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Hamilton or Toronto2/Markham

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Hamilton 107 47.56%
GTA2/Markham 118 52.44%
Voters: 225. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-09-2012, 05:15 PM
  #251
Ryan34222
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Probably the same reason why the AHL team in Chicagoland is the Chicago Wolves and not the Rosemont Wolves. Because no one outside Rosemont cares about Rosemont.

If you're based in the outskirts of a major city, it'd be in your best interest to be named after that city. If Markham gets a team, only way that they're not named "Toronto" would be if the Leafs decided to lessen their indemnity demands for a new team (or stipulated that a new team couldn't be named after the city) as part of whatever agreement allowed them to move in in the first place.
and the other way the teams not named Toronto..

put it in Hamilton

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11-09-2012, 05:28 PM
  #252
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I guess Ryan is right because if a .500 record is considered good and playoff worthy then we got a problem...
Giants went 9-7 and won a SB.. what if the Argos win the Grey Cup...crap, be right back. i must break my fingers for typing such filth

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11-09-2012, 05:44 PM
  #253
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Giants went 9-7 and won a SB.. what if the Argos win the Grey Cup...crap, be right back. i must break my fingers for typing such filth
That's a winning record though. I don't even follow the CFL but this is why I hate football sometimes. Seattle pulled the same crap in the NFL a couple years back. Hockey's playoffs are too big but at least all the teams have winning records.

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11-09-2012, 05:49 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Markham could be more successful, it could also draw like the other teams in GTA not named Maple Leafs once the shine wore off.. and really the difference between the 2 wouldnt be that great..
You don't think that is a possibility for Hamilton either? Come on, the entire Golden Horseshoe is firmly Leafs territory. A team anywhere would be facing similar competition.

Quote:
the post you quoted was about where's the better location to serve Southern Ontario..
Last I checked, Toronto is in Southern Ontario.

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11-09-2012, 05:59 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post



Last I checked, Toronto is in Southern Ontario.
is this a Toronto Maple Leafs arent really a NHL team joke?

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11-09-2012, 06:00 PM
  #256
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That's a winning record though. I don't even follow the CFL but this is why I hate football sometimes. Seattle pulled the same crap in the NFL a couple years back. Hockey's playoffs are too big but at least all the teams have winning records.
so did Denver i believe 8-8..

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11-09-2012, 06:26 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
That's a winning record though. I don't even follow the CFL but this is why I hate football sometimes. Seattle pulled the same crap in the NFL a couple years back. Hockey's playoffs are too big but at least all the teams have winning records.
Last year LA had more losses than wins (40 wins vs 42 losses) and won the cup.

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11-09-2012, 06:46 PM
  #258
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Last year LA had more losses than wins (40 wins vs 42 losses) and won the cup.
Bush League

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11-09-2012, 06:54 PM
  #259
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Last year LA had more losses than wins (40 wins vs 42 losses) and won the cup.
Thanks for the info. I had no idea how they made the playoffs then. If you have a losing record = no playoffs. That should be the rule.

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11-09-2012, 07:05 PM
  #260
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Thanks for the info. I had no idea how they made the playoffs then. If you have a losing record = no playoffs. That should be the rule.
Well considering more than half the teams in the NHL make the playoffs, it is more likely that there will be a team that makes the playoffs with more losses than wins, as opposed to every team in the playoffs having a winning record.

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11-09-2012, 08:07 PM
  #261
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you are woefully uninformed about the current reality of both KW and the Hammer. it is laughable that anyone could possibly think that kw is a more viable NHL market than hamilton, today, tomorrow or the day after that.
Consider the 2006-11 intercensal population growth between the Hamilton-Burlington CMA and the Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo CMA.

From 2006-11, the Hamilton-Burlington CMA grew from 692,911 to 721,053, a growth of 4.1%. Most of that growth, of course, is attributable to Burlington, which is also considered to be a part of the GTA and is in that region in between Toronto city and Hamilton city.

From 2006-11, the Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo CMA grew from 451,253 to 477,160, a growth of 5.7%.

If you look at the Government of Ontario's population projections from the 2011-36 period, this difference in growth is expected to further diverge.
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/...s/projections/

Firstly, the Government of Ontario considers both the Hamilton CMA and the Kitchener CMA to be in Central Ontario.

With respect to Central Ontario, the Government of Ontario predicts that:

"The population of Central Ontario is projected to grow by 814,000 or 28.2 per cent, from 2.89 million in 2011 to 3.7 million in 2036. The region’s share of provincial population will decline slightly from 21.6 to 20.9 per cent."

So the entire region will grow, but it's population share will decline. This decline is almost entirely attributed to the projected growth of the GTA.

Within Central Ontario, the Government of Ontario further predicts that:

"Three census divisions surrounding the GTA will continue to experience population growth significantly above the provincial average; they are Simcoe at 42.7 per cent, Waterloo at 41.8 per cent and Dufferin at 34.3 per cent."

Do you notice the absence of Hamilton from this list? When you calculate the percentage of growth predicted in these three census divisions, it becomes apparent that the growth in absolute numbers in Central Ontario and the only thing forestalling a rapid decline in the population share of Central Ontario are these three census divisions.

In terms of an ideal location to serve Southern Ontario outside of the GTA, the Kitchener CMA is on the border of Central Ontario and Southwestern Ontario. It is in between Hamilton and London, two towns with not insignificant populations. Compared to Hamilton, the main disadvantage is that it cannot draw from the Niagara region. But really, that should be considered a positive point because it allows Kitchener to sidestep the whole concern of Buffalo and how it draws some of its fanbase from the adjacent Niagara region.

Of course, I am not saying that the KW region can support a team today. I'm saying that I'd prefer to put a team in Markham now, and if another team is needed in Southern Ontario, I'd wait a couple of decades and put it in the KW region. Of course, Mississauga would also be a more immediately available option.

Moreover, if we are talking about the OP's comparison between Hamilton and the GTA, the Government of Ontario further predicts that:

"Within the GTA, Toronto’s population is projected to rise from 2.74 million in 2011 to 3.42 million in 2036, an increase of 24.5 per cent, below the provincial growth rate of 32.7 per cent. Growth in the other census divisions of the GTA (Durham, Halton, Peel and York) will be significantly faster than the Ontario average, with the addition of over 2.1 million people to the suburban GTA."

Now, you can make race-based generalizations and say the "demographics" of York Region will not work out. This ignores the fact that, of course, in absolute numbers York Region has more white people than the Hamilton CMA. Moreover, a Markham team would be a "north of Toronto" team, and a "north of Toronto" team would encompass both York Region and Simcoe Region. If you refer back to the previous prediction about Central Ontario's growth, you will see that Simcoe Region is one of the few census divisions in Central Ontario that are expected to grow at a pace comparable to communities in the GTA. Simcoe Region, FYI, is north of Toronto; it borders York Region.


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11-09-2012, 09:31 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Thanks for the info. I had no idea how they made the playoffs then. If you have a losing record = no playoffs. That should be the rule.
I blame that point you get for OT/SO losses. But again, in 1991 the North Stars had a crappy season record and they didn't get OTL points, yet they still made it to 4th round and lost the cup in 6 games to Penguins and Mario Lemieux.

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11-10-2012, 04:16 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
you are woefully uninformed about the current reality of both KW and the Hammer. it is laughable that anyone could possibly think that kw is a more viable NHL market than hamilton, today, tomorrow or the day after that.
Well today is the day after you posted this. I could see how you would think Hamilton is a better market currently today, even tommorow as you mentioned. But in the future when Kitchener has an NHL arena (One that doesn't require so much in upgrades that it would almost be a new arena cost wise), it will absolutely be a better place.

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11-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #264
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Well today is the day after you posted this. I could see how you would think Hamilton is a better market currently today, even tommorow as you mentioned. But in the future when Kitchener has an NHL arena (One that doesn't require so much in upgrades that it would almost be a new arena cost wise), it will absolutely be a better place.
Definitely. And if you look at the state of their respective economies, it makes the case for K-W even better. It's not just about the population numbers, people need to have jobs and well-paying jobs.

Yeah, K-W took a bit of a hit with RIM issue, but other companies have been more than willing to leverage the engineers, math majors, comp sci. majors, etc. of the University of Waterloo. Google opened one of its largest (I think the largest) office outside of the US in the K-W area. There are tons of start-ups (RIM itself was a UW start-up) in the area. Technology campuses, etc.

You've got the University of Waterloo, Wilfred Laurier University, and Conestoga College. Then you have RIM, Google and a slew of other tech companies.

I think K-W is just a great place overall. Waterloo has the transient student population, Kitchener is the more urban center, and Cambridge is the more blue collar working class area. It makes for a pretty great environment for everyone.

To say that I'm "woefully" uninformed is a bit much. And if you don't trust the Government of Ontario's population projections and what not, there are other sources that back it up, too -- including municipal sources from both towns.

Hamilton is well-positioned to turn things around because of its proximity to Toronto. It needs to integrate better, and I think the province is using Metrolinx to further that objective.

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11-11-2012, 03:55 PM
  #265
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There where rumors durring one of Basillies attempts at an NHL. team that he had bought a big chunk of land in Camibridge to bulid a new arena on . Hamilton & the Kitchener \ Waterloo area are the best places to put a regional NHL. team because of its easy accessbillity to the rest of southern ontario .

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11-11-2012, 05:15 PM
  #266
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Definitely.
Hamilton is well-positioned to turn things around because of its proximity to Toronto. It needs to integrate better, and I think the province is using Metrolinx to further that objective.
Hamilton to Toronto 1 hr.. Kitchener to Toronto 1.25 hrs.. Is that 15 minutes keeping Kitchener out of Toronto's proximity of greatness or justcant help but give Hammer the back handed compliment?

Honest question, but what has Hamilton benefited from being so close to Toronto?

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11-11-2012, 06:33 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Hamilton to Toronto 1 hr.. Kitchener to Toronto 1.25 hrs.. Is that 15 minutes keeping Kitchener out of Toronto's proximity of greatness or justcant help but give Hammer the back handed compliment?

Honest question, but what has Hamilton benefited from being so close to Toronto?
Not becoming a ghost town. If not for Toronto, Hamilton would be the size of Sudbury but a little dirtier.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1053652AAcrVhO

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11-11-2012, 07:18 PM
  #268
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Not becoming a ghost town. If not for Toronto, Hamilton would be the size of Sudbury but a little dirtier.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1053652AAcrVhO
Never met a group of people so obsessed with a downtown as Torontonians..

If it keeps you all out my beautiful city.. Keep on believin its a sewer.

http://argos-suck.com/history/hamilt...y-and-rivalry/

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11-12-2012, 06:11 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Hamilton to Toronto 1 hr.. Kitchener to Toronto 1.25 hrs.. Is that 15 minutes keeping Kitchener out of Toronto's proximity of greatness or justcant help but give Hammer the back handed compliment?

Honest question, but what has Hamilton benefited from being so close to Toronto?
While the distances from Toronto may be approximately similar, the directions are different. The rapid growth in the Peel and Halton regional municipalities has allowed for a continuous urban agglomeration between Toronto and Hamilton. It has offered greater opportunity for integration into the GTA.

Ultimately, Hamilton is a lot like other rust-belt cities. It is similar to Buffalo and Cleveland. By having greater integration with the GTA, even if it is just the western portions of the GTA, it has greater possibility for economic rejuvenation. The steel mills will not carry Hamilton into modernity when it comes to the economy. Just like GM will not carry Oshawa into modernity.

KW is in a different direction, and while there are towns on the way from Mississauga to KW, there is no continuous urban agglomeration like the one forming between the GTA and Hamilton. As a result, KW is seen as being more independent of the GTA. Obviously, it still benefits tremendously from being in the greater Golden Horseshoe region, which is anchored by Toronto. But no municipal councilors speak of a GTKWA; they speak of a GTHA, because of the slightly closer proximity but especially because of the urban growth areas that have formed in between Toronto and Hamilton.

Also, economically, KW is trying to become an innovation economy. It is internationally recognized as an important economic cluster. The government, the universities, start-up companies, and established technology companies have based themselves there. By establishing themselves in the same region, they have a synergistic effect on one another. Overall, the Canadian economy is lacking when it comes to having a modern, innovation-focused economy -- there's a greater focus on natural resources and manufacturing. But KW, along with Toronto and Ottawa, are bright spots in that regard within Ontario.

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11-12-2012, 06:53 AM
  #270
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While the distances from Toronto may be approximately similar, the directions are different. The rapid growth in the Peel and Halton regional municipalities has allowed for a continuous urban agglomeration between Toronto and Hamilton. It has offered greater opportunity for integration into the GTA.

Ultimately, Hamilton is a lot like other rust-belt cities. It is similar to Buffalo and Cleveland. By having greater integration with the GTA, even if it is just the western portions of the GTA, it has greater possibility for economic rejuvenation. The steel mills will not carry Hamilton into modernity when it comes to the economy. Just like GM will not carry Oshawa into modernity.

KW is in a different direction, and while there are towns on the way from Mississauga to KW, there is no continuous urban agglomeration like the one forming between the GTA and Hamilton. As a result, KW is seen as being more independent of the GTA. Obviously, it still benefits tremendously from being in the greater Golden Horseshoe region, which is anchored by Toronto. But no municipal councilors speak of a GTKWA; they speak of a GTHA, because of the slightly closer proximity but especially because of the urban growth areas that have formed in between Toronto and Hamilton.

Also, economically, KW is trying to become an innovation economy. It is internationally recognized as an important economic cluster. The government, the universities, start-up companies, and established technology companies have based themselves there. By establishing themselves in the same region, they have a synergistic effect on one another. Overall, the Canadian economy is lacking when it comes to having a modern, innovation-focused economy -- there's a greater focus on natural resources and manufacturing. But KW, along with Toronto and Ottawa, are bright spots in that regard within Ontario.
Uh huh..
Hamilton can't win.. As it reinvents itself, Toronto will still claim credit right?

Bright spots in mfg and natural resources you say, but Hamiltons not? http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/science/story/3522


Last edited by Ryan34222: 11-12-2012 at 06:59 AM.
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11-12-2012, 10:05 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Consider the 2006-11 intercensal population growth between the Hamilton-Burlington CMA and the Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo CMA.

From 2006-11, the Hamilton-Burlington CMA grew from 692,911 to 721,053, a growth of 4.1%. Most of that growth, of course, is attributable to Burlington, which is also considered to be a part of the GTA and is in that region in between Toronto city and Hamilton city.

From 2006-11, the Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo CMA grew from 451,253 to 477,160, a growth of 5.7%.

If you look at the Government of Ontario's population projections from the 2011-36 period, this difference in growth is expected to further diverge.
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/...s/projections/

Firstly, the Government of Ontario considers both the Hamilton CMA and the Kitchener CMA to be in Central Ontario.

With respect to Central Ontario, the Government of Ontario predicts that:

"The population of Central Ontario is projected to grow by 814,000 or 28.2 per cent, from 2.89 million in 2011 to 3.7 million in 2036. The region’s share of provincial population will decline slightly from 21.6 to 20.9 per cent."

So the entire region will grow, but it's population share will decline. This decline is almost entirely attributed to the projected growth of the GTA.

Within Central Ontario, the Government of Ontario further predicts that:

"Three census divisions surrounding the GTA will continue to experience population growth significantly above the provincial average; they are Simcoe at 42.7 per cent, Waterloo at 41.8 per cent and Dufferin at 34.3 per cent."

Do you notice the absence of Hamilton from this list? When you calculate the percentage of growth predicted in these three census divisions, it becomes apparent that the growth in absolute numbers in Central Ontario and the only thing forestalling a rapid decline in the population share of Central Ontario are these three census divisions.

In terms of an ideal location to serve Southern Ontario outside of the GTA, the Kitchener CMA is on the border of Central Ontario and Southwestern Ontario. It is in between Hamilton and London, two towns with not insignificant populations. Compared to Hamilton, the main disadvantage is that it cannot draw from the Niagara region. But really, that should be considered a positive point because it allows Kitchener to sidestep the whole concern of Buffalo and how it draws some of its fanbase from the adjacent Niagara region.

Of course, I am not saying that the KW region can support a team today. I'm saying that I'd prefer to put a team in Markham now, and if another team is needed in Southern Ontario, I'd wait a couple of decades and put it in the KW region. Of course, Mississauga would also be a more immediately available option.

Moreover, if we are talking about the OP's comparison between Hamilton and the GTA, the Government of Ontario further predicts that:

"Within the GTA, Toronto’s population is projected to rise from 2.74 million in 2011 to 3.42 million in 2036, an increase of 24.5 per cent, below the provincial growth rate of 32.7 per cent. Growth in the other census divisions of the GTA (Durham, Halton, Peel and York) will be significantly faster than the Ontario average, with the addition of over 2.1 million people to the suburban GTA."

Now, you can make race-based generalizations and say the "demographics" of York Region will not work out. This ignores the fact that, of course, in absolute numbers York Region has more white people than the Hamilton CMA. Moreover, a Markham team would be a "north of Toronto" team, and a "north of Toronto" team would encompass both York Region and Simcoe Region. If you refer back to the previous prediction about Central Ontario's growth, you will see that Simcoe Region is one of the few census divisions in Central Ontario that are expected to grow at a pace comparable to communities in the GTA. Simcoe Region, FYI, is north of Toronto; it borders York Region.
lots of numbers here. yes, most people here are familiar with the places to grow mandate and yes, some areas are being forced to grow more than others .... but ...

1) you assume that population growth is all good. well, it is not. indeed, forced growth is very dangerous. opponents of places to grow correctly raise concerns about tenuous financing structures which will need to pay for forced infrastructure. existing property tax revenues cannot support these new expenses, the province has not been terribly generous, and forget about local industry tax revenue ... cities will be handing out incentive cash for decades to lure businesses into their regions, so gone are the days of healthy, mixed regional revenue sources. the game has now irreversibly changed when it comes to municipal financing.

currently, guelph is also being forced to grow well above its capacity and it is actually considering closing some pools and draining fountains because it simply cannot afford to build the sewers and roads it is being ordered to build by the province today. insanity on guelph council aside, things will only get worse. dont expect that KW or milton or any other place near the top of the growth rate chart will be able to afford even basic services, let alone chip in for a new NHL arena. it just wont happen. kw will be hard pressed to keep up with the costs of growth and it wont have a few hundred million laying around to buy a new arena. (as well, consider that it is k and w, two jurisdictions, ripe for contentious disagreement)

2) your numbers incorrectly assume comparability between regions with respect to mobility. KW does not, nor ever will have a dense urban core like the hammer. that's not the way that city evolved, nor is it the plan. KW is sprawl. moreover, KW is surrounded by smaller quaint hamlets, literally out in farmers fields. true, some will be swallowed by sprawl, but it is silly to think that folks in the golden triangle (kw, camb and guelph) are equally mobile to an arena in KW compared to folks in the GHA and Copps.

bet you dollars to donuts that someone in guelph would be no more likely to attend a game in KW than to attend one in the hammer ... ie., not that likely, especially in winter. so, you can take the forecast population numbers and immediately cut them in half because that many people are so far away from the urban core (or wherever an area might be built) that they are very unlikely to attend games. hamilton, on the other hand is already dense. and a much higher proportion of residents are within 25 minutes drive of Copps than will ever be within similar driving distance from any KW arena, despite growth figures.

and 3) you touch on demographics, but I think you fail to recognize the rabid interest folks in the hammer have in getting an NHL team. it will sell out just as fast as winnipeg (in fact, it has already). no such guarantee would exist in kw, especially if you assume it would draw from much further, inconvenient driving distances in surrounding areas. you think toronto is boringly conservative? kw is ten times that boring.

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11-12-2012, 11:14 AM
  #272
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lots of numbers here. yes, most people here are familiar with the places to grow mandate and yes, some areas are being forced to grow more than others .... but ...

1) you assume that population growth is all good. well, it is not. indeed, forced growth is very dangerous. opponents of places to grow correctly raise concerns about tenuous financing structures which will need to pay for forced infrastructure. existing property tax revenues cannot support these new expenses, the province has not been terribly generous, and forget about local industry tax revenue ... cities will be handing out incentive cash for decades to lure businesses into their regions, so gone are the days of healthy, mixed regional revenue sources. the game has now irreversibly changed when it comes to municipal financing.

currently, guelph is also being forced to grow well above its capacity and it is actually considering closing some pools and draining fountains because it simply cannot afford to build the sewers and roads it is being ordered to build by the province today. insanity on guelph council aside, things will only get worse. dont expect that KW or milton or any other place near the top of the growth rate chart will be able to afford even basic services, let alone chip in for a new NHL arena. it just wont happen. kw will be hard pressed to keep up with the costs of growth and it wont have a few hundred million laying around to buy a new arena. (as well, consider that it is k and w, two jurisdictions, ripe for contentious disagreement)

2) your numbers incorrectly assume comparability between regions with respect to mobility. KW does not, nor ever will have a dense urban core like the hammer. that's not the way that city evolved, nor is it the plan. KW is sprawl. moreover, KW is surrounded by smaller quaint hamlets, literally out in farmers fields. true, some will be swallowed by sprawl, but it is silly to think that folks in the golden triangle (kw, camb and guelph) are equally mobile to an arena in KW compared to folks in the GHA and Copps.

bet you dollars to donuts that someone in guelph would be no more likely to attend a game in KW than to attend one in the hammer ... ie., not that likely, especially in winter. so, you can take the forecast population numbers and immediately cut them in half because that many people are so far away from the urban core (or wherever an area might be built) that they are very unlikely to attend games. hamilton, on the other hand is already dense. and a much higher proportion of residents are within 25 minutes drive of Copps than will ever be within similar driving distance from any KW arena, despite growth figures.

and 3) you touch on demographics, but I think you fail to recognize the rabid interest folks in the hammer have in getting an NHL team. it will sell out just as fast as winnipeg (in fact, it has already). no such guarantee would exist in kw, especially if you assume it would draw from much further, inconvenient driving distances in surrounding areas. you think toronto is boringly conservative? kw is ten times that boring.
Well there's a big difference between Guelph and Waterloo region. Waterloo region doesn't have that problem, there is no danger of Kitchener having to cut off tertiary use of water to build more sewers. The cities cooperate on almost everything anyway, and besides, by the time someone decides to build an arena in Kitchener, the tri-cities will be amalgamated. Kitchener has extreme growth yet does all those things.

I think you're blinded by Guelph, an ugly, cesspit of a city with the University being it's only redeeming quality. Waterloo region is one of the richer cities and our city council doesn't worry about the money to build neccesary services, it worries about the public reaction to building a LRT system in the downtown core.

I drive a lot for my work, going to all the nearby cities to Waterloo Region (Guelph, Stratford, Woodstock) and in the city as well (Cambridge, Ayr etc.) and it's very easy to get around. I can get to Guelph in 20 minutes easily, Cambridge about 15 minutes, Stratford 40 minutes, Woodstock 30 minutes. It is easy to get around, far easier than getting to Hamilton. People from the nearby little towns get to Kitchener easily, no one from Wellesly, Elmira, Ayr, New Hamburg, Paris, St. Jacobs would think it's difficult to get to Kitchener. I think you're out of your mind if people in Guelph would think it's the same to go to Hamilton as it is Kitchener. It definitely is not.

Hamilton is poorer, has less industry growth, McMaster isn't exactly known for keeping people in Hamilton, UW and WLU are. Kitchener is on the 401 and the commercial center for the area (Which includes Guelph). In 20 years, I don't see how anyone can think Hamilton is a better city. Not to mention the hockey logistics, Hamilton is in the middle of two territories, Kitchener isn't in any.

Hamilton's arena needs serious upgrades, and even then it'll be an antiquated arena. Waterloo Region will be the better place for an NHL team in the near future, guarenteed.

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11-12-2012, 03:31 PM
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ah, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, Faidh ar Rud Eigin. clearly you are a kw fan, blind to the several downturns this year, buying full in to the rosey presumptive forecasts from city hall and chambers of commerce. housing starts are down this year in kw and unemployment is up. you seem unable to see much value in neighbouring areas, especially that cesspit of guelph where both actually outranked kw. but fair enough, selective vision, i get that. and dont worry that kw, led by rim has been hit very hard this past couple of years, it will recover, as will the entire area.

fwiw, i think kw is undersized, isolated and not as rich as you think, and that hamilton is well positioned for the future with major development downtown and new innovation. no worries tho, i understand it's much easier to think of hamilton as a decrepit steeltown. and it's much easier to think that waterloo and laurier are producing brilliant minds and that mac is full of dummies, even thought it's just not true. and never mind that hamilton is strategically a much better location for an NHL franchise. i mean, really, why would the league want to encourage natural rivalries with the leafs and sabre when fans will be flying up from florida and los angeles to see the kw snowballers.

sorry man, kw will never get an nhl team.

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11-12-2012, 03:50 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I think you're blinded by Guelph, an ugly, cesspit of a city with the University being it's only redeeming quality.... Hamilton's arena needs serious upgrades, and even then it'll be an antiquated arena. Waterloo Region will be the better place for an NHL team in the near future, guarenteed.
... Man, thats harsh. Thems fightin words. If I had to choose between KW & Guelph, no contest; Guelph is an absolute jewel of a place to live, work, go to school, shop, visit. Has been for decades upon decades. It actually makes just about as much sense (if not more) to build a 20,000 seat NHL ready arena in that town as it does KW/Cambridge if so inclined, but why, when Hamilton is hands & feet down better to either one; incomparably superior on every level? That city, despite its decades long dysfunction at the municipal governance levels is just sleeping. Its' time will come.

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11-12-2012, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Well there's a big difference between Guelph and Waterloo region. Waterloo region doesn't have that problem, there is no danger of Kitchener having to cut off tertiary use of water to build more sewers. The cities cooperate on almost everything anyway, and besides, by the time someone decides to build an arena in Kitchener, the tri-cities will be amalgamated. Kitchener has extreme growth yet does all those things.

I think you're blinded by Guelph, an ugly, cesspit of a city with the University being it's only redeeming quality. Waterloo region is one of the richer cities and our city council doesn't worry about the money to build neccesary services, it worries about the public reaction to building a LRT system in the downtown core.

I drive a lot for my work, going to all the nearby cities to Waterloo Region (Guelph, Stratford, Woodstock) and in the city as well (Cambridge, Ayr etc.) and it's very easy to get around. I can get to Guelph in 20 minutes easily, Cambridge about 15 minutes, Stratford 40 minutes, Woodstock 30 minutes. It is easy to get around, far easier than getting to Hamilton. People from the nearby little towns get to Kitchener easily, no one from Wellesly, Elmira, Ayr, New Hamburg, Paris, St. Jacobs would think it's difficult to get to Kitchener. I think you're out of your mind if people in Guelph would think it's the same to go to Hamilton as it is Kitchener. It definitely is not.

Hamilton is poorer, has less industry growth, McMaster isn't exactly known for keeping people in Hamilton, UW and WLU are. Kitchener is on the 401 and the commercial center for the area (Which includes Guelph). In 20 years, I don't see how anyone can think Hamilton is a better city. Not to mention the hockey logistics, Hamilton is in the middle of two territories, Kitchener isn't in any.

Hamilton's arena needs serious upgrades, and even then it'll be an antiquated arena. Waterloo Region will be the better place for an NHL team in the near future, guarenteed.
Pretty neat story sir. But until said time when you either have an arena or bring plans to council to get one built, you don't have a dog in this race..

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