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Who Makes the HHOF?

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:10 AM
  #76
Socratic Method Man
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post

The Sedins winning Art Ross trophies was just as much due to weaker overall competition in the scoring race and missed time to Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin as it is to them being legitimate scoring champs.
If the competition is too weak for the Sedins, doesn't that mean the Sedins are the best for that given period of time? And Crosby is not weak. Crosby is probably the best player of this generation. Ovechkin and Malkin are right behind him. And being able to withstand a physically demanding 82 game season is one factor of the contest.

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I'm not even an Ottawa fan, I dislike them as much as the next person.

The Sedins are not the 2 best players to ever wear a Canucks jersey.

Have you ever heard such players as Bure, Linden, Naslund?
You know what - nevermind. This tells me everything I need to know.

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11-11-2012, 03:12 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
I'm not even an Ottawa fan, I dislike them as much as the next person.

The Sedins are not the 2 best players to ever wear a Canucks jersey.

Have you ever heard such players as Bure, Linden, Naslund?

The Sedins winning Art Ross trophies was just as much due to weaker overall competition in the scoring race and missed time to Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin as it is to them being legitimate scoring champs.
Sorry but Linden and Naslund don't hold the sedins jock strap in achievements.

Bure is the only player who can be debated.

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11-11-2012, 03:16 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
Wow. Say Recchi is a compiler and people rebut with "1500 POINTS HES IN THE HALL." The Sedins both win the Art Ross, one is voted the League MVP, and one is voted by the players as Most Outstanding Player and they're "compilers."

Iginla is going to end up with ~1300 points and most people in this thread have him as a lock.
Recchi had some monster seasons, and a few cups, and was good into his 40s, mostly, 12th in career scoring. Henrik has about 750 points in about 900 games, at career ppg his pace it would take just under 1200 games to reach 1000 points, let`s say 75 point average for 4 seasons and it still takes him to about 1150 games. Since 1200 points is pretty much what it would take for a low goal, weaker playoff resume, guy to get in, he`d have to win a Conn Smythe, or play probably 1400ish games, and might still have to wait.

If Ovi plays the whole season he doesn`t win the Art Ross, and maybe not the Hart. Crosby had like 5 points in the first half of his last game(against the Islanders), what if he had 3 more.

I`d say they`re compilers the way Turgeon was a compiler. Good player for most of his career, had a few great seasons, but were never clearly very dominant.

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11-11-2012, 03:17 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
If the competition is too weak for the Sedins, doesn't that mean the Sedins are the best for that given period of time? And Crosby is not weak. Crosby is probably the best player of this generation. Ovechkin and Malkin are right behind him. And being able to withstand a physically demanding 82 game season is one factor of the contest.



You know what - nevermind. This tells me everything I need to know.
Ovechkin was suspended twice, too.

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:18 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Recchi had some monster seasons, and a few cups, and was good into his 40s, mostly, 12th in career scoring. Henrik has about 750 points in about 900 games, at career ppg his pace it would take just under 1200 games to reach 1000 points, let`s say 75 point average for 4 seasons and it still takes him to about 1150 games. Since 1200 points is pretty much what it would take for a low goal, weaker playoff resume, guy to get in, he`d have to win a Conn Smythe, or play probably 1400ish games, and might still have to wait.

If Ovi plays the whole season he doesn`t win the Art Ross, and maybe not the Hart. Crosby had like 5 points in the first half of his last game(against the Islanders), what if he had 3 more.

I`d say they`re compilers the way Turgeon was a compiler. Good player for most of his career, had a few great seasons, but were never clearly very dominant.
Going by that, you are saying the sedins were never clearly dominant.

I think you need to go back and look at those seasons, because other then crosby who was hurt, there was nobody close to the sedins at dominating games.

They were not some fluke out of nowhere, they just got better every year.

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11-11-2012, 03:24 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Sorry but Linden and Naslund don't hold the sedins jock strap in achievements.

Bure is the only player who can be debated.
Naslund has as many Pearson/Lindsay award and 1st team selections as the Sedin twins do combined. He finished 2nd, 2nd, 4th in scoring from 2002 to 2004. Over that three-year span, he was econd in goals and assists (behind the leaders by five and six, respectively) and led in points by thirty-six. The only players who could manage better PPG were Forsberg and Lemieux. Forsberg did not play in 2001-02, and played most of 2002-03 followed by half of 2003-04. Lemieux averaged less than half a season across all three. Iginla was the only player with a better GPG.

So yeah... Naslund is still ahead of the Sedins... combined.

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11-11-2012, 03:26 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
Going by that, you are saying the sedins were never clearly dominant.

I think you need to go back and look at those seasons, because other then crosby who was hurt, there was nobody close to the sedins at dominating games.

They were not some fluke out of nowhere, they just got better every year.
Elite, not dominant. Crosby has his defense. They played in a weak division, which adds a few points (5-10ish tops) but they were never clearly above the rest of the league.

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11-11-2012, 03:31 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Except they did all that in 2 seasons worth of time and have been pretty average for the rest of the careers.

Alfredsson has been far more consistent in his career and wasn't a late bloomer either. His playoff resume is also better than the Sedins.

I'm not saying the Sedins won't make but to say they are a maybe and that Alfredsson is a "No chance" is ridiculous to me.
Tim Thomas was a minor league goaltender without any affiliation with an NHL club until he was 31, and now he has two Vezinas, two firt-team selections, a Cup win, and a Conn Smythe, and is a complete lock for the HHOF. All it took was three seasons to change his career from "mediocre goalie" to "all-time great".

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11-11-2012, 04:58 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Elite, not dominant. Crosby has his defense. They played in a weak division, which adds a few points (5-10ish tops) but they were never clearly above the rest of the league.
Um.... during Henrik's MVP year Henrik would have been over a PPG had he never registered a single short handed or powerplay point... 83 even strength points in 82 games. Before that, the last player to score more than 80 even strength points in a season was Jagr in 98/99.

If that's not dominant I don't know what is

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11-11-2012, 06:34 AM
  #85
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Well, since Cam Neely is in....

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Old
11-11-2012, 09:06 AM
  #86
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Crosby - Possibly
Ovechkin - Possibly
Malkin - Possibly
Datsyuk - Probably
Stamkos - Too soon
St.Louis - Possibly
Selanne - Definitely
Iginla - Definitely
Alfredsson - Definitely
The Sedins - Possibly
Thornton - Possibly
Perry - Unlikely
Getzlaf - Unlikely

Brodeur - Definitely
Luongo - Possibly
Lundqvist - Possibly

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Old
11-11-2012, 12:36 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Um.... during Henrik's MVP year Henrik would have been over a PPG had he never registered a single short handed or powerplay point... 83 even strength points in 82 games. Before that, the last player to score more than 80 even strength points in a season was Jagr in 98/99.

If that's not dominant I don't know what is
Leading the league in scoring or ppg by a wide margin. One can make a case for Crosby being better due to superior defense and goalscoring, and Ovechkin for higher goal scoring, and ppg.

For a player to be dominant, they should be clearly the best in the league, not among the best. And a 112 point season, isn`t that impressive to propel a player into the hhof, unless he scores an obscene amount of goals, or wins the scoring race by 30+ points.

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11-11-2012, 01:45 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Leading the league in scoring or ppg by a wide margin. One can make a case for Crosby being better due to superior defense and goalscoring, and Ovechkin for higher goal scoring, and ppg.

For a player to be dominant, they should be clearly the best in the league, not among the best. And a 112 point season, isn`t that impressive to propel a player into the hhof, unless he scores an obscene amount of goals, or wins the scoring race by 30+ points.
Also, Sedins aren't even close to PPG players and likely won't finish above PPG players when there careers are finished, and they weren't good in the playoffs either. Other than them both having one 100 point season I don't believe they make the HHOF unless its weak.

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11-11-2012, 01:46 PM
  #89
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Leading the league in assists for 3 consecutive seasons is dominant.

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11-11-2012, 02:52 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Leading the league in scoring or ppg by a wide margin. One can make a case for Crosby being better due to superior defense and goalscoring, and Ovechkin for higher goal scoring, and ppg.

For a player to be dominant, they should be clearly the best in the league, not among the best. And a 112 point season, isn`t that impressive to propel a player into the hhof, unless he scores an obscene amount of goals, or wins the scoring race by 30+ points.
Henrik Sedin has lead the league in assists 3 years in a row. He is undeniably the best passer in the league. I think that is dominance. The only other players to have done this are Bobby Orr, Joe Thornton, and The Great One.

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11-11-2012, 02:56 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Henrik Sedin has lead the league in assists 3 years in a row. He is undeniably the best passer in the league. I think that is dominance. The only other players to have done this are Bobby Orr, Joe Thornton, and The Great One.
Mikita as well.

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11-11-2012, 04:51 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post

For a player to be dominant, they should be clearly the best in the league, not among the best.
I think I understand what you mean by "dominant".

The Sedins are the best passers in the league. But you DON'T mean "clearly the best in the league" in ONE aspect. You seem to be saying "clearly the best in the league" OVERALL. As in "the single best player in the league".

That is what you mean by dominant, isn't it.

For the last 5+ years, Crosby has been "clearly the best in the league". Although, Ovechkin has been right up there with him - so neither of them are "CLEARLY" "the best in the league". Before them, Lemieux was pretty phenomenal - I would say he was good enough to be CLEARLY the best in the league, without reasonable doubt. Before him, it was Gretzky.

So for the last 30 years, the only people who have been inducted into the Hall of Fame have been Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.

Huh? What's that? The HHOF doesn't use that rigid, obscure and convoluded definition of "dominant"???

Oh, nevermind then.

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11-11-2012, 04:58 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
And a 112 point season, isn`t that impressive to propel a player into the hhof,

Quote:
unless he scores an obscene amount of goals,
Daniel Sedin scored over 40 goals. But I assume your definition of "obscene" is more like 50, or probably 60 goals.

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or wins the scoring race by 30+ points.
Ok, I think I understand.

Guys, can we look back through the history of hockey, and find all the players who either scored 112+ points ALONG WITH an obscene amount of goals (60) (maybe 50)

OR

The guys who led the scoring race by 30 or more points?


All the guys who haven't met either of those two standards are frauds. We can burn their names from the HHOF records.

How many guys does that leave us with in the Hall?

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11-11-2012, 05:10 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I think I understand what you mean by "dominant".

The Sedins are the best passers in the league. But you DON'T mean "clearly the best in the league" in ONE aspect. You seem to be saying "clearly the best in the league" OVERALL. As in "the single best player in the league".

That is what you mean by dominant, isn't it.

For the last 5+ years, Crosby has been "clearly the best in the league". Although, Ovechkin has been right up there with him - so neither of them are "CLEARLY" "the best in the league". Before them, Lemieux was pretty phenomenal - I would say he was good enough to be CLEARLY the best in the league, without reasonable doubt. Before him, it was Gretzky.

So for the last 30 years, the only people who have been inducted into the Hall of Fame have been Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.

Huh? What's that? The HHOF doesn't use that rigid, obscure and convoluded definition of "dominant"???

Oh, nevermind then.
Well considering their case for the hall of fame is almost entirely based on their peak, one or two seasons, they would have to have been dominant.

If we have guys with .9ish ppg without strong defensive resumes, who haven't done much to seperate themselves at all, than no.

Adam Oates>>Sedin careerwise and skillwise and look how long it took him to get in, has stronger playoff stats too.

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11-11-2012, 05:31 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by VerySuperFamous View Post
Well considering their case for the hall of fame is almost entirely based on their peak, one or two seasons, they would have to have been dominant.

If we have guys with .9ish ppg without strong defensive resumes, who haven't done much to seperate themselves at all, than no.

Adam Oates>>Sedin careerwise and skillwise and look how long it took him to get in, has stronger playoff stats too.
Just to be clear, I didnt say the Sedins were locks to make the Hall. Actually I said "I definitely wouldn't call them locks".

I just think your argument in general is unconvincing - mainly because your criteria seems way too strict.

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11-11-2012, 05:34 PM
  #96
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Well my logic is if their main case to make the hall is a 2 year peak, it better be very good.

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11-11-2012, 06:11 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I think I understand what you mean by "dominant".

The Sedins are the best passers in the league. But you DON'T mean "clearly the best in the league" in ONE aspect. You seem to be saying "clearly the best in the league" OVERALL. As in "the single best player in the league".

That is what you mean by dominant, isn't it.

For the last 5+ years, Crosby has been "clearly the best in the league". Although, Ovechkin has been right up there with him - so neither of them are "CLEARLY" "the best in the league". Before them, Lemieux was pretty phenomenal - I would say he was good enough to be CLEARLY the best in the league, without reasonable doubt. Before him, it was Gretzky.

So for the last 30 years, the only people who have been inducted into the Hall of Fame have been Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.

Huh? What's that? The HHOF doesn't use that rigid, obscure and convoluded definition of "dominant"???

Oh, nevermind then.
You forgot Jagr and Hasek. They both dominated as well for a long stretch, not just 2 seasons of being among the best.

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Old
11-11-2012, 06:11 PM
  #98
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Anyone who calls the Sedins locks are confused about the definition of a lock.


Ovechkin might not even be a lock.

If the Sedins decide to retire during this lockout and become farmers, or suffer horrible injuries in some sort of accident, they won't automatically make the hall.

If Jaromir Jagr decides to retire during this lockout and become a Buddhist monk, he goes into the hall over anyone and everyone eligible in his year.

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11-11-2012, 06:18 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Between them:

1 Hart Trophy
2 Art Ross Trophies
1 Ted Lindsay Trophy
Cup Run
Olympic Gold Medal
3 First All-Star Teams (2 Henrik, 1 Daniel)
1 Second All-Star Team (Daniel)
I heard they do HoF stats by combining player's awards.

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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Not to mention they are unquestionably the best players from their draft class.
Pretty irrelevant.


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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
In Henrik's case, he has captained the team to 2 consecutive Presidents' Trophies. He has also lead the league in assists 3 years in a row (and counting), something only 3 other players have ever done: Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, and Joe Thornton.
Ok.

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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
They are also the most successful twins in hockey history and I doubt we will ever see two identical brothers play on the same team, same line, and accomplish the things the Sedins have ever again.
Because they had a lot of competition in that respect, right?

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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
And on top of all that, they are still in the prime of their careers and still have many more seasons ahead of them due to their playing style.
You don't qualify someone as a lock based on future performance. That's not how it works.

If a player is a lock, then he's a lock RIGHT NOW.

If you think that player will become a lock by the end of his career, then you call him a "probable".

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11-11-2012, 07:04 PM
  #100
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I don't have a crystal ball or anything, but the idea that Ovechkin isn't going to make the hall of fame is absolutely ridiculous. Even if he retired today he would still get in.

ex: Bure got in this year, Ovechkin has had a better career to date. He wouldn't necessarily be first ballot, but looking at who would be eligible I think he'd have a solid chance.

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