HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VI: The "What Comes Before Square One?" Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-11-2012, 09:54 AM
  #626
Blackhawkswincup
Global Moderator
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 101,127
vCash: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHL and NHLPA are meeting this afternoon.



https://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/...30308818554881

Cooler heads prevailed. Fehr doesn't let the owners tactics bother him.
Cooler heads prevailed. Bettman doesn't let Fehr's tactics bother him

The NHLPA continued strategy of showing up late is not helping and the players should express concern that the Fehr's continue to use such bushleague tactics


Last edited by Blackhawkswincup: 11-11-2012 at 10:56 AM.
Blackhawkswincup is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 10:27 AM
  #627
DutchShamrock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Cooler heads prevailed. Bettman doesn't let Fehr's tactics bother him

The NHLPA continued stategy of showing up late is not helping and the players should express concern that the Fehr's continue to use such bushleague tactics
This is ridiculous. You are truly fishing if you think he is showing up late as a tactic and that it is compromising the process. Hmm, Bettman represents 30 owners and Fehr represents 700 players. Why would he ever get hung up prior to a meeting?

There is concrete history of the league hamstringing a union head but lets ignore their backdoor tactics and focus on being late.

DutchShamrock is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 10:49 AM
  #628
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,127
vCash: 500
I've been staying out of the "whose fault it is" debate for much of the last few weeks, but I'm now starting to read more of the "owners created the damn system - they can't control themselves - if they weren't such idiots, we wouldn't be in this situation - why should it be the players' problem" etc., etc. commentary again.

Let's be clear: this is a simplistic and naive view of the situation that quite frankly skims over the facts to justify a PA-friendly viewpoint.

It would hold a lot more water if all of the teams had the same financial resources. But they don't. Understand: James Dolan is ready to drop the puck tomorrow and would be happy to do so with the old deal in place, no problem. Why? Because his operation generates many multiples of revenue (and profit) above that of the weaker sisters outside the core northeast market. The cap as it existis is determined based off of a percentage of overall revenues and then divided such that the teams all carry the same burden. Those at the top could all very easily exceed that artificial cap number and be well UNDER 50% of the revenue that they generate individually. (Don't forget that the Rangers' payroll in the non-cap era was already over $76MM more than a decade ago!)

The moment that the ink is dry on a new CBA, the teams with the greater resources immediately go to work figuring out how they can bring their economic advantages to bear to field a more competitive team under the new rules. (Heck, we just saw this very phenomenon take place within the first year of the new NBA CBA as Daryl Morey and others figured out that they could create poison pill contracts that actually used the bird rights rules against teams attempting to keep their own players.) Meanwhile, the players and their agents are all working 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, looking for the loopholes that they can exploit to increase their clients' - and their own - take. And guess what? All these highly paid specialists do eventually figure out how to work the system to their advantage.

This then puts the weaker sister teams in an untenable position. They can either compete on the same terms (and in so doing pay much MORE than 50% of their own revenues, to the point of operating at a net loss) to remain competitive or they can simply concede every season before it ever begins and operate in a state of perpetual youth movement as essentially farm clubs for the UFA market.

So, while there is plenty of blame to go around and there are plenty of unlikeable, disingenuous personalities on both sides and folks are completely justified in lambasting a) the owners for their ridiculous first offer, Bettman's inflammatory negotiating tactics, etc. and b) the PA for their failure to come to the table earlier, their inflexibility on current contracts, etc., can we please just drop the "it's the league's fault 'cause the owners should just stop handing out those contracts in the first place" fairy tale? It's utter BS. (And even if it wasn't, the implied solution would be collusion - which is, you know, illegal.)


Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 11-11-2012 at 11:02 AM.
BrooklynRangersFan is online now  
Old
11-11-2012, 10:54 AM
  #629
Jabroni
Moderator
The Corporate Mod
 
Jabroni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,543
vCash: 500
Hopefully no Jacobs, just the "Big 4".

Quote:
Louis Jean ‏@LouisJean_TVA
#NHL & #NHLPA will resume talks at some point this afternoon. Time has not yet been set. #CBA

Jabroni is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:07 PM
  #630
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,127
vCash: 500
Great blog by McKenzie on the negotiations. Just get him in the room as an arbitrator.

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/bob_mckenzie/?id=409277

BrooklynRangersFan is online now  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:07 PM
  #631
Brian Boyle
portnor, pls
 
Brian Boyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,629
vCash: 659
Good read from Bobby Mac
Quote:
Fehr is fond of saying, what possible reason would the players take what's on the table from the NHL. Less money, less contract rights, what's in it for the players? On one level, that's accurate, but on another the answer to what the players would get from this deal is simple: Paid. They might not get 100 per cent of what they believe they're entitled to, but if they keep going down this road, they're headed for 100 per cent of nothing. For many players, they've already decided to screw the math and take a stand on principle. For others, though, they'll be doing a calculation of the true cost to them and not what they would lose if they take a deal they don't like but what they'll get -- nothing -- if they don't make some sort of an agreement.

Brian Boyle is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:13 PM
  #632
NYRFAN218
Mac Truck
 
NYRFAN218's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,828
vCash: 500
Interesting that he notes that under the make whole offer from the NHL, the PA essentially gets 54.3% in year one and 51.7% in year two followed up by 50/50 the rest of the way. Plus they get the 2% interest on the money paid back under make whole. Where is the PA getting this $600 million number from? They made proposals based on growth but all of a sudden when the NHL makes a proposal that assumes growth to cover salaries by year 3 there's an issue.

__________________
http://hfboards.com/image.php?u=53946&type=sigpic&dateline=1320361610
NYRFAN218 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:46 PM
  #633
NYRFAN218
Mac Truck
 
NYRFAN218's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 11,828
vCash: 500
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Bargaining session in NYC began around 130 pm ET, according to NHLPA

NYRFAN218 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:49 PM
  #634
Jabroni
Moderator
The Corporate Mod
 
Jabroni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 6,543
vCash: 500
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Meeting between NHL, NHLPA is underway. Two sides back meeting at NHL offices again...no more Proskauer

Jabroni is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:54 PM
  #635
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Meeting between NHL, NHLPA is underway. Two sides back meeting at NHL offices again...no more Proskauer
this is IT!!!! Today the CBA will be finished, tomorrow both sides (players/owners) will ratify it, hockey starting this week (training camp)...regular season starts thanksgiving weekend! I just have a feeling!!!!

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 12:55 PM
  #636
trueblue9441
Registered User
 
trueblue9441's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bronx, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 3,400
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to trueblue9441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
this is IT!!!! Today the CBA will be finished, tomorrow both sides (players/owners) will ratify it, hockey starting this week (training camp)...regular season starts thanksgiving weekend! I just have a feeling!!!!
can i have some of what you're smoking?

trueblue9441 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:00 PM
  #637
Riche16
Pessimistic-Realist
 
Riche16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
this is IT!!!! Today the CBA will be finished, tomorrow both sides (players/owners) will ratify it, hockey starting this week (training camp)...regular season starts thanksgiving weekend! I just have a feeling!!!!
If these guys were smart this is exactly what would happen.

Obviously they're not smart... so there's NO way this happens.

They've not done nearly enough damage yet... but give it time.

Riche16 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:01 PM
  #638
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Quote:
Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
can i have some of what you're smoking?
lol i'm watching the giants game...mostly adrenaline from horrible playing right now...need to find a positive somewhere haha

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:07 PM
  #639
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
There's a big part of me that wants to see both sides get (boned in the arse). They think the increased revenue ofthe past can be counted on for the future. 3.2 billion blah blah blah. I'd love to see this end and have that # shrink to 1.2. The 57/43 that was fought over shrunk to the point where the 43% would have been Better for the owners at 3.2 than the 50/50 that they have after YET ANOTHER LOCK-OUT. The revenue increase the players are so counting on dries up to the point where their salaries drop year after year after year for the next 10 as soccer takes over as #4.

But the NYR win the cup 3 out of 4 seasons in a row. :-)
If the rangers win 3 cups in the next 4 seasons, the league will have incredible revenues, I guarantee it! New York will become a HUGE hockey city! HUGE!!!

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:29 PM
  #640
DutchShamrock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,964
vCash: 500
BRF, the blame on the last CBA is pretty much irrelevant going forward. But at the same time, this is something they really, really wanted. Then they say that its broken. Then they say they still want it, but it needs to change to get the smaller teams above water. They claw money back, but anyone can see that in 3-4 years the small teams are bleeding again.

Why don't the owners work towards a viable system? They are essentially making the rich teams richer and the small teams alive to fill the schedule out. The owners cooked the books before. Who's to say it is as bad as they claim. The players are saying if you want to prop up a broken system, why does it come out of our end? Why won't you even discuss new ideas? And they are still conceding despite the issues.

Blaming the players for these deals... I don't know. Sather grinds RFAs into submission. He gave one moderately back diving contract. And he has a prime contender. Owners invented the deals and gave them out to dodge cap hits. The players weren't pulling that cart, and a simple "no" to RFAs like Richards and Carter pretty much ends that issue. Where's their leverage to force the circumvention. No, thats all on Holmgren. Pronger? He negotiated years he never intended to play? Seguin was gonna go to the KHL if uberhawk Sinden didn't break the bank? On the verge of more stringent RFA/UFA rules and Sinden rushed to get Seguin's monster deal? This stuff just doesn't add up. Yeah, things need to get fixed, but to the extent owners are demanding? Back off the line already, its so over the top and that is why we are losing games. A moderate reform would address the issues, get some traction and start the season.

DutchShamrock is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:30 PM
  #641
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Tweeted by Jesse Spectore (@jessespector)
"Crowd boos 16-year-old video of Gary Bettman presenting Joe Sakic with the Conn Smythe Trophy."
This is at the Hockey Hall of Fame Inductions weekend, how sad, we all know they are booing Bettman, but I feel bad for Sakic to have to hear boos like that.

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:34 PM
  #642
Legend23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: New York
Posts: 190
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
If the rangers win 3 cups in the next 4 seasons, the league will have incredible revenues, I guarantee it! New York will become a HUGE hockey city! HUGE!!!
I'll take one Cup. No one wins 3 in 4 years anymore

Legend23 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:39 PM
  #643
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend23 View Post
I'll take one Cup. No one wins 3 in 4 years anymore
haha...I agree, it is highly unlikely they win 3 in the next 4 years, but IF it happened you would see insane record revenues

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:44 PM
  #644
Ryan McDonut
McD for Captain
 
Ryan McDonut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 3,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
Tweeted by Jesse Spectore (@jessespector)
"Crowd boos 16-year-old video of Gary Bettman presenting Joe Sakic with the Conn Smythe Trophy."
This is at the Hockey Hall of Fame Inductions weekend, how sad, we all know they are booing Bettman, but I feel bad for Sakic to have to hear boos like that.
i want bettman booed every time his name is even mentioned in public. he doesnt even have to be there

Ryan McDonut is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:46 PM
  #645
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan McDonut View Post
i want bettman booed every time his name is even mentioned in public. he doesnt even have to be there
I hope every game no matter where it is played starts chanting "FIRE BETTMAN!" or "BETTMAN SUCKS!!" or both!

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:47 PM
  #646
Riche16
Pessimistic-Realist
 
Riche16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
Tweeted by Jesse Spectore (@jessespector)
"Crowd boos 16-year-old video of Gary Bettman presenting Joe Sakic with the Conn Smythe Trophy."
This is at the Hockey Hall of Fame Inductions weekend, how sad, we all know they are booing Bettman, but I feel bad for Sakic to have to hear boos like that.
If he knows what's good for him he better not award The Cup in person again (if they ever play hockey).

Riche16 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:50 PM
  #647
Maineice11
Registered User
 
Maineice11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 6,366
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Maineice11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
If he knows what's good for him he better not award The Cup in person again (if they ever play hockey).
I would have to think enough owners are fed up with him and he would have to be gone after this lockout ends and passed to daly

Maineice11 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:52 PM
  #648
JeffMangum
Ra shi da
 
JeffMangum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Listening to music
Country: United States
Posts: 55,224
vCash: 300
Not really getting the Bettman hate. Guess the people need SOMETHING to ***** at.

I hate Fehr a whole lot more than Bettman, personally

JeffMangum is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:53 PM
  #649
Riche16
Pessimistic-Realist
 
Riche16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
I would have to think enough owners are fed up with him and he would have to be gone after this lockout ends and passed to daly
Why would the owners be fed up with him. He's gotten them everything they want. He's held the fans and the game hostage while doing it, but he's gotten it done. Record revenues, massive concessions from the players (more of which are coming), growth, etc.

To them he's amazing.

Riche16 is offline  
Old
11-11-2012, 01:53 PM
  #650
trueblue9441
Registered User
 
trueblue9441's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bronx, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 3,400
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to trueblue9441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan McDonut View Post
i want bettman booed every time his name is even mentioned in public. he doesnt even have to be there
and i want fehr burned at the stake

trueblue9441 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.