...well any one sporting the Avalanche as their team.
For the record, I wasn't saying Eberle is a better player than Iginla at this point. I was simply pointing out Eberle now appears to be the better scorer of the two to OP who said that Iginla is better in every way

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11-11-2012, 05:42 PM
  #96
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For the record, I wasn't saying Eberle is a better player than Iginla at this point. I was simply pointing out Eberle now appears to be the better scorer of the two to OP who said that Iginla is better in every way
Hey no no, I got that. It's more one crazy man ranting against society post then against your out of context remark. Nothing personal, and as I said, I wanted to, as much as possible citing your post, not single you out.

But again, two 50 goal seasons I think Eberle can do it, I'd just want to see it done before we try to make a comparison.

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11-11-2012, 06:09 PM
  #97
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For the record, I wasn't saying Eberle is a better player than Iginla at this point. I was simply pointing out Eberle now appears to be the better scorer of the two to OP who said that Iginla is better in every way
I didn't say that I said Iginla is the better player of the two.

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11-11-2012, 09:21 PM
  #98
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Meanwhile, in return, the Oilers get Roberto Luongo and Jay Bouwmeester who are historically a guaranteed ticket to playoff success and not at all overpaid.
Luongo has played more playoff games in the past 2 years than the Oilers' entire top 6 and starting goalie put together in their careers.

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11-11-2012, 09:21 PM
  #99
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oilers fans see eberle and put the blinders on. simple fact is this makes the oilers a much better team short term. why? they have a rediculous amount of offensive talent, and yes while losing the player with the most value in the deal, they gain a top pairing d-man and a solid top goaltender. hate to lose eberle and keeping in mind the next 15 years this isnt a good deal for the oilers, but in the short term it does make them a better team. i dont think they are good enough to make this deal though because it still dosent make them a contender, and really there would be no other reason to make a deal like this.

the canucks dont lose alot, luongo is basically deadweight to the canucks because they have imo a better goalie in sneider. while gaining iginla. this makes the canucks a better team in the short term as well

calgary, well they get eberle and its hard to complain about that. while losing iginla and bouwmeester makes calgary a worse team in the short term, its a solid deal to make keeping the future in mind.


honestly i dont think this is that bad of a proposal. of course im keeping in mind the 99% of three way deals that get proposed on this board are puketastic. this is one of the better ones when it comes to impact on the three teams, but of course that depends on how you look at it and what you feel is the best direction for each of these teams to go. i think vancouver wins this deal because how much they wanna believe different, iginla for luongo is crazy value compared to what they will end up getting for him. even if they have to give up kassian too.

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Old
11-11-2012, 09:22 PM
  #100
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Luongo has played more playoff games in the past 2 years than the Oilers' entire top 6 and starting goalie put together in their careers.
Zing.

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