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Edmonton + Philadelphia/Dallas

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Old
11-12-2012, 12:22 PM
  #51
CreedBratton
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From an Oilers POV I say yes. They would be set up the middle for years to come. Only problem is Tambo would never risk trading away a first overall pick.

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Old
11-12-2012, 12:28 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by BoldNewLettuce View Post
It doesn't matter what you say. Benn is not on the same level as Stamkos/Tavares/Hall/Nugent-Hopkins/Yakupov.
So you're generally saying Benn's not a 1st overall talent. Cool, I think most Stars fans accept the notion. However, I did take the time to sift thru some of the polls (so more fan popular opinion I think).

It's not a place I hang out, but I thought it'd be interesting to click thru some of these to see a more objective opinion. I realize it's not perfect, but of the names in the first 42 pages of threads, Benn's name comes up quite frequently. I saw him consistently take down names like Eberle, Kesler, E. Kane, and Bobby Ryan of note, which I was a little surprised by to be honest considering there would be significantly more love and fanfare for these teams in general than the Stars.

Of note tho, is the poll on page 42. P. Kane vs. Benn. Its 97 - 92 in favour of Kane. But what's interesting is Kane was the 1st overall pick from Benn's draft year and I believe he's the only one with more points than Benn in the draft class currently. I know Stars fans don't have a massive presense on these boards. But it would seem that popular opinion would say Benn could be at or very near the level of a 1st overall pick.

Like I said it's not a perfect way to make a judgement call on a players level, but I'm happy with Benn and I'm sure Oil fans will be happy with Yak for many years to come.

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Yes it is.
No, it's really not. 1st overall pick with elite gamebreaking ability is worth a lot more than a #2C with shutdown ability.

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:39 PM
  #54
Pekka Rinne
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I don't see how that's a single tier / level.
There not in the same tier, but I assume he is talking about recent first overalls?

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
So you're generally saying Benn's not a 1st overall talent. Cool, I think most Stars fans accept the notion. However, I did take the time to sift thru some of the polls (so more fan popular opinion I think).

It's not a place I hang out, but I thought it'd be interesting to click thru some of these to see a more objective opinion. I realize it's not perfect, but of the names in the first 42 pages of threads, Benn's name comes up quite frequently. I saw him consistently take down names like Eberle, Kesler, E. Kane, and Bobby Ryan of note, which I was a little surprised by to be honest considering there would be significantly more love and fanfare for these teams in general than the Stars.

Of note tho, is the poll on page 42. P. Kane vs. Benn. Its 97 - 92 in favour of Kane. But what's interesting is Kane was the 1st overall pick from Benn's draft year and I believe he's the only one with more points than Benn in the draft class currently. I know Stars fans don't have a massive presense on these boards. But it would seem that popular opinion would say Benn could be at or very near the level of a 1st overall pick.

Like I said it's not a perfect way to make a judgement call on a players level, but I'm happy with Benn and I'm sure Oil fans will be happy with Yak for many years to come.
Nope, he is actually 5th, behind Kane Gagner Voracek and Perron.
And are you seriously gauging a players skill/ability by a POPULARITY contest on a HF Board? Okay then?

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:47 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
No, it's really not. 1st overall pick with elite gamebreaking ability is worth a lot more than a #2C with shutdown ability.
Funny how people said Couturier had #1C upside coming out but now he's just a #2C.

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Old
11-12-2012, 01:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sir Gary Oak View Post
If you don't like the "watch him play" argument, then don't come into a thread saying that "Player A" is overrated like you're a resident expert or something even though you've never seen the guy play.

Dallas doesn't consider moving Benn although Yakupov would be great to have on the team.
I've seen Benn play before, just not a lot, and I was given the 'watch him play' treatment before I even mentioned my exposure to him, I could just as easily have lied and said I've seen him a ton. This is the problem with this argument, this is a discussion board and just saying, "Well if you watch him you'll realize he's better than x" eliminates all possibility for discussion, every hf debate could boil down to, "nuh-uh, you just don't understand how good my player is because you don't watch him enough!!!" My guess is the majority of the people on the Jamie Benn hype train who aren't Stars fans saw Benn in less than 20 games last year. I'm sorry but a lot of people liking a player is not enough for me to believe he is worth the hype, it takes more to convince me than, "Well THESE people say he's good". For me, I'd like to see more of an argument before I'm convinced, and unfortunately numbers are just about the only objective argument we can present on this website. And I just do not see it in the numbers. I'm sorry if that offends you as a Stars fan, I know numbers aren't absolutely everything but they're a lot more convincing than people just saying he is really good and I should take their word for it. If you want (harder to convince) people to actually buy into the fact that Benn is this incredible player, you need less "Just watch him play!!11" posts and more posts like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
I'd be interested to see who's level you think Benn's value is on so Stars fans can shred it. I understand it's nice to work the numbers on the DEL and KHL and it does present an angle, but until Nail's in NA on an NA sheet of ice against NHLers, it's only hopeful speculation without translation.

Nail's been standout as expected, but not absolute dominant on the smaller ice against the top juniors in this year's Subway Series. A good number of people who are shooting down the Benn proposal in here are Oiler fans. When Benn really started projecting as a top line player, I think some of his coming out party games were against the Oilers in January of 2011. For me, that's when I noticed him really emerge.

Benn's function before fashion if you will. North south, 2 way, physical all-star first line center who can take care of himself if he has to. I can't think of many first line centers cut from the same mold in the current game.

Dallas has taken their time with him, and he's earned each successive role. And part of the this time has been spent moving him from the natural wing position, and converting him to center. But he's continued to improve and considering the year by year strides he's taken moving up the depth chart, he has left a lot of Stars fans wondering/excited/anticipating what his prime will look like with 2 true first line wingers, 1st line minutes and PP time?

Numbers are numbers tho, and it's certainly the easiest and most common measuring stick for first line centers. But if you ask a Stars fan which was more exciting or better bang for you buck to watch: Jamie Benn's 63 point, + 15 all-star season or Brad Richards 91 point, don't leave the ice, don't even look at the bench on a PP, - 12 all-star season from the year before... It's hands down Benn's season last year, and the team and his teammates around him achieved the same results as when Richards was top dog chizzeling secondary PP assists.
I'd say Benn is somewhere in between Logan Couture and Jordan Eberle for me... I appreciate the fact that you've actually made an attempt to formulate an argument for Benn rather than just berate me. I don't think that he isn't a great player, I'm just not sure he should be valued as highly as he is. Yakupov is absolutely unproven at the NHL level, I understand that, but he is so highly touted that I expect him to be a better than Benn. Of course he wouldn't be the first player to be hyped, drafted high, and fail, but history shows that more often than not the 1st overall pick becomes a better player than what Jamie Benn has proven to be so far (IMO), especially where scouting is at today.

Benn at 23: 71GP 26G 37A 63P 0.89PPG (best season)

These are the forwards that were drafted 1st overall most recently (excluding Hall and Nuge since they're still both developing and haven't reached Benn's age):

Tavares at 21: 82GP 31G 50A 81P 0.99PPG (best season)
Stamkos at 21: 82GP 60G 37A 97P 1.18PPG (best season)
Kane at 23: 82GP 23G 43A 66P 0.80PPG (worst season, best season was 1.07PPG)
Crosby at 23: 41GP 32G 34A 66P 1.61PPG (sorta best season, no explanation needed)
Ovechkin at 23: 79GP 56G 54A 110P 1.39PPG (best season at that point)
Nash at 23: 80GP 38G 31A 69P 0.86PPG (best season at that point was 1.00PPG)
Kovalchk at 23: 82GP 42G 34A 76P 0.93PPG (best season at that point was 1.26PPG)


Okay, I just realized that Benn was 22 when he had his most recent season...

I'm not going to post all the stats but Kane was 1.00PPG at 22, Crosby was 1.35PPG, Ovie was 1.37PPG, Nash was 0.76PPG, Kovalchuk was 1.26PPG. So you could say Benn's season was better than Nash's on the list, 1/7 guys, but Nash had also posted a point per game season and led the NHL in goals at that point.

Again, I'm not saying Benn isn't good, it's just to me it doesn't seem like he is quite on this level. Every guy on this list had a better season than Benn at his age. I guess you could argue that 1st overall picks are typically more developed and NHL ready when they're drafted, which is true, so maybe Benn could get better, but personally I take my money on the 1st overall pick. Benn could have a better career than Nash and maybe he could be better than Kane, but I think all the other guys are clearly on a level above Benn. Whether Yakupov will be or not remains to be seen, and obviously not all 1st overall picks are equal, but I think it does speak for the pedigree of the player you're getting more often than not.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  #58
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I'd rather hang on to Yak.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #59
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Do not blame Dallas for not wanting to do that, but the value I think is closer then what most people are saying.
For the Philly deal I do not get how Philly fans would not want that deal. Yes Couts had a solid season, but imagine Yak and Giroux on a line together.

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11-12-2012, 03:01 PM
  #60
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JN should totally do that move. It's not like he hasn't made trades with the consideration of Benn.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by nzoilerfan View Post
Dallas won't give up Benn. I think the Yak for Couts deal would work though. PHI gets the better player in the deal over the long term (not right now) and EDM fills out their top sixes needs. Couts would be the perfect compliment to RNH down the middle. With Hartikainen tracking well to be able to add size to the top six as well.
Philly doesn't work on the trade for the future, wait & develop model.
Every year is the win now mode.

As you say, Yak will likely be better in the future (@ least offensively) but Couts is better now.
Therefore it's doubtful Homer would pull the trigger on that trade.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:23 PM
  #62
Karitimes
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And are you seriously gauging a players skill/ability by a POPULARITY contest on a HF Board? Okay then?

Okay yourself bud.

Did I not tread lightly on that? It's a fairly avid base of hockey fans on here, and I'd say Dallas is on the low end of fan representation... So yes I did. Hope you'll be okay.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
Okay yourself bud.

Did I not tread lightly on that? It's a fairly avid base of hockey fans on here, and I'd say Dallas is on the low end of fan representation... So yes I did. Hope you'll be okay.
HF Boards loves Jamie Benn.

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Old
11-12-2012, 05:37 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Philly doesn't work on the trade for the future, wait & develop model.
Every year is the win now mode.

As you say, Yak will likely be better in the future (@ least offensively) but Couts is better now.
Therefore it's doubtful Homer would pull the trigger on that trade.
Trading Carter and Richards for 8th overall and B.Schenn says you're probably wrong.

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Old
11-12-2012, 05:42 PM
  #65
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EDM is not trading Yak straight up for either of those players; DAL or PHI would have to add. End of talk

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Old
11-12-2012, 08:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Trading Carter and Richards for 8th overall and B.Schenn says you're probably wrong.
Yet they didn't miss a beat.

For those people with the draft pick argument, wasn't Couturier supposed to be battling with RNH for #1 before he got mono? Last I checked, he got better!

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:06 PM
  #67
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The Oilers should stay away from any deals that acquire Benn. He has already stated that he has no desire to play in a Canadian market. Whether that's because he's quite shy or some other factor, the Oilers would be smart to stay out of any deals with Benn.

It makes no sense to give up assets to get a player that doesn't want to be there.

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:25 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Trading Carter and Richards for 8th overall and B.Schenn says you're probably wrong.
& Simmonds, 2nd in 2012 (part of the deal that added Grossmann), Voracek & a 3rd rounder (Cousins).

BTW, that 8th overall is Couturier.


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11-12-2012, 09:33 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
& Simmonds, 2nd in 2012 (part of the deal that added Grossmann), Voracek & a 3rd rounder (Cousins).

BTW, that 8th overall is Couturier.

Oh, so you are aware of those trades. I wasn't sure after you said Philly wouldn't make a trade for futures.

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11-12-2012, 09:59 PM
  #70
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Eberle+MPS+some other crap for Benn. That's about it.

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11-12-2012, 10:04 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Oh, so you are aware of those trades. I wasn't sure after you said Philly wouldn't make a trade for futures.
Partially it was to add cap space/dollars for the "Universal Goalie".

That still has me steamed.
________________________________
Vorachek & Simmonds weren't futures BTW. A big step down from the 2 we gave up but at least good players.

Now there's no need to trade an established center on EL for a "possible all-star" winger on EL.

There are more teams looking for centers then there are looking for wingers. This thread is about adding 1 to Edmonton. Worst case scenario is if overloaded @ C they can convert to wing. If wingers could convert to center as easily the Oilers could just move 1 of their "super stars".
Edmonton is enamored of their 1/1 picks but don't seem to realize that a pile of talented but small wingers do not equate a balanced (or even good) team when there is no center depth after RNH (if healthy), a less then great defense & suspect goal tending. MOD


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Old
11-12-2012, 10:05 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Philly doesn't work on the trade for the future, wait & develop model.
Every year is the win now mode.

As you say, Yak will likely be better in the future (@ least offensively) but Couts is better now.
Therefore it's doubtful Homer would pull the trigger on that trade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
& Simmonds, 2nd in 2012 (part of the deal that added Grossmann), Voracek & a 3rd rounder (Cousins).

BTW, that 8th overall is Couturier.

Quote:
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Oh, so you are aware of those trades. I wasn't sure after you said Philly wouldn't make a trade for futures.
Haha this is awesome. Got owned.

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Old
11-12-2012, 11:31 PM
  #73
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Most Oiler fans that looked at the possibility of these trades would laugh... Neither player is near the skill level of Yakupov. There was a reason he was chosen 1st overall despite the Oilers being desperate for a number 1 defensemen

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:31 AM
  #74
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Most Oiler fans that looked at the possibility of these trades would laugh... Neither player is near the skill level of Yakupov. There was a reason he was chosen 1st overall despite the Oilers being desperate for a number 1 defensemen
Offensively, yes Yakupov is superior. However, I think Benn will narrow the gap.
Defensively, Yakupov is so far behind these two it isn't funny.
Physically, same as above.

Yak wins 1/3 here. The Oilers have more than just a desperate need for a #1D. They need a big 2C just as much if not more.

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11-13-2012, 12:56 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
I'd be interested to see who's level you think Benn's value is on so Stars fans can shred it. I understand it's nice to work the numbers on the DEL and KHL and it does present an angle, but until Nail's in NA on an NA sheet of ice against NHLers, it's only hopeful speculation without translation.

Nail's been standout as expected, but not absolute dominant on the smaller ice against the top juniors in this year's Subway Series. A good number of people who are shooting down the Benn proposal in here are Oiler fans. When Benn really started projecting as a top line player, I think some of his coming out party games were against the Oilers in January of 2011. For me, that's when I noticed him really emerge.

Benn's function before fashion if you will. North south, 2 way, physical all-star first line center who can take care of himself if he has to. I can't think of many first line centers cut from the same mold in the current game.

Dallas has taken their time with him, and he's earned each successive role. And part of the this time has been spent moving him from the natural wing position, and converting him to center. But he's continued to improve and considering the year by year strides he's taken moving up the depth chart, he has left a lot of Stars fans wondering/excited/anticipating what his prime will look like with 2 true first line wingers, 1st line minutes and PP time?

Numbers are numbers tho, and it's certainly the easiest and most common measuring stick for first line centers. But if you ask a Stars fan which was more exciting or better bang for you buck to watch: Jamie Benn's 63 point, + 15 all-star season or Brad Richards 91 point, don't leave the ice, don't even look at the bench on a PP, - 12 all-star season from the year before... It's hands down Benn's season last year, and the team and his teammates around him achieved the same results as when Richards was top dog chizzeling secondary PP assists.
Solid post. I agree all around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Benn at 23: 71GP 26G 37A 63P 0.89PPG (best season)

These are the forwards that were drafted 1st overall most recently (excluding Hall and Nuge since they're still both developing and haven't reached Benn's age):

Tavares at 21: 82GP 31G 50A 81P 0.99PPG (best season)
Stamkos at 21: 82GP 60G 37A 97P 1.18PPG (best season)
Kane at 23: 82GP 23G 43A 66P 0.80PPG (worst season, best season was 1.07PPG)
Crosby at 23: 41GP 32G 34A 66P 1.61PPG (sorta best season, no explanation needed)
Ovechkin at 23: 79GP 56G 54A 110P 1.39PPG (best season at that point)
Nash at 23: 80GP 38G 31A 69P 0.86PPG (best season at that point was 1.00PPG)
Kovalchk at 23: 82GP 42G 34A 76P 0.93PPG (best season at that point was 1.26PPG)


Okay, I just realized that Benn was 22 when he had his most recent season...

I'm not going to post all the stats but Kane was 1.00PPG at 22, Crosby was 1.35PPG, Ovie was 1.37PPG, Nash was 0.76PPG, Kovalchuk was 1.26PPG. So you could say Benn's season was better than Nash's on the list, 1/7 guys, but Nash had also posted a point per game season and led the NHL in goals at that point.

Again, I'm not saying Benn isn't good, it's just to me it doesn't seem like he is quite on this level. Every guy on this list had a better season than Benn at his age. I guess you could argue that 1st overall picks are typically more developed and NHL ready when they're drafted, which is true, so maybe Benn could get better, but personally I take my money on the 1st overall pick. Benn could have a better career than Nash and maybe he could be better than Kane, but I think all the other guys are clearly on a level above Benn. Whether Yakupov will be or not remains to be seen, and obviously not all 1st overall picks are equal, but I think it does speak for the pedigree of the player you're getting more often than not.
I'm not going to berate you because to me it sounds like you're a pretty knowledgeable fan of the sport, and if I were a fan of any team other than a Pacific division team I could see myself saying some of the same things you are. The problem is that I can't unsee what I've seen from Benn. Part of the reason the "hype train" seems a bit overdone from an outsider's perspective is because there may be the inclination to think it's entirely based on tantalizing offensive traits. The thing is, to those of us who have had the luxury of watching him for most of his career (and before) the best parts about his game are those you can't see in a highlight or a handful of viewings. His consistency in doing the little things and his attention to detail in all zones is admirable and what you build winning teams around.

Of all the players I see him regularly compared to I don't see enough of my personal favorite comparison; he reminds me more of Zetterberg than any other player, only with more of a physical edge (note: I am not saying he is now or will be as good as Zetterberg at his best). He's good enough defensively to play the role Zetterberg is tasked with in the playoffs as well - head to head against the other team's top scoring line. THAT is the allure of a player like Benn, not how many points he has scored, especially when it's pretty clear to anybody who watches him regularly that the grace you give him to "maybe get better" is not near gracious enough.

The trade proposal is something that got me thinking because hey, who wouldn't want a guy with Yakupov's pedigree. I think he'll score and score quite a bit in the NHL. The problem is if you remove Benn from the equation in Dallas we are left with virtually no center depth.

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