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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:31 PM
  #776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Given NHL's stance on contracting issues, Fehr said he doesn't currently "see a path to an agreement"

someone needs to "take care" of donald fehr
This guy needs to go. He doesn't want a deal, its his way or the highway...Hmm reminds me of someone else...

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:22 PM
  #777
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This guy needs to go. He doesn't want a deal, its his way or the highway...Hmm reminds me of someone else...
i just dont really get the whole 'its a matter of principal thing.'

if they have a beef about free agency... i can understand. if they dont want to lose money then i can understand that too. if they deal with reality i think i can understand.

but theres a real logic problem when they say the owners werent bargaining in good faith with the contracts being handed out???? what????

what was the alternative? could the owners have given parise and suter less money and made them happier? what the hell was the alternative?

the owners need a new split on revenues... but what was the alternative under the old cba BUT TO HONOR IT and then wait for this new one and renegotiate it?

would the players have been better off if the owners had given them smaller contracts in the past?

I dont get the whole principal thing. and i dont agree the players lost under the last cba. They may not have won as much as they wanted too... but they sure as hell did great. If the owners did great, they wouldnt need a lockout now.

at some point you either say the owners are INCREDIBLY STUPID or you begin to trust that maybe they have a problem???? usually billionares dont become billionares by being stupid. So many they have a problem?

but i guess its a matter of principle or something? The sad thing is that the big issue now seems to be the make whole. Instead of talking about losing an entire years salary at an average of around 2.5 mill per player and doing irreperable harm to the league and future earnings {50% of which are the players} they seem to want to freak out over the possibility that they might lose a couple hundred k in the future instead perhaps maybe if things go wrong sort of...

its... hard to really understand this principal thing when the real numbers just dont support anything the union is trying to fight for at this point

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11-11-2012, 04:26 PM
  #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN
#CBA Given NHL's stance on contracting issues, Fehr said he doesn't currently "see a path to an agreement"

someone needs to "take care" of donald fehr
People told me I was crazy for suggesting he was the real problem. His latest comments prove he is without a shred of doubt.

Sad days ahead that's for sure.

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:30 PM
  #779
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Donald Fehr and $9 beers. Two of the worst things to ever happen to pro sports fans.

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:46 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by Kalus View Post
Didn't see this one. Not fair to you if I don't reply.

If the conditions for boxers are unbearable (your comment suggests you think they are being exploited), they would pursue earning a living doing something else. They obviously find the terms agreeable or they wouldn't be in the business. One might argue that the boxers aren't getting a 'fair share' or whatever, but I for one am not qualified to put a value on what that amount is.

Markets are mostly efficient. If the boxers aren't being paid well enough to compensate them for their effort and they can find more suitable terms in other employment, they will leave the boxer labor force. The boxing industry would then need to improve the terms to convince them back or fold up shop.
Wow, with all due respect you know nothing about the boxing game.

If you think the majority of boxers have a multitude of career options, you'd do well to visit some gyms in Brockton, the Bronx, Detroit, Vegas, etc., etc., etc.

It would blow your mind and make you completely rethink your view that it's somehow a fair market driven business. A tiny tiny fraction of boxers make any real money and often are totally unequiped to deal with it if they do. The rest get the crap beaten out of them and ultimately walk away broken physically and economically.

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11-11-2012, 05:12 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
People told me I was crazy for suggesting he was the real problem. His latest comments prove he is without a shred of doubt.

Sad days ahead that's for sure.
3 lockouts under Bettman - but it's all Fehr's fault. Good one.

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11-11-2012, 05:33 PM
  #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
3 lockouts under Bettman - but it's all Fehr's fault. Good one.
Six of the eight contract negotiations he has been involved in have resulted in work stoppages, including five consecutive negotiations between the MLBPA and Major League Baseball---From Wikipedia.

He did have his union strike in the middle of a season ruining that postseason ....

He is as evil as Bettman....and the players knew exactly who they were hiring.

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:41 PM
  #783
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The players need to take a long hard look into the mirror and realize what's going on.

Fehr hasn't been honest with the players, and while he's doing his job. He needs to compromise now that the NHL is actually doing something.

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Old
11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
  #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mione134 View Post
The players need to take a long hard look into the mirror and realize what's going on.

Fehr hasn't been honest with the players, and while he's doing his job. He needs to compromise now that the NHL is actually doing something.
Yes, he has. You can complain all you want about what he's doing, but the players know what's going on.

From McKenzie:

Quote:
It's fair to say the NHL was angry, frustrated and disillusioned that its new and improved Make Whole provision was, more or less, summarily dismissed by the NHLPA.

And the NHLPA reacted angrily to veiled suggestions from the NHL that NHLPA executive director Don Fehr hasn't been entirely forthcoming with certain details of the NHL offer, specifically on Make Whole.
Quote:
My guess is the NHL's effort to discredit Fehr's communication skills was equal parts frustration and tactical.
A good analysis of the situation, minus the emotion and agendas we get from so many:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409277

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11-11-2012, 06:16 PM
  #785
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So Fehr wasn't buying into the deal unless the players got paid 100% of their contracts? Including games that they're not playing?

Gotta ditch this guy, stat

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Old
11-11-2012, 07:47 PM
  #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Yes, he has. You can complain all you want about what he's doing, but the players know what's going on.

From McKenzie:





A good analysis of the situation, minus the emotion and agendas we get from so many:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409277
There have been instances where the players clearly haven't been briefed on the situation. Look at Barch, he's not the only one. He hasn't been 100% honest. But he also hasnt been lying. He's giving just enough.

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Old
11-11-2012, 07:59 PM
  #787
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Six of the eight contract negotiations he has been involved in have resulted in work stoppages, including five consecutive negotiations between the MLBPA and Major League Baseball---From Wikipedia.

He did have his union strike in the middle of a season ruining that postseason ....

He is as evil as Bettman....and the players knew exactly who they were hiring.
Just trying to present the facts and both sides. I would say 80%+ of the board is blaming Fehr and the players and that is dead wrong. I'll break that out from this post about Fehr - Bettman.

Here are some facts for you to help see who is most to blame:

Fehr - 4 of the 6 were lockouts not strikes. 1 strike was only 2 days. There have been very few missed games during his time with MLB. They don't have a cap, are profitable and haven't missed any games since. No work stoppage under his last 2 contract negotiations with MLB.

Bettman - 3 lockouts in a row which is every negotiation that he has been head of.
1 missed season and championship.
Another season shortened to 48 games.

The players did know who they were getting. A very good negotiator who doesn't miss many games and has overseen the sport with the longest labor peace.

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11-11-2012, 08:10 PM
  #788
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as of Thursday at midnight I am done following this and setting every radio I own to Christmas music and going out and buying two big mother****ing plastic snowman and Santa Claus for my yard.

I am not even sure how I will find out if this gets settled. I will no longer care and I am kinda looking forward to letting go.

I may get a text

I may read it in the paper

I may see a scroll down the bottom of the TV

A family member may tell me

A neighbor may tell me

I have no friends only associates so that could be the way

maybe Quaider tells me but I don't understand it

regardless, starting Friday I am in Feliz Navidad mode and turning in one noise for the another

Have a Holly Jolly Lockout its the best time of the year

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Old
11-11-2012, 08:15 PM
  #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mione134 View Post
There have been instances where the players clearly haven't been briefed on the situation. Look at Barch, he's not the only one. He hasn't been 100% honest. But he also hasnt been lying. He's giving just enough.
According to who?

So either Fehr is deliberately withholding information (which would be a hell of an accomplishment), and/or hundreds of players are too stupid to understand what's going on.

Let's look at motivations here:

What would deliberately withholding information do for Fehr? Earn him more money? No. Make the players like him more? LOL.

What would making Fehr look untrustworthy do for the owners? Spread dissention in the NHLPA, and break up the union? Bingo. And as a side benefit, it makes the owners look better in the eyes of the fans. Blame Fehr!

Bottom line, it's silly and desperate, and as McKenzie noted, undoubtedly born out of frustration and anger. Quit with the character assasination and just ****ing negotiate.

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Old
11-11-2012, 08:16 PM
  #790
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The lockout is 100% because of the owners. 18 teams spent more than their budget; plain and simple.

Despite that, the NHL made $126m this year in cash and $493m in cash and franchise value gain this year alone. Only a couple of teams lost value over the last CBA. Record revenue, profit and franchise values despite running their teams poorly.

Given that backdrop they locked out the players - The owners locked out the players.

Despite the fact that the owners had record revenue, profit and franchise values; and locked out the players - the players offered 50/50 immediately if the owners paid their current contracts. This was done in time to save the winter classic and a full season.

This would have given the owners an additional $246m per year over the next 10 years based on the owners projected growth rate. The players proposal also had more revenue sharing which is better for the health of the league.

$246m more per year for the owners! Combined with revenue sharing enough to guarantee every team is profitable and the rich get richer.

The owners rejected that in 10 minutes with only a handful of owners in the room.

The difference in the players offer and the owners (if the owners are offering a true $211m make whole) is about 1 million per year per team over 10 years.

I'll use the 2 extremes - Phoenix and Toronto.

If you are Phoenix is that 1 million going to make or break your team?
If you are Toronto is that 1 million going to make or break your team?
If the players offer doesn't work for the owners how is the owners offer which is only better for the rich teams going to work?

The players offer was a phenomenal one for the owners and is barely different than the owners. The players getting a couple extra hotel rooms and a 2nd medical opinion is pennies compared to what they are giving up.

But yeah this is Fehr and the players fault.

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Old
11-11-2012, 08:35 PM
  #791
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
as of Thursday at midnight I am done following this
Your giving it until Thursday? I am giving up on the season as of today and strangely instead of anger and disappointment I feel relief and liberated that I am not going to wake up each day hoping that this is the day that these buffoons can compromise enough to open the path to an agreement.

Unfortunately I like hockey too much to give it up so hopefully there will be hockey next season.

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Old
11-11-2012, 10:53 PM
  #792
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Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
The lockout is 100% because of the owners. 18 teams spent more than their budget; plain and simple.

Despite that, the NHL made $126m this year in cash and $493m in cash and franchise value gain this year alone. Only a couple of teams lost value over the last CBA. Record revenue, profit and franchise values despite running their teams poorly.

Given that backdrop they locked out the players - The owners locked out the players.

Despite the fact that the owners had record revenue, profit and franchise values; and locked out the players - the players offered 50/50 immediately if the owners paid their current contracts. This was done in time to save the winter classic and a full season

This would have given the owners an additional $246m per year over the next 10 years based on the owners projected growth rate. The players proposal also had more revenue sharing which is better for the health of the league.

$246m more per year for the owners! Combined with revenue sharing enough to guarantee every team is profitable and the rich get richer.

The owners rejected that in 10 minutes with only a handful of owners in the room.

The difference in the players offer and the owners (if the owners are offering a true $211m make whole) is about 1 million per year per team over 10 years.

I'll use the 2 extremes - Phoenix and Toronto.

If you are Phoenix is that 1 million going to make or break your team?
If you are Toronto is that 1 million going to make or break your team?
If the players offer doesn't work for the owners how is the owners offer which is only better for the rich teams going to work?

The players offer was a phenomenal one for the owners and is barely different than the owners. The players getting a couple extra hotel rooms and a 2nd medical opinion is pennies compared to what they are giving up.

But yeah this is Fehr and the players fault.
Well said.This is not the players fault one bit.We watch the players play not the owners.The owners should be happy with a profit while the players bust their ***** and risk their health(Savard)for them.Bettman and the owners can go to #%$@.

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Old
11-11-2012, 11:15 PM
  #793
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**** Fehr

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Old
11-11-2012, 11:49 PM
  #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
According to who?

So either Fehr is deliberately withholding information (which would be a hell of an accomplishment), and/or hundreds of players are too stupid to understand what's going on.

Let's look at motivations here:

What would deliberately withholding information do for Fehr? Earn him more money? No. Make the players like him more? LOL.

What would making Fehr look untrustworthy do for the owners? Spread dissention in the NHLPA, and break up the union? Bingo. And as a side benefit, it makes the owners look better in the eyes of the fans. Blame Fehr!

Bottom line, it's silly and desperate, and as McKenzie noted, undoubtedly born out of frustration and anger. Quit with the character assasination and just ****ing negotiate.
Artemis? You've never looked so beautiful to me as you do right now. You said her better than I would have.

Nice work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
The lockout is 100% because of the owners. 18 teams spent more than their budget; plain and simple.

Despite that, the NHL made $126m this year in cash and $493m in cash and franchise value gain this year alone. Only a couple of teams lost value over the last CBA. Record revenue, profit and franchise values despite running their teams poorly.

Given that backdrop they locked out the players - The owners locked out the players.

Despite the fact that the owners had record revenue, profit and franchise values; and locked out the players - the players offered 50/50 immediately if the owners paid their current contracts. This was done in time to save the winter classic and a full season.

This would have given the owners an additional $246m per year over the next 10 years based on the owners projected growth rate. The players proposal also had more revenue sharing which is better for the health of the league.

$246m more per year for the owners! Combined with revenue sharing enough to guarantee every team is profitable and the rich get richer.

The owners rejected that in 10 minutes with only a handful of owners in the room.

The difference in the players offer and the owners (if the owners are offering a true $211m make whole) is about 1 million per year per team over 10 years.

I'll use the 2 extremes - Phoenix and Toronto.

If you are Phoenix is that 1 million going to make or break your team?
If you are Toronto is that 1 million going to make or break your team?
If the players offer doesn't work for the owners how is the owners offer which is only better for the rich teams going to work?

The players offer was a phenomenal one for the owners and is barely different than the owners. The players getting a couple extra hotel rooms and a 2nd medical opinion is pennies compared to what they are giving up.

But yeah this is Fehr and the players fault.
It's infuriating, isn't it??

And those proposals are seen as the PA "not even trying."

Now... I'm not sold that this lockout is 100% owner's fault. And I DO believe that there needs to be changes made to the financial structure of the league AND that player reductions in the share of HRR are a part of that strategy.

But Fehr is getting a GREAT deal of slack right now, which means that there's a huge lot of you who are buying into the NHL's BS propaganda. The confusion over the "Make Whole" provision is just one example of people refusing FACT in favor of whatever garbage makes them feel more.

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Old
11-11-2012, 11:51 PM
  #795
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**** Fehr
**** all of them, but especially that guy

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11-12-2012, 06:32 AM
  #796
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McKenzie


"There is no question the NHL has grown increasingly exasperated by Fehr, who takes passive aggressive to an art form. There is a notion within league headquarters that he has no interest in making a deal, that he's looking for this dispute to go nuclear so he can either challenge the NHL's entire salary cap system in a protracted battle that would likely carry over to next season or fight the owners for as long as it takes to, as Fehr is wont to say, break the cycle of owners putting a gun to players' heads in chronic takeaway negotiations."

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11-12-2012, 06:58 AM
  #797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Yes, he has. You can complain all you want about what he's doing, but the players know what's going on.

From McKenzie:





A good analysis of the situation, minus the emotion and agendas we get from so many:

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409277
Where does Bobby Mac say anything about what happened? All he's doing is talking about both sides feelings and his opinion.

Now, you're a smart person and I'm sure you've done your reading:

-NHL proposes their make whole

- It gets out on twitter and players are asking reporters to explain it to them

- then 1 player (of only 5 in the room) leaks the Fehr memo to the media (was it his attempt to publicly display that the make whole wasn't in the memo? - we'll never know unless they figure out who that player was.

- Other players on the NHLPA committee calling out the player that leaked the memo

- Since the proposal was made, players asking questions, the leaked memo, the league questioning whether Fehr is making all the info available - Fehr himself has been talking about that same make whole publicly.

So you've seen the memo, you know then make whole wasn't included in that memo, and the undeniable evidence of Fehr talking about it proves without a shadow of a doubt that the proposal was made - you tell me why it was absent from the memo.

Their excuse is that they tell the players they can call with any questions they have. Sure. Call and ask questions about something that we aren't even aware of.

Your own quote of Bobby Mac begins with "It's fair to say" and goes on to say the NHLPA dismissed the NHL's make whole proposition. Again, the memo tells the players nothing about that.

And the second part?

Quote:
My guess is the NHL's effort to discredit Fehr's communication skills was equal parts frustration and tactical.
Opinion on motivation. Not anything to do with fact of the circumstances leading up to it.

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Old
11-12-2012, 07:16 AM
  #798
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
McKenzie


"There is no question the NHL has grown increasingly exasperated by Fehr, who takes passive aggressive to an art form. There is a notion within league headquarters that he has no interest in making a deal, that he's looking for this dispute to go nuclear so he can either challenge the NHL's entire salary cap system in a protracted battle that would likely carry over to next season or fight the owners for as long as it takes to, as Fehr is wont to say, break the cycle of owners putting a gun to players' heads in chronic takeaway negotiations."
"Chronic takeaway negotiations" is a great way to put it.
Lockout in 1995, negotiate for a cap on players
Lockout in 2004, get a cap on players
Lockout in 2012, negotiate for a lower cap on players

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11-12-2012, 07:20 AM
  #799
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Where does Bobby Mac say anything about what happened? All he's doing is talking about both sides feelings and his opinion.

Now, you're a smart person and I'm sure you've done your reading:

-NHL proposes their make whole

- It gets out on twitter and players are asking reporters to explain it to them

- then 1 player (of only 5 in the room) leaks the Fehr memo to the media (was it his attempt to publicly display that the make whole wasn't in the memo? - we'll never know unless they figure out who that player was.

- Other players on the NHLPA committee calling out the player that leaked the memo

- Since the proposal was made, players asking questions, the leaked memo, the league questioning whether Fehr is making all the info available - Fehr himself has been talking about that same make whole publicly.

So you've seen the memo, you know then make whole wasn't included in that memo, and the undeniable evidence of Fehr talking about it proves without a shadow of a doubt that the proposal was made - you tell me why it was absent from the memo.

Their excuse is that they tell the players they can call with any questions they have. Sure. Call and ask questions about something that we aren't even aware of.

Your own quote of Bobby Mac begins with "It's fair to say" and goes on to say the NHLPA dismissed the NHL's make whole proposition. Again, the memo tells the players nothing about that.

And the second part?



Opinion on motivation. Not anything to do with fact of the circumstances leading up to it.
First, thank you for all the great post and information you provide. Bottom line OOG , do you feel we have a season ?

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Old
11-12-2012, 07:37 AM
  #800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMiller View Post
"Chronic takeaway negotiations" is a great way to put it.
Lockout in 1995, negotiate for a cap on players
Lockout in 2004, get a cap on players
Lockout in 2012, negotiate for a lower cap on players
I dont see how we as fans should be rooting for the financial well being of the players.

Financially sound owners and franchises are very much more in our best interests, IMO.

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