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Old
11-12-2012, 01:24 PM
  #176
Seatoo
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
The Player isn`t the problem it`s the contract that comes with him.
Yea those damn contracts that provide a preferential cap hit that locks up a star player for years with multiple out clauses around the time his play realistically should decline. Terrible value!

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:24 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
somewhat comparable to Kadri, Finn and 1st, no..? I think many have said that'd be ok..
90% of your own board would say "horrible return, Kadri is a bust and it doesn't help our team now!!" You know i am not making it up.

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11-12-2012, 01:30 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by TML g u n n e R s View Post
not if we had the same situation as VAN...


Nice try tho
Luongo's value shouldn't decrease just because the Canucks have 2 elite netminders.

Just like Jordan Staal's value shouldn't have been affected even though everyone and their dog knew he wanted no part of sticking around as Pittsburgh's 3rd line centre...

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:38 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Gillis didn't say he's looking to improve the team, he said he's looking to improve in other areas. Kulemin improves the forward corps while adding size and Biggs and Finn improve the pipeline.

If Gillis wants to further improve the team he will have additional assets to do so.
I don't care how you slice it. That's a horrible return. Like I said, that doesn't improve the team in other areas at all. Especially when you give up a top tier goaltender.

I'd rather just keep Raymond than roll with Kulemin. Atleast we know what we have with Raymond. Biggs and Finn for Luongo? That's almost Mike Milbury like.

I'd rather roll with the two number one goalies that have helped our team to back-to-back President trophies which Gillis has stated comfortably several times. If we need the cap space in the future -- Malholtra, Raymond, Higgins, Lapierre, and Alberts all become UFA's. That's $9.375M right there. Not to mention waiving Ballard, if need to be.


Last edited by Tact: 11-12-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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Old
11-12-2012, 01:43 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Luongo's value shouldn't decrease just because the Canucks have 2 elite netminders.

Just like Jordan Staal's value shouldn't have been affected even though everyone and their dog knew he wanted no part of sticking around as Pittsburgh's 3rd line centre...
Jordan Staal is also a lot younger and that makes a difference. Assumung Luongo plays out the remainder of his contract he will be 43 years old and chances are that won't happen.

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:44 PM
  #181
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I just realized that much of this board has posters from countries outside of Canada that may benefit from an insight about Hockey Night in Canada.

Saturday is Hockey Night in Canada. At one time the CBC was the only network to broadcast hockey on tv and would show only one game per week and it was either Montreal or Toronto playing. This is what us over the age of 40 grew up with.

Over time there became regional broadcasting and our local teams found themselves on tv on competing channels about 10-20 times a year.

Hockey Night in Canada also evolved to show a second game that usually features a Western Canadian team. But with the 3 hour time difference the first game is almost every Saturday a National broadcast starting at 4 pm is the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Keep in mind that now all teams can watch their home teams on their local tv markets cable stations but it hasn't always been this way. I can remember being in University and going to the local stripper club (NBI, Cecil, No 5 ...) to watch US satellite feeds showing the Canuck games on the road and at home. We did not have primeticket, fsn, or any option that was available in the United States. Our CRTC cable broadcast regulator has been very restrictive.

So WTF does this have to do with Luongo ...

It is a bit of background on why GMMG has to get a return of substance from the TML if he gets traded there.

In the Western Canada provinces of BC and Alberta we have during the Primetime Dinner Saturday afternoon hours of 4 pm to 7 pm the Toronto Maple Leafs shown on the National broadcast of the Canadian Broadcast Company (CBC). So when we sit down and crack our beers and look up at the screen in that time ...perhaps waiting for our Canucks to take the ice... What could we see ... Luongo putting his arms up in the air after another win for TML. And what did we get for him???

Consider what this would mean locally for you in your region.

In England, you could have the Queens Park Rangers broadcast by the BBC into your set every week if you lived in Manchester ... where you are a City or United fan.

So I believe that if Luongo is traded to the TML it will be a Hockey trade and nota dump... If he gets dumped it will be somewhere far less visible.

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:51 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
90% of your own board would say "horrible return, Kadri is a bust and it doesn't help our team now!!" You know i am not making it up.
yep.
just as 90% of your board would say 'overpayment!'

if the market is low-ish, id prefer this and the capspace to me able to make deals elsewhere
taking on contracts a la Connolly or Komi only works if those other untouchables come with

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:51 PM
  #183
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The Nucks are in win now mode.

The Nucks could use another defender to play over Alberts and Ballard (who has been a horrible fit) but Toronto won't be sending Phaneuf or Gardiner anywhere. Liles isn't really necessary as Vancouver already has an awesome powerplay. Komisarek nobody wants. Holzer isn't an upgrade. So we're left with Gunnarson who is ideal because of his contract status and he doesn't need PP time. Ballard would get a chance in Toronto to revive his career.

The Nucks also could use a 3rd line center with Malhotra not being what he was just a few seasons ago and the trade of Hodgson. Which means either Bozak or Connolly would go the other way. Lombardi is still to much of a post concussion project to have any value. Everybody craps on Connolly but if he was playing 14 or 15 minutes instead of 17-18 and had a more clearly defined role he'd thrive. He also has an expiring contract and cap hit on a one year deal is mostly irrelevant if you don't have anywhere to spend it.

The Nucks could also use a winger upgrade over Raymond but out of the 3 concerns this is the least pressing. However, CMac would be an upgrade. Not a huge upgrade but still an upgrade.

Vancouver addresses their weaknesses to help them win now, have lots of cap space for after next season and are left with a very useful 4/5 quality defender in Gunnarson.

My proposal is:

Luongo (5.3)
Ballard (4.2)
Raymond (2.275)

Total: 11.775

For

Gunnarson (1.325)
Connolly (4.75)
CMac (3.25)

Total: 9.325

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcjonny View Post
I just realized that much of this board has posters from countries outside of Canada that may benefit from an insight about Hockey Night in Canada.

Saturday is Hockey Night in Canada. At one time the CBC was the only network to broadcast hockey on tv and would show only one game per week and it was either Montreal or Toronto playing. This is what us over the age of 40 grew up with.

Over time there became regional broadcasting and our local teams found themselves on tv on competing channels about 10-20 times a year.

Hockey Night in Canada also evolved to show a second game that usually features a Western Canadian team. But with the 3 hour time difference the first game is almost every Saturday a National broadcast starting at 4 pm is the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Keep in mind that now all teams can watch their home teams on their local tv markets cable stations but it hasn't always been this way. I can remember being in University and going to the local stripper club (NBI, Cecil, No 5 ...) to watch US satellite feeds showing the Canuck games on the road and at home. We did not have primeticket, fsn, or any option that was available in the United States. Our CRTC cable broadcast regulator has been very restrictive.

So WTF does this have to do with Luongo ...

It is a bit of background on why GMMG has to get a return of substance from the TML if he gets traded there.

In the Western Canada provinces of BC and Alberta we have during the Primetime Dinner Saturday afternoon hours of 4 pm to 7 pm the Toronto Maple Leafs shown on the National broadcast of the Canadian Broadcast Company (CBC). So when we sit down and crack our beers and look up at the screen in that time ...perhaps waiting for our Canucks to take the ice... What could we see ... Luongo putting his arms up in the air after another win for TML. And what did we get for him???

Consider what this would mean locally for you in your region.

In England, you could have the Queens Park Rangers broadcast by the BBC into your set every week if you lived in Manchester ... where you are a City or United fan.

So I believe that if Luongo is traded to the TML it will be a Hockey trade and nota dump... If he gets dumped it will be somewhere far less visible.
The fact that CBC shows a lot of Leafs games across Canada shouldn't matter. It's something they have done because Toronto has the most fans across Canada, so they know the majority of people want to see the Leafs play. Plus it's been a long time before Luongo went to the Canucks. Now if that's something you don't want to see I'm sorry to say that's to bad. The Canucks basically made their choice by going with Corey Schneider and this has nothing to do with CBC or Hockey Night In Canada.

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:56 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
The Nucks are in win now mode.

The Nucks could use another defender to play over Alberts and Ballard (who has been a horrible fit) but Toronto won't be sending Phaneuf or Gardiner anywhere. Liles isn't really necessary as Vancouver already has an awesome powerplay. Komisarek nobody wants. Holzer isn't an upgrade. So we're left with Gunnarson who is ideal because of his contract status and he doesn't need PP time. Ballard would get a chance in Toronto to revive his career.

The Nucks also could use a 3rd line center with Malhotra not being what he was just a few seasons ago and the trade of Hodgson. Which means either Bozak or Connolly would go the other way. Lombardi is still to much of a post concussion project to have any value. Everybody craps on Connolly but if he was playing 14 or 15 minutes instead of 17-18 and had a more clearly defined role he'd thrive. He also has an expiring contract and cap hit on a one year deal is mostly irrelevant if you don't have anywhere to spend it.

The Nucks could also use a winger upgrade over Raymond but out of the 3 concerns this is the least pressing. However, CMac would be an upgrade. Not a huge upgrade but still an upgrade.

My proposal is:

Luongo (5.3)
Ballard (4.2)
Raymond (2.275)

Total: 11.775

For

Gunnarson (1.325)
Connolly (4.75)
CMac (3.25)

Total: 9.325
I would do Ballard for Gunnarson (latter is a better 3rd pair LHD, Ballard can play higher in your 6, w/o Edler & Hamhuis ahead)
CMac for Raymond is meh
then ....Luongo for Connolly? ouch.

counter

Luongo Raymond, Ballard
for
JVR, Gunnar, Bozak

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  #186
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But it does matter.

Especially if the return is not remarkable for its generousity.

If I make a mistake I will put my hand up and admit it.

But If I have a dilemma ... Having to make the choice between two things that neither are favorable. I will choose for the one that doesn't show me up every Saturday between 4 pm and 7 pm.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:09 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
I would do Ballard for Gunnarson (latter is a better 3rd pair LHD, Ballard can play higher in your 6, w/o Edler & Hamhuis ahead)
CMac for Raymond is meh
then ....Luongo for Connolly? ouch.

Gunnar is way better than Ballard. WAY better
counter

Luongo Raymond, Ballard
for
JVR, Gunnar, Bozak


Gunnar is way better than Ballard. WAY better

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:15 PM
  #188
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What is a fair price for a top Goaltender with a cap circumventing contract...

My humble opinion...

3 to 5 First Round picks... With 3 being low and 5 being high. The player assets could be in lieu of an actual pick in current value.

So if player X is deemed to be worth say 2 first rounders then there is not much else that needs to be added to get into the ball park.

It would be interesting to assign this type of valuation to some of the offers being put forth.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:17 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Gunnar is way better than Ballard. WAY better
Gunnar has a lot more value to the Leafs. On the Canucks he's simply a 3rd pairing dman and for ~15min he doesn't offer anything Ballard doesn't.

I really doubt he's part of any package. Too important to the Leafs, not valuable to the Nucks.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:18 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcjonny View Post
What is a fair price for a top Goaltender with a cap circumventing contract...

My humble opinion...

3 to 5 First Round picks... With 3 being low and 5 being high. The player assets could be in lieu of an actual pick in current value.

So if player X is deemed to be worth say 2 first rounders then there is not much else that needs to be added to get into the ball park.

It would be interesting to assign this type of valuation to some of the offers being put forth.
Do you mean 3 to 5 unused, future 1st round picks; or,
3 to 5 players who were selected in the 1st round? or,
A combination of both players and picks?

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:26 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcjonny View Post
What is a fair price for a top Goaltender with a cap circumventing contract...

My humble opinion...

3 to 5 First Round picks... With 3 being low and 5 being high. The player assets could be in lieu of an actual pick in current value.

So if player X is deemed to be worth say 2 first rounders then there is not much else that needs to be added to get into the ball park.

It would be interesting to assign this type of valuation to some of the offers being put forth.
So basically you are saying Lou is worth 4 first round picks? No GM in the league will pay that for him, ever.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
  #192
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I will try to make it simple...

I look at his value as a combination of real picks and player equivalents.

If 2 Second picks make a First. An actual player that is valued as a 2nd could be combined with a draft pick to make a first round equivalent.

It is just a method of evaluating player values.

Just because a player was selected in the First round may not give him that current value. And by the same token just because a player is taken in a later round does not mean he is at that current value.

An example of this in thinking is...

Kadri was taken in the 1st round but is now worth a 2nd. Finn was taken in the 2nd but given his current value is now worth a 1st.

It's just an example.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:29 PM
  #193
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So basically you are saying Lou is worth 4 first round picks? No GM in the league will pay that for him, ever.
Depends where the picks are... Top 10 picks? No. Likely not... 25~30 range? I say yes. Easily.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:32 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcjonny View Post
What is a fair price for a top Goaltender with a cap circumventing contract...

My humble opinion...

3 to 5 First Round picks... With 3 being low and 5 being high. The player assets could be in lieu of an actual pick in current value.

So if player X is deemed to be worth say 2 first rounders then there is not much else that needs to be added to get into the ball park.

It would be interesting to assign this type of valuation to some of the offers being put forth.
Don`t know what`s funnier. Your perceived value or the other guy who thinks HNIC will have some bearing on the return.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:33 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
So basically you are saying Lou is worth 4 first round picks? No GM in the league will pay that for him, ever.
He probably means the value of Luongo is equivalent to 3-5 1st rounders.

Nash for 4 1sts (varying from early to late)
Erixon (1st - 10ish)
1st (1st - late)
Dubinsky (1st - late)
Anisimov (1st - mid)

Or in the Leafs example:
Kaberle for 2 1sts
1st - (late 1st)
Colborne (at the time mid 1st)

Hell MacArthur was apparently offered for a 1st (late presumably).

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:34 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
90% of your own board would say "horrible return, Kadri is a bust and it doesn't help our team now!!" You know i am not making it up.
90% is an exaggeration, but I'm pretty sure whoever would be happy with Petrovic, Shore, and a 1st would be happy with Kadri, Finn, and a 1st.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:35 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by jammyrft View Post
Man these trade talks just go round and round in an endless circle.
and has been for how many months?

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:37 PM
  #198
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Depends where the picks are... Top 10 picks? No. Likely not... 25~30 range? I say yes. Easily.
Good news then, I found you a potential trade full of first round picks. There's even a few top 10 picks in there.

Luongo
Ballard (for cap reasons)

for

Lecavalier (1st overall)
Brewer (5th overall)
Lee (9th overall)
2013 1st round pick

Canucks get a center, D that can play right now and a future first round pick.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:39 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Luongo's value shouldn't decrease just because the Canucks have 2 elite netminders.

Just like Jordan Staal's value shouldn't have been affected even though everyone and their dog knew he wanted no part of sticking around as Pittsburgh's 3rd line centre...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
The fact that CBC shows a lot of Leafs games across Canada shouldn't matter. It's something they have done because Toronto has the most fans across Canada, so they know the majority of people want to see the Leafs play. Plus it's been a long time before Luongo went to the Canucks. Now if that's something you don't want to see I'm sorry to say that's to bad. The Canucks basically made their choice by going with Corey Schneider and this has nothing to do with CBC or Hockey Night In Canada.
So you just argued that other factors, say our having another net minder, affect his value and totally dismiss that claim, and yet you're thinking we don't want to see Luongo traded for scraps, and be reminded of that every saturday night...

He's not being moved for scraps anyway, so in a way you're right, just like you're wrong about having Schneider affect his value.

Pay the tab, this isn't some south asian market where you can haggle the price down. If you don't like the price, don't pay, I wish you and the Leafs well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Do you mean 3 to 5 unused, future 1st round picks; or,
3 to 5 players who were selected in the 1st round? or,
A combination of both players and picks?
No one ever counts players drafted, especially if we are talking years after, as the value for a player or prospect. If that were the case, we'd be looking to trade Edler for a 2nd round pick, because that was a huge increase over his draft position.

He means 3-5 picks, or the equivalent players to that value, as someone came up with a formula for value based on draft picks awhile back. Personally I think the logic is flawed, as value should be determined by the assets the team trading for Luongo have, but I'd say he's a lot closer then most of the proposals I've seen since page one of this thread.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #200
MastuhNinks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
I would do Ballard for Gunnarson (latter is a better 3rd pair LHD, Ballard can play higher in your 6, w/o Edler & Hamhuis ahead)
CMac for Raymond is meh
then ....Luongo for Connolly? ouch.

counter

Luongo Raymond, Ballard
for
JVR, Gunnar, Bozak
Honestly, none of the guys in your offer from the Leafs are going to be traded. Not because they're so good to the point of being untouchable, just that it wouldn't make sense. Gunnar is #4 at best on Vancouver, meanwhile he played great with Phaneuf in a top pairing shutdown role, and that was really the Leafs only stable defensive pairing last year. Same idea with Bozak, he's our 1st line center, and he's a 3rd liner on the Canucks. Both of these players are much more valuable to the Leafs than they would be to the Canucks. JVR, it's not that I am not open to trading him it would just seem very un-Burke like to trade for a guy and ship him out months later before giving him the chance to play a game for the team, I don't think he would do that to someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
He's not being moved for scraps anyway, so in a way you're right, just like you're wrong about having Schneider affect his value.
How is that wrong? If the Canucks don't have Schneider they wouldn't even be thinking about trading Luongo, Schneider absolutely affects Luongo's value, if they think he's their guy than the main incentive to trade Luongo is to not have a guy taking up $5.3 mil in cap space to play 30 games a year.

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