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A Bad Lawyer Can Drag A Case For Years, A Good Lawyer Even Longer (CBA/Lockout) XXVI

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:49 PM
  #26
HockeyCrazed101
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Originally Posted by Kevin27NYI View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but if there were that many players that would accept the deal, wouldn't the deal be accepted? Don is there just to advise and speak for them. If they want it then they get it.
Not necessarily. A proposal has to be approved by the executive committee in order for it to get to a vote with the rest of the players. As long as the executive committee has enough votes to back Fehr, then the proposals never get to a vote with the rest of the union members. It has a similar undertone to how the voting structure is arranged with the owners and Bettman.

Just skimming this thread and with people talking about when games in December will be cancelled, I'm assuming talks didn't go well today?

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11-11-2012, 05:50 PM
  #27
jeety mcjeet
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Forget Fehr. The deal has been put out there publically, and the players should know about it if Fehr is being upfront. So over/under
Secret ballot? If we're forgetting about Fehr let's also forget about the venomous atmosphere surrounding this offer and just look at it for what it is: a soft landing deal for the players. I'm leaving out the contract length stuff because I believe this is not a make or break issue for the NHL. The players would vote to play...IMO.

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11-11-2012, 05:51 PM
  #28
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Here's my take:

The owners have said they're willing to negotiate contract issues AFTER they agree on revenue and make-whole. Fehr's just trying to spin that into "they won't budge on contract restrictions". IMO, we'll end up with 50/50(more or less), owners get close to what they want they want with make whole but only because they'll take away some contract restrictions, which makes it seem like they're making concessions. I don't think they care about contract restrictions that much, the only one they really want is the one that restricts back-diving deals. We'll see, but I think this is close to being done even though it doesn't look like it. I hope I'm right, but I'm prepared for the worst.

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11-11-2012, 05:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
Secret ballot? If we're forgetting about Fehr let's also forget about the venomous atmosphere surrounding this offer and just look at it for what it is: a soft landing deal for the players. I'm leaving out the contract length stuff because I believe this is not a make or break issue for the NHL. The players would vote to play...IMO.
Agreed. Aside from the players that are actually in the negotiations, I bet you that at least 75% of players would accept a deal if it was put to a secret ballot.

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11-11-2012, 05:54 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
People feel better when they have someone to hate directly.t
I guess that explains the hate campaign against Bettman.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...2018--nhl.html

They're the ones that seem desperate to play again, while the NHL's players support Fehr, allow their anger with Bettman to fortify their spirit and continue to find work in Europe to subsidize the loss of their NHL wages

All that Bettman hate makes them so much easier to manipulate as Damien Cox said in his tweet.
Damien Cox ‏@DamoSpin
I really feel for NHL players. Once again, they seem oblivious to what is happening to them. They really think Bettman is the problem.

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11-11-2012, 05:55 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I guess that explains the hate campaign against Bettman.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...2018--nhl.html

They're the ones that seem desperate to play again, while the NHL's players support Fehr, allow their anger with Bettman to fortify their spirit and continue to find work in Europe to subsidize the loss of their NHL wages

All that Bettman hate makes them so much easier to manipulate as Damien Cox said in his tweet.
Damien Cox ‏@DamoSpin
I really feel for NHL players. Once again, they seem oblivious to what is happening to them. They really think Bettman is the problem.
You really need to open your eyes if you think the PA is a bigger evil than the NHL here

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11-11-2012, 05:56 PM
  #32
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Sorry if it's been covered, but among the NHL concessions listed by Lavoie is "increased playoff pool." Whassat?

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11-11-2012, 05:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Just skimming this thread and with people talking about when games in December will be cancelled, I'm assuming talks didn't go well today?
The meeting didn't last very long at all and I don't believe Bettman even showed up. There are also no concrete plans to meet again.

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11-11-2012, 05:57 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
You really need to open your eyes if you think the PA is a bigger evil than the NHL here
They are.

The NHL is willing to negotiate and give concessions and the NHLPA is just flat our stonewalling it.

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11-11-2012, 06:01 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
What fantasy land do you live in most labor negotiations are decidedly one sided. Lockouts and strikes happen because one side feels they are not being treated fairly. Settlements are usually greatly in favor of the side that feel they are not being treated fairly.


The reality is the NHL makes the least revenue and profit of the major sports leagues yet the players have had the best deal and will still have the best deal even if they totally cave to all the owners demands.
I wasn't saying that they were meeting in the middle, all of these are in NHL's favour. What I'm saying is.. I feel like that NHLPA has to hold firm on a few things (such as player contract rights and revenue sharing).

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11-11-2012, 06:01 PM
  #36
jeety mcjeet
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
You really need to open your eyes if you think the PA is a bigger evil than the NHL here
They're both evil in their own way although I don't think that's the correct word to use here. One of them just happened to choose Thelma and Louise as their negotiators...

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11-11-2012, 06:03 PM
  #37
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If 75% of the players would vote to accept the deal against their executive committees recommendation, then we'd have a deal. Obviously they dont think its the owners best offer yet.

Over under on owners who would accept Fehr's offer to get back to playing now : 50%. But majority rule doesnt apply to the owners does it.

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11-11-2012, 06:03 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
You really need to open your eyes if you think the PA is a bigger evil than the NHL here

How anyone still believes this blows my mind......

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11-11-2012, 06:04 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
They are.

The NHL is willing to negotiate and give concessions and the NHLPA is just flat our stonewalling it.
they are the bigger devil, but the NHL needs to lighten up a little with the contract restrictions. should there be a limit on length of contract? yes, but not 5 years. they need to give back a little bit more. keep ufa status the same.

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11-11-2012, 06:04 PM
  #40
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If the CBA isnt resolved by the time of the draft, does this have any implications?

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11-11-2012, 06:05 PM
  #41
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Neither side is evil. They're negotiation involves something is way too unimportant to be worthy of that title.

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11-11-2012, 06:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
they are the bigger devil, but the NHL needs to lighten up a little with the contract restrictions. should there be a limit on length of contract? yes, but not 5 years. they need to give back a little bit more. keep ufa status the same.

Personally I would want it the other way around. Have whatever length contract you want but UFA at 10 years of service.

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Old
11-11-2012, 06:06 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by trueblue9441 View Post
they are the bigger devil, but the NHL needs to lighten up a little with the contract restrictions. should there be a limit on length of contract? yes, but not 5 years. they need to give back a little bit more. keep ufa status the same.
I agree that they should let up on that and UFA service but they've given a lot elsewhere.

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11-11-2012, 06:06 PM
  #44
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If the CBA isnt resolved by the time of the draft, does this have any implications?
No, hockey is just a game. It really doesn't affect anything in the real world, or hasn't since 1972.

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11-11-2012, 06:08 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Kevin27NYI View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but if there were that many players that would accept the deal, wouldn't the deal be accepted? Don is there just to advise and speak for them. If they want it then they get it.
No. Negotiating team has to give it to the reps who, if they agree, would give it to the players.

If you had a flat up and down vote on proposals you'd never accomplish anything because most of them would pass.

I would think around 70/30 now, but the 30 is who "matters" to the union. Keep in mind I think 18% voted to reject the 2005 CBA? That was after a year.

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11-11-2012, 06:09 PM
  #46
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Sorry if it's been covered, but among the NHL concessions listed by Lavoie is "increased playoff pool." Whassat?
Players' get paid the same regardless of whether or not they make the playoffs. In other words if you signed a contract for 2 million. You'll make 2 million no matter what (escrow jokes not withstanding). However, there are small bonuses for making the playoffs that are outside the contract. This is the playoff pool (NHL funded). Players who lose in the first round split X amount among themselves. Players who lose in the second round split Z amount among themselves. All the way up to the champs who split something like a million dollars among themselves.

Its really not a lot of money, especially for none-stanley cup winners.

This is pretty universal among the four sports.

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11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
They are.

The NHL is willing to negotiate and give concessions and the NHLPA is just flat our stonewalling it.
How exactly is the NHL willing to negotiate. They're demanding an immediate drop to 50/50, won't move on the main contract restrictions and refuse (so far) to pay for the already existing contracts. Simply because they've showed up and have budged on minor details doesn't mean they're any more willing to negotiate than the PA is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeety mcjeet View Post
They're both evil in their own way although I don't think that's the correct word to use here.
And that's the point really... neither side here are angels but at the same time neither are devils either.

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Old
11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
  #48
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If the CBA isnt resolved by the time of the draft, does this have any implications?
no idea.

It could potentially go by the way the 2005 draft went.

That would be like so :


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11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
  #49
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How anyone still believes this blows my mind......
Denial is a powerful thing. Not everybody can accept that the sport heroes they have doesn´t give a **** about the sport, just about the money they can earn.

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11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
  #50
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If 75% of the players would vote to accept the deal against their executive committees recommendation, then we'd have a deal. Obviously they dont think its the owners best offer yet.

Over under on owners who would accept Fehr's offer to get back to playing now : 50%. But majority rule doesnt apply to the owners does it.
They have to be GIVEN the proposal, that's the part you're not quite understanding. It doesn't matter what popular support would be unless they are given something. If the negotiating team isn't going to give anything to the reps, there is no potential for a vote. And since the reps work in tandem with the negotiating team, they would never send anything to a vote that the negotiating team doesn't want being sent to a vote.

So it doesn't MATTER if it would be a 2/3 - 3/4 majority. It's not going to be sent to vote and would not without a coup.

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