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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-07-2012, 05:28 PM
  #201
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You're conflating two entirely separate issues. The ticket tax is a contribution by Katz towards the capital costs of the building regardless of how much rent is charged.

Instead of charging him no rent, the City could be paying him 'eleventy billion' dollars to operate the arena and a ticket tax would still be a Katz Group contribution toward the capital costs of the building.

Also his competitors aren't limited to Northlands. People don't have unlimited budgets for entertainment and if arena event tickets prices (tax included) climb too high they will simply go to movies, non-arena concerts, etc, etc, instead.
So I guess Northlands is also contributing to the new arena , right? Heck, they could be contributing more than Katz (which wouldnt take much)

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11-10-2012, 10:03 PM
  #202
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What is the PST in Alberta? Can't the province use the PST on tickets and anything sold in the arenas and the income taxes on the players salaries to fund the arenas?

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Old
11-10-2012, 10:07 PM
  #203
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There is no PST in Alberta.

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Old
11-11-2012, 10:27 AM
  #204
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Money that could have otherwise gone to other infrastructure projects.

The province isnt paying for ****.
I'm hearing rumbling's that the city is in deep financial trouble. Apparently Edmonton's debt of $2 Billion++ (over 100% of income and over $2500 per person) is one of the highest (if not the highest) in North America. But their debt is rated high because they have the backing of the Province.

The city may have to cut back some employees, claw back pensions etc. This will go over well as with the other hand they are handing Katz $400 million.

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11-11-2012, 10:35 AM
  #205
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I'm hearing rumbling's that the city is in deep financial trouble. Apparently Edmonton's debt of $2 Billion++ (over 100% of income and over $2500 per person) is one of the highest (if not the highest) in North America. But their debt is rated high because they have the backing of the Province.

The city may have to cut back some employees, claw back pensions etc. This will go over well as with the other hand they are handing Katz $400 million.
Eh. Calgary has an even higher debt and higher per capita owing. Seems to be par for the course that the cities will try and spend there way out of the recession.


TLDR; city is not in financial trouble, it's par or slightly better when compared with other, similar, cities.

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Old
11-11-2012, 01:33 PM
  #206
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So I guess Northlands is also contributing to the new arena , right? Heck, they could be contributing more than Katz (which wouldnt take much)
Northlands has NEVER put in a single dime to any single endeavour they've been involved in - it's 100% taxpayer paid 100% of the time.

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11-11-2012, 02:05 PM
  #207
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Northlands has NEVER put in a single dime to any single endeavour they've been involved in - it's 100% taxpayer paid 100% of the time.
Yeah but there not a for profit enterprise either. Their"profits" are poured back into the community.
But its clear you missed my point. If one is going to characterize the ticket tax as a contribution by Katz( a joke, but hey grab on to whatever you can), I guess the ticket tax that Katz insisted also be imposed on Northlands, is a contribution by Nortlands to the new Arena.

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11-11-2012, 02:42 PM
  #208
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Yeah but there not a for profit enterprise either. Their"profits" are poured back into the community.
But its clear you missed my point. If one is going to characterize the ticket tax as a contribution by Katz( a joke, but hey grab on to whatever you can), I guess the ticket tax that Katz insisted also be imposed on Northlands, is a contribution by Nortlands to the new Arena.
Profits are calculated after their management get paid. Anyone know how much they pay their big wigs?

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11-11-2012, 03:21 PM
  #209
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Profits are calculated after their management get paid. Anyone know how much they pay their big wigs?
im guessing more then the canadian average of 50ish thousand. Since its the rule to hate rich people in Edmonton does everyone hate northlands now knowing their execs are the dreaded 1%

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11-11-2012, 03:40 PM
  #210
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I wish the city would somehow take over Northlands and control it at its whim. If not, then end the relationship. We're the ones paying for it anyway, but we have limited actual control.

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11-11-2012, 03:48 PM
  #211
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im guessing more then the canadian average of 50ish thousand. Since its the rule to hate rich people in Edmonton does everyone hate northlands now knowing their execs are the dreaded 1%
I really dunno why you say this. I dont see Canadians as hating rich people. Not at all. Certainly not in this instance anyway.

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11-11-2012, 03:50 PM
  #212
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I wish the city would somehow take over Northlands and control it at its whim. If not, then end the relationship. We're the ones paying for it anyway, but we have limited actual control.
Please enlighten the masses as to what heinous acts Northlands has done that you'd want the City to take them over. And then who would run the various operations they do?

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11-11-2012, 05:45 PM
  #213
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Please enlighten the masses as to what heinous acts Northlands has done that you'd want the City to take them over. And then who would run the various operations they do?
An organization that receives so much of the city's money should be beholden to the city's best interests. I wasn't impressed with their act during the arena negotiations. As an aside, I'm not impressed with their running of K Days or the Indy.

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11-11-2012, 07:22 PM
  #214
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Profits are calculated after their management get paid. Anyone know how much they pay their big wigs?
Don't forget all the side businesses those honcho's run too. I wonder how many benefit from their "dealings" with Northlands?

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Old
11-11-2012, 08:34 PM
  #215
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Eh. Calgary has an even higher debt and higher per capita owing. Seems to be par for the course that the cities will try and spend there way out of the recession.


TLDR; city is not in financial trouble, it's par or slightly better when compared with other, similar, cities.
We're not in a recession here. We're in a boom here, with that established how bad will the city finances be when and if we actually are in a recession here?

Theres no excuse whatsoever to accrue significant civic debt in the middle of boomtimes. This is the gravy, not the leantimes. Normal thinking govts(Ok I'm stretching oxymoron here I realize) realize that boomtimes are the time to be saving some cash on the side for leantimes. Not spending it DURING a boom like drunken sailors.

Meanwhile my Property tax is announced to shoot up yet another 100bucks. This without even the arena being funded. This is top of several hundred bucks increases in Property taxes in recent years off a normal bungalow. This on top of astronomical increases in price of real estate, utilities etc.

Good thing we're in a boom. If it stops the city and a lot of dwelllars are in real trouble.

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11-11-2012, 08:46 PM
  #216
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We're not in a recession here. We're in a boom here, with that established how bad will the city finances be when and if we actually are in a recession here?

Theres no excuse whatsoever to accrue significant civic debt in the middle of boomtimes. This is the gravy, not the leantimes. Normal thinking govts(Ok I'm stretching oxymoron here I realize) realize that boomtimes are the time to be saving some cash on the side for leantimes. Not spending it DURING a boom like drunken sailors.

Meanwhile my Property tax is announced to shoot up yet another 100bucks. This without even the arena being funded. This is top of several hundred bucks increases in Property taxes in recent years off a normal bungalow. This on top of astronomical increases in price of real estate, utilities etc.

Good thing we're in a boom. If it stops the city and a lot of dwelllars are in real trouble.
So if my taxes go up (and they do) anyways every year. Why not have them go up for something that I could actually get behind. I live in a area of the city that recently replaced sidewalks and repaved streets, to which on top of my already enormous property taxes I have to pay $5000 in revitalization tax over 20 years. So if I'm getting screwed anyways, then build the frickin arena.

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Old
11-11-2012, 08:59 PM
  #217
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So if my taxes go up (and they do) anyways every year. Why not have them go up for something that I could actually get behind. I live in a area of the city that recently replaced sidewalks and repaved streets, to which on top of my already enormous property taxes I have to pay $5000 in revitalization tax over 20 years. So if I'm getting screwed anyways, then build the frickin arena.
Well, you make think that its normal that all associated housing expenses go up astronomically in what are supposed non inflationary times with low interest rates. But its not. The middle class consumer being screwed every way you look. Invest money, return is zero, but somehow with essential expenses exponentially rising and far outpacing average increases in income. At least in typical inflationary times investment accrual portfolios match increased outlay.

People have no idea whats coming down the pike. When the real estate bubble here bursts it'll be severe. People walking away from mortgages where they can't manage exorbitant property cost expenses and where principal owing is much greater than any equity.

This happened throughout the states. With much more realistic realestate pricepoints. People should seriously spend 300K on an average bungalow here on the prairies when it costs 12K more per year just for heating, utilities, property tax, insurance? This not even considering the mortgage?

Alberta is dreaming.

This is plain nuts. I can buy a house most anywhere in the States and live there off the grid if I wanted to. Not in some climate that requires extensive use of heating and electricity.

I feel sorry for any young people entering the real estate market and with hardly and possibility of ever establishing clear mortgage title.

Time to pack the bags soon.

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11-11-2012, 10:29 PM
  #218
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Don't forget all the side businesses those honcho's run too. I wonder how many benefit from their "dealings" with Northlands?
Well, how bout igve us some instances.
Cause we all kinda see Katz's buisness ethics (ie, non existant)

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11-11-2012, 10:30 PM
  #219
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An organization that receives so much of the city's money should be beholden to the city's best interests. I wasn't impressed with their act during the arena negotiations. As an aside, I'm not impressed with their running of K Days or the Indy.
Ok, Ill jump.
What exactly?

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11-11-2012, 10:40 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Well, you make think that its normal that all associated housing expenses go up astronomically in what are supposed non inflationary times with low interest rates. But its not. The middle class consumer being screwed every way you look. Invest money, return is zero, but somehow with essential expenses exponentially rising and far outpacing average increases in income. At least in typical inflationary times investment accrual portfolios match increased outlay.

People have no idea whats coming down the pike. When the real estate bubble here bursts it'll be severe. People walking away from mortgages where they can't manage exorbitant property cost expenses and where principal owing is much greater than any equity.

This happened throughout the states. With much more realistic realestate pricepoints. People should seriously spend 300K on an average bungalow here on the prairies when it costs 12K more per year just for heating, utilities, property tax, insurance? This not even considering the mortgage?

Alberta is dreaming.

This is plain nuts. I can buy a house most anywhere in the States and live there off the grid if I wanted to. Not in some climate that requires extensive use of heating and electricity.

I feel sorry for any young people entering the real estate market and with hardly and possibility of ever establishing clear mortgage title.

Time to pack the bags soon.
Housing markets are going to crash because in no way in hell is a house worth what it's being sold for today. This bubble needs to burst otherwise it'll just keep inflating and thus screwing over even more people. Yeah, it really sucks that people decided to buy houses that are really worth around $150k for $300k+. I guess all they can do is shrug their shoulders and say "Oops".

Taking a house and using it as some sort of investment vehicle is what brought us into this mess in the first place. Every other previous generation bought houses because they signified a place to live. Not some asset to flip in 5 years. Now the recent trend is abandoning mortgages once the principle exceeds the value. A true delusion of grandeur are the people who live cheque to cheque thinking a house is some sort of 5 year investment.

I laugh that you believe the US is somehow better off then we are. Have you been there lately? What you'll save in property taxes will be multiplied many times in the health costs alone. Let's not forget their toxic business culture and severely corrupt politicians that would make Italy red in the face.

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11-11-2012, 10:43 PM
  #221
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Ok, Ill jump.
What exactly?
Have you not paid attention to anything that has gone on in regards to Northlands over the last 4 years? Because then it would at least make sense as to why you're such a flag waver of theirs.

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11-12-2012, 02:59 AM
  #222
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Re: property taxes

Edmonton has some of the lowest property taxes of any major city in Canada. Only Calgary and Vancouver paid less per $1000 of home evaluation. Our tax levy is far lower than other cities, and we miss out on any possible civic funding that would come from paying PST.

You're only complaining because you're used to being one of the few exception for taxation rates in Canada. Given all Edmonton's financial outlay courtesy of its citizenry, it's asinine to suggest that a growing city of our size could ever hold off on raising taxes. We're fortunate that we're as well managed as we are--the City of Edmonton Corporation is the one of the most efficiently managed municipal corporations in Canada.

For more information, just have a look at this document http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.realpac..._report_fi.pdf which collected its data from municipalities themselves.

As you were.

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11-12-2012, 09:15 AM
  #223
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Housing markets are going to crash because in no way in hell is a house worth what it's being sold for today. This bubble needs to burst otherwise it'll just keep inflating and thus screwing over even more people. Yeah, it really sucks that people decided to buy houses that are really worth around $150k for $300k+. I guess all they can do is shrug their shoulders and say "Oops".
There is no such thing as "worth", 150K and 300K arent what they used to be. In the mid 70's houses were going for less than 30k but they're obviously worth more than that now. Inflation pushes value up over time as long as people can keep paying their mortgages and as long as their is work here that will remain true. The only real concerns are sharply rising interest rates which will make those mortgages harder to pay off or a collapse in oil prices. Real estate prices have stayed pretty stagnant for 5 years now, that is how the market is rebalancing itself here.

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11-12-2012, 09:21 AM
  #224
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Re: property taxes

Edmonton has some of the lowest property taxes of any major city in Canada. Only Calgary and Vancouver paid less per $1000 of home evaluation. Our tax levy is far lower than other cities, and we miss out on any possible civic funding that would come from paying PST.

You're only complaining because you're used to being one of the few exception for taxation rates in Canada. Given all Edmonton's financial outlay courtesy of its citizenry, it's asinine to suggest that a growing city of our size could ever hold off on raising taxes. We're fortunate that we're as well managed as we are--the City of Edmonton Corporation is the one of the most efficiently managed municipal corporations in Canada.

For more information, just have a look at this document http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.realpac..._report_fi.pdf which collected its data from municipalities themselves.

As you were.
Did you just say its "asinine" to ever expect our taxes to not be raised every single year?

It is more than obvious you either work for the city or are an elected official.

I challenge you to reveal your real identity here.

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11-12-2012, 09:58 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Housing markets are going to crash because in no way in hell is a house worth what it's being sold for today. This bubble needs to burst otherwise it'll just keep inflating and thus screwing over even more people. Yeah, it really sucks that people decided to buy houses that are really worth around $150k for $300k+. I guess all they can do is shrug their shoulders and say "Oops".

Taking a house and using it as some sort of investment vehicle is what brought us into this mess in the first place. Every other previous generation bought houses because they signified a place to live. Not some asset to flip in 5 years. Now the recent trend is abandoning mortgages once the principle exceeds the value. A true delusion of grandeur are the people who live cheque to cheque thinking a house is some sort of 5 year investment.

I laugh that you believe the US is somehow better off then we are. Have you been there lately? What you'll save in property taxes will be multiplied many times in the health costs alone. Let's not forget their toxic business culture and severely corrupt politicians that would make Italy red in the face.
I dont think housing prices are coming down any time soon. I paid just under 300K for my detached home and my mortgage payments are cheaper then renting a 3 bedroom townhome. Unless wages go down I don't think we'll see much of a drop in realestate prices, in saying that I dont see them rising anytime soon with the governments new mortgage rules. The younger generation is getting screwed and the majority will need help from relatives in some fashion (ex: staying at home and saving instead of renting, given down payment, etc..) to be able to afford a home.

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