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Old
11-11-2012, 10:21 PM
  #426
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
They're the owners, they have the rights to do so, that's something peoples should understand.
That's actually not correct.

In order to have things like salary caps, entry level contracts, trades, escrow, etc you need a labour union to agree to these things. They are illegal in the private marketplace.

What you have in the private marketplace are employers competing for employees and vice versa. This drives up wages in a high-talent field like the NHL, where we saw before the last lockout 72% of revenue went to players.

If the owners want to go back to free markets I'm sure the players will agree to this at anytime and thus claim 72% of revenue, however, the owners prefer socialism. Given that they prefer socialism, negotiations will be part of the process.

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The players taking more than 50 % of the revenue is also something ridiculous especially in a professional sport.
Wrong, in high-talent fields it is common for employee compensation to run higher than 50% of revenue. I previously gave the example of Wall Street on this thread, where investment banks like Morgan Stanley spend 51% or 52% of their revenue on compensation. When employers have to compete for high-talent individuals, wages go up and up.

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Old
11-11-2012, 10:40 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That's actually not correct.

In order to have things like salary caps, entry level contracts, trades, escrow, etc you need a labour union to agree to these things. They are illegal in the private marketplace.

What you have in the private marketplace are employers competing for employees and vice versa. This drives up wages in a high-talent field like the NHL, where we saw before the last lockout 72% of revenue went to players.

If the owners want to go back to free markets I'm sure the players will agree to this at anytime and thus claim 72% of revenue, however, the owners prefer socialism. Given that they prefer socialism, negotiations will be part of the process.


Wrong, in high-talent fields it is common for employee compensation to run higher than 50% of revenue. I previously gave the example of Wall Street on this thread, where investment banks like Morgan Stanley spend 51% or 52% of their revenue on compensation. When employers have to compete for high-talent individuals, wages go up and up.
About my first quote I think you did not get what I mean, what I wanted to say, is they have every right to do theses demands, yes the NHLPA have to accept and they have to negotiate, that's normal. I don't deny that. but I personally thinks it's normal that the owners are getting more their way and they have every rights to do so, they have the bigger end.

In my second quote I made a precision about professionnal sport, then again you made a point with 51-52 % not 57 % !

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I think their strategy called for negotiations right after the season because during the season they would have much less leverage.
It's probably that, but I still thinks it's hard to defend and actually look bad for the public relation in my opinion.

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Old
11-12-2012, 12:15 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Bettman has everything to do with it. It's his third lockout, and everybody knew that Gary Bettman, Jeremy Jacobs, etc were planning another lockout.

It's only natural that the NHLPA would get someone good to do the job, as they were under threat.

The league could have just agreed to play this season under the old CBA. They could have also agreed to the players offer on day one, which made a generous concession of reducing player intake from 57% to 54%, equivalent to a whopping 114 million dollars a year in revenue. There was no need for Bettman to have his third work stoppage.
Not because Bettman's a dick that it makes it okay for the other side to be one as well.

Bettman is a twit. Always has been. Still don't understand how he's still the commissioner. That being said, Fehr is no better.

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11-12-2012, 12:30 AM
  #429
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Not because Bettman's a dick that it makes it okay for the other side to be one as well.
Actually it does. They are forced to match. You can't send a fish to fight against sharks.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Bettman is a twit. Always has been. Still don't understand how he's still the commissioner. That being said, Fehr is no better.
Fehr has a superior track record in baseball. One post-season was lost, but since then the league has had labour peace for 18 years, so overall the labour peace is very high.

Everybody is winning. The owners have record profits. The players have record salaries. The fans are also getting parity: 7 teams have won the world-series in the past 10 years, with three teams winning twice (Boston, San Franscisco and St-Louis), which cannot remotely be argued to be the three biggest markets. St-Louis is actually under 3 million people.

I like how Fehr is handling this lockout. Let's look at his successes:
- He's demanding no rollbacks of player salaries: this will build trust and set up a positive precedent. You won't see an orgy of spending when the next CBA expires like the opportunistic Craig Leipold engaged in this summer -- note that Craig Leipold is in the NHL's executive committee and thus is more "in the know" than nearly all others, including every agent and player. Gaming CBA changes, and using insider knowledge, should not be part of any team-building model.
- He's demanding that a decreased player share be coupled with increased revenue sharing, and has even suggested that non-player spending (e.g. scouting, drafting) be capped. If this is implemented, it will lead to a more viable business model for the NHL, and reduce the odds we have Bettman's fourth lockout in 2018.

You can call him a dick all you want, but the bottom line is that Fehr's strategy means a legitimate, viable business for the NHL.

The converse is not true of Bettman. He's not the one proposing revenue sharing. He's not the one saying contracts be honoured. A few years back he put the NHL on the Versus network, which was horrible for the game's popularity in the USA. I've had a lot of people tell me that they would watch hockey, but could not, because they did not have Versus.

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Old
11-12-2012, 12:49 AM
  #430
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Actually it does. They are forced to match. You can't send a fish to fight against sharks.
Well, they are not fish or sharks.
You can be a hard negotiator without being a dick.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Fehr has a superior track record in baseball. One post-season was lost, but since then the league has had labour peace for 18 years, so overall the labour peace is very high.

Everybody is winning. The owners have record profits. The players have record salaries. The fans are also getting parity: 7 teams have won the world-series in the past 10 years, with three teams winning twice (Boston, San Franscisco and St-Louis), which cannot remotely be argued to be the three biggest markets. St-Louis is actually under 3 million people.

I like how Fehr is handling this lockout. Let's look at his successes:
- He's demanding no rollbacks of player salaries: this will build trust and set up a positive precedent. You won't see an orgy of spending when the next CBA expires like the opportunistic Craig Leipold engaged in this summer -- note that Craig Leipold is in the NHL's executive committee and thus is more "in the know" than nearly all others, including every agent and player. Gaming CBA changes, and using insider knowledge, should not be part of any team-building model.
- He's demanding that a decreased player share be coupled with increased revenue sharing, and has even suggested that non-player spending (e.g. scouting, drafting) be capped. If this is implemented, it will lead to a more viable business model for the NHL, and reduce the odds we have Bettman's fourth lockout in 2018.

You can call him a dick all you want, but the bottom line is that Fehr's strategy means a legitimate, viable business for the NHL.

The converse is not true of Bettman. He's not the one proposing revenue sharing. He's not the one saying contracts be honoured. A few years back he put the NHL on the Versus network, which was horrible for the game's popularity in the USA. I've had a lot of people tell me that they would watch hockey, but could not, because they did not have Versus.
Oh..no rollback will set forth trust..you sold me, this will make the NHL a better league..
I really do not know why you are happy with Fehr here, really, I don't understand. Neither side have handled things well. I don't care what Fehr did 18years ago for the MLB. We are 2012 and this is NHL.

As for your versus network comment, the same can be said about hockey here. If you don't have RDS, you don't get Habs game. You only get some on CBC, but for the french speaking population, they don't have an out.

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Old
11-12-2012, 08:16 AM
  #431
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Clearly you did not understand my post.

I don't care why they're doing this, I really don't. What I said was annoying is them pretending to care about the fans. Because we do hear them talk about the fans often during the year right, or did you forget this? ''We love the fans'', ''it's all about the fans'', blablabla...So enough of this BS of them actually caring for the fans.

Of course they're doing it for the money and they have every right to fight for it, but don't turn around to say you care about the fans after when you take weeks before scheduling meetings and possibly have yet another lost season.
This rant is not all about you, so don't go all flame on me OK? Please?

Christ. Really. Boo Hoo. It's about good form, a fact of our lives every single minute of the day. What are the players supposed to say. 'I don't care about the fans, they can **** off'?

Of course they don't mean it when they mention the fans. Wow. How terrible. I hear people say things they don't mean all day long. It's called good form.

Jeezus. And not you, but to all those who really care that NHL players don't care about us? Really? Does this surprise you? They would play the game with no one in the stands. This is what they do. They just make much more money because we are there. We are peeping toms on their talent. We are not clients, we are fans. Understand the difference.

I don't give two ***** about NHL players either, except when they're on the ice, playing for or against the Habs. Otherwise they don't exist for me and I have no interest in their personal lives or their salaries. None. And they have no business in my personal life either by the way, or any business commenting on my salary. I return the same respect and distance to them.

It's a transaction. NHL players play for my pleasure, and I pay their salary. It's how the world works, and half the madness we have today is because people cross boundaries and don't understand this non personal relationship.

People who actually think that players must respect fans is a valid idea, or complain about the players' salaries, and say firemen or policeman or more brave and deserving, when there are only 700 NHL caliber players in the entire world, each year, are idiotic.

Of course police and firemen are brave and important, but they are not in the same public relationship with us, at all, in no way.

I just give up. EMO stupidity during this lockout from fans beyond belief. And the owners are taking advantage of it. Anyone who sides with the owners in this is a mug. Really. That's been my position from the start, and I believe it more every day.


Last edited by bsl: 11-12-2012 at 08:33 AM.
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Old
11-12-2012, 09:13 AM
  #432
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Can't believe people are defending Fehr here, and defending the players going on strike before the playoffs? If the NHL players did that I'd never support them ever again.

Say what you want about Bettman, but at least he cares more about hockey than Fehr does.

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11-12-2012, 09:40 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
Can't believe people are defending Fehr here, and defending the players going on strike before the playoffs? If the NHL players did that I'd never support them ever again.

Say what you want about Bettman, but at least he cares more about hockey than Fehr does.
Exactly, and that's why his first move was to shutdown the league, and his second to cancel pre season games.

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Old
11-12-2012, 10:02 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
This rant is not all about you, so don't go all flame on me OK? Please?

Christ. Really. Boo Hoo. It's about good form, a fact of our lives every single minute of the day. What are the players supposed to say. 'I don't care about the fans, they can **** off'?

Of course they don't mean it when they mention the fans. Wow. How terrible. I hear people say things they don't mean all day long. It's called good form.

Jeezus. And not you, but to all those who really care that NHL players don't care about us? Really? Does this surprise you? They would play the game with no one in the stands. This is what they do. They just make much more money because we are there. We are peeping toms on their talent. We are not clients, we are fans. Understand the difference.

I don't give two ***** about NHL players either, except when they're on the ice, playing for or against the Habs. Otherwise they don't exist for me and I have no interest in their personal lives or their salaries. None. And they have no business in my personal life either by the way, or any business commenting on my salary. I return the same respect and distance to them.

It's a transaction. NHL players play for my pleasure, and I pay their salary. It's how the world works, and half the madness we have today is because people cross boundaries and don't understand this non personal relationship.

People who actually think that players must respect fans is a valid idea, or complain about the players' salaries, and say firemen or policeman or more brave and deserving, when there are only 700 NHL caliber players in the entire world, each year, are idiotic.

Of course police and firemen are brave and important, but they are not in the same public relationship with us, at all, in no way.

I just give up. EMO stupidity during this lockout from fans beyond belief. And the owners are taking advantage of it. Anyone who sides with the owners in this is a mug. Really. That's been my position from the start, and I believe it more every day.
I understand this, and agree with it. I am just sick of hearing them say it. They don't have to say anything about the fans. If a reporter asks them ''what about the fans'', well they can come up with something like ''fans are really the ones suffering from it, but this is our lively hood and it just needs to be done''. Something more genuine.
Would it really be that hard? Not that I care about the players, just sick of the BS.
I'm just growing my annoyance in the every day world of people that just spew out crap. Sick of it. World would be a better place if people just stayed honest and told the truth. Call it a phase if you'd like.

But I really hate it when I hear some fans talk as if they're entitled to something. Find that absolutely idiotic.

As for this lockout, I've said from the beginning, both sides handled it poorly, they're both at fault.

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Old
11-12-2012, 10:32 AM
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Exactly, and that's why his first move was to shutdown the league, and his second to cancel pre season games.
Why the hell would he play it under the old CBA and then have the players strike before the play-offs. Because nothing like that has ever happened in any major sport under Donald Fehr's rule?

Right.

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11-12-2012, 11:07 AM
  #436
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Why the hell would he play it under the old CBA and then have the players strike before the play-offs. Because nothing like that has ever happened in any major sport under Donald Fehr's rule?

Right.
didnt they make record profits last season or something ?

dont they realise that for some markets, a few more empty seats would be catastrophic ? and that a lockout may just cause that ?

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11-12-2012, 11:18 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
didnt they make record profits last season or something ?

dont they realise that for some markets, a few more empty seats would be catastrophic ? and that a lockout may just cause that ?
I rarely agree with this guy..
But bolded is the reason why a lockout was terrible to begin with.

Momentum.

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Old
11-12-2012, 11:44 AM
  #438
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didnt they make record profits last season or something ?

dont they realise that for some markets, a few more empty seats would be catastrophic ? and that a lockout may just cause that ?
by they, if you are referring to a handful of large market teams, than yes , they did.

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11-12-2012, 12:08 PM
  #439
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didnt they make record profits last season or something ?

dont they realise that for some markets, a few more empty seats would be catastrophic ? and that a lockout may just cause that ?
Revenues aren't profits.

Generally speaking profits are revenues minus expenses. They may have had record revenues but they likely had record expenses as well. In addition, those record revenues were concentrated in the hands of a very few teams meaning that many teams lost money.

Perhaps the "median" revenue rather than the "average" revenue should considered when calculating the cap. That would eliminate a lot of the distortions that occur when you use averages.

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11-12-2012, 12:22 PM
  #440
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Exactly, and that's why his first move was to shutdown the league, and his second to cancel pre season games.
So Fehr cares more about the game than he does?

It's not about siding with the owners over the players, it's about doing what is best for the overall health of the league.

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11-12-2012, 12:45 PM
  #441
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So Fehr cares more about the game than he does?
I don't see how it is part of either Fehr or Bettman's mandate to care about "the game"... rather, they care about the specific business interests they represent.

But that said, it seems a little strange to many of us that things are going so poorly in the CBA negotiations... it seems like there is some "obvious" math that says the players are going to lose more/as much money by missing this season as they would by accepting the NHL offers, and that the NHL is at least at risk of losing some growing portion of it's HRR projections if it continues to alienate its customers by keeping the doors closed...

"The game" aside, the respective positions seem hard to justify. But I figure these guys are paid the big bucks to represent their business interests and must know a lot more about it than we do, because they wouldn't shoot themselves in the feet for no reason. They just wouldn't. Because it's about the money, the business. And that really is what they know and care about.

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11-12-2012, 12:59 PM
  #442
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Revenues aren't profits.

Generally speaking profits are revenues minus expenses. They may have had record revenues but they likely had record expenses as well. In addition, those record revenues were concentrated in the hands of a very few teams meaning that many teams lost money.

Perhaps the "median" revenue rather than the "average" revenue should considered when calculating the cap. That would eliminate a lot of the distortions that occur when you use averages.
those are great points, because of the 57% and cap floor, Toronto Montreal and NYR making huge revenue actually hurts small markets because it raises their biggest expense, players' salaries as the cap floor and average player's salary goes up.

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11-12-2012, 01:01 PM
  #443
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well, it's official. I miss watching the habs- win or lose.

In the spring, I did not have a good feeling about a deal being reached for hockey to start in October but regardless, I truly believed a deal would happen, and we would start watching nhl hockey by December.

Although, now, this appears to be false, I am wondering if we will even get to watch a game this year. While the habs don't have a very strong team, it's always fun to watch guys develop and talk about hockey (even if sometimes it's like talking to a wall).

I don't know, I handled the last lock-out fine, but man-oh-man, I am craving hockey because I want to see the direction of the habs young, and really, unpredictable team. There are various possibilities because of all the new faces and, for the reason, I am excited with this team. That said, I will say, the biggest mistake this team made was trading cammy.

He's a hell of a player and a reaction move that kills the top 6. No doubt, our defense and bottom 6 have nowhere to go but up; however, our top 6 could be in major trouble without an additional solid player. WE'RE REALLY MISSING A DECENT TOP 6 PLAYER.

oh well, coulda-shoulda-woulda

end, sad and missing nhl hockey, rant.

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11-12-2012, 03:04 PM
  #444
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Wrong, in high-talent fields it is common for employee compensation to run higher than 50% of revenue. I previously gave the example of Wall Street on this thread, where investment banks like Morgan Stanley spend 51% or 52% of their revenue on compensation. When employers have to compete for high-talent individuals, wages go up and up.
You are actually wrong, this can't be applied to all 'high-end' talent unions. Most labour unions are a set hourly rate, they don't get a piece of the pie when we bid a job, for example

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11-12-2012, 04:54 PM
  #445
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You are actually wrong, this can't be applied to all 'high-end' talent unions. Most labour unions are a set hourly rate, they don't get a piece of the pie when we bid a job, for example
People, including the NHL, do not want the NHLPA to act like "most unions". Most unions do not link salaries to revenues; most unions have set wage increases, year-to-year, which once negotiated are largely independent of how "well" the company does. The NHLPA tried that, proposing 2%, 3% and 4% raises, de-linking their salaries from revenues.

People freaked out.

I'm not entirely sure why, to be honest with you. Personally I have always thought that in the absence of 100% revenue sharing "linkage" was an artificial concept anyways. The Montreal Canadiens do not give the players 57% of their revenues anymore than the Phoenix Coyotes do. Linkage, in my opinion, causes more problems than it is worth, for the very reasons everybody here keeps talking about - some teams make a lot more than others. So unless you are willing to balance out things on that end, through revenue sharing, you are always going to have this huge disparity and it's always going to cause a problem. I would think it would be much better to go with a set an -x-% raise for the next 10 years and live and die that way. Then and only then would you have true cost certainty.

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11-12-2012, 05:17 PM
  #446
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I don't see how it is part of either Fehr or Bettman's mandate to care about "the game"... rather, they care about the specific business interests they represent.

But that said, it seems a little strange to many of us that things are going so poorly in the CBA negotiations... it seems like there is some "obvious" math that says the players are going to lose more/as much money by missing this season as they would by accepting the NHL offers, and that the NHL is at least at risk of losing some growing portion of it's HRR projections if it continues to alienate its customers by keeping the doors closed...

"The game" aside, the respective positions seem hard to justify. But I figure these guys are paid the big bucks to represent their business interests and must know a lot more about it than we do, because they wouldn't shoot themselves in the feet for no reason. They just wouldn't. Because it's about the money, the business. And that really is what they know and care about.
What I'm getting at is that Bettman has more riding on the future of the game than Fehr does, who has no connection to it at all. If the NHL as a business is not successful, then he's screwed.

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11-12-2012, 05:29 PM
  #447
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Can't believe people are defending Fehr here, and defending the players going on strike before the playoffs? If the NHL players did that I'd never support them ever again.

Say what you want about Bettman, but at least he cares more about hockey than Fehr does.
Kinda like what the owners are doing right now? When the players use their leverage they are "greedy" and "don't care about ze precious fans" but when the owners do it they are such brilliant negotiators and well within their rights.

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What I'm getting at is that Bettman has more riding on the future of the game than Fehr does, who has no connection to it at all. If the NHL as a business is not successful, then he's screwed.
Bettman represents owners who have made billions in fields unrelated to hockey while Fehr represents players who solely need the NHL in order to not take a massive pay reduction. Which one has more vested in the NHL exactly?

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11-12-2012, 06:15 PM
  #448
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Actually it does. They are forced to match. You can't send a fish to fight against sharks.


Fehr has a superior track record in baseball. One post-season was lost, but since then the league has had labour peace for 18 years, so overall the labour peace is very high.

Everybody is winning. The owners have record profits. The players have record salaries. The fans are also getting parity: 7 teams have won the world-series in the past 10 years, with three teams winning twice (Boston, San Franscisco and St-Louis), which cannot remotely be argued to be the three biggest markets. St-Louis is actually under 3 million people.

I like how Fehr is handling this lockout. Let's look at his successes:
- He's demanding no rollbacks of player salaries: this will build trust and set up a positive precedent. You won't see an orgy of spending when the next CBA expires like the opportunistic Craig Leipold engaged in this summer -- note that Craig Leipold is in the NHL's executive committee and thus is more "in the know" than nearly all others, including every agent and player. Gaming CBA changes, and using insider knowledge, should not be part of any team-building model.
- He's demanding that a decreased player share be coupled with increased revenue sharing, and has even suggested that non-player spending (e.g. scouting, drafting) be capped. If this is implemented, it will lead to a more viable business model for the NHL, and reduce the odds we have Bettman's fourth lockout in 2018.

You can call him a dick all you want, but the bottom line is that Fehr's strategy means a legitimate, viable business for the NHL.

The converse is not true of Bettman. He's not the one proposing revenue sharing. He's not the one saying contracts be honoured. A few years back he put the NHL on the Versus network, which was horrible for the game's popularity in the USA. I've had a lot of people tell me that they would watch hockey, but could not, because they did not have Versus.
You can spin it anyway you like. It does not change the reality that attendance in baseball is stagnant and not growing. Attendance in baseball was growing yearly prior to Fehr and his alienation of MLB baseball fans.

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11-12-2012, 06:18 PM
  #449
SouthernHab
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Oh, and Bettman needs to go as well.

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11-12-2012, 06:20 PM
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Kinda like what the owners are doing right now? When the players use their leverage they are "greedy" and "don't care about ze precious fans" but when the owners do it they are such brilliant negotiators and well within their rights.



Bettman represents owners who have made billions in fields unrelated to hockey while Fehr represents players who solely need the NHL in order to not take a massive pay reduction. Which one has more vested in the NHL exactly?
Bettman represents the NHL. Long after these negotiations are finished, he'll be in charge of running the league. The rest of your "point" is inserting words into my mouth.

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