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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-12-2012, 03:15 PM
  #551
Whileee
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Tanger to bring 85 new stores to Westgate in Glendale

http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...-glendale.html

Tanger, they said, should make Westgate less dependent on the fate of Jobing.com Arena, which remains iced in controversy as the city continues to try to work out a deal with potential Phoenix Coyotes buyer Greg Jamison.

Glendale leaders have spent the past three years seeking a buyer to keep the professional hockey franchise and the fans in the city. One potential buyer after another dropped out of negotiations in that time.

Tanger Outlets did not seek any financial help from the city. Instead, the mall is expected to generate $2.5 million in annual sales tax. The Tanger project cost about $76 million to build, company officials said.


Amazing how viable businesses don't need handouts from the CoG.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/g...-glendale.html

Quote:
Something always seemed to be missing at Westgate City Center, Glendale’s signature entertainment and shopping district: critical mass.

The crowds from nearby sports venues and a movie theater were sporadic, not reliable enough to fill Westgate’s restaurants, bars and concert events on a regular basis.

That could all change Thursday, when Tanger Outlets Westgate opens nearly 85 stores. The mall will be a critical third anchor, along with Jobing.com Arena and University of Phoenix Stadium, for the Westgate complex. Up to 5 million shoppers will go to Tanger each year, according to the mall owner’s projections.

...Tanger Outlets did not seek any financial help from the city. Instead, the mall is expected to generate $2.5 million in annual sales tax.
There goes one of the central planks in the rationale for the Coyotes subsidy.

Also, the COG already has plans for the $2.5 million in new sales tax revenue generated by Tanger... they can use it to pay off the deferred annual costs for the $50 million in subsidies provided to the NHL over the past two years.

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11-12-2012, 03:15 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Tanger to bring 85 new stores to Westgate...Tanger Outlets did not seek any financial help from the city. Instead, the mall is expected to generate $2.5 million in annual sales tax. The Tanger project cost about $76 million to build, company officials said.[/I]... Amazing how viable businesses don't need handouts from the CoG.
... unfortunately, the exiting Mayor & Council seemed to have had a problem with the concept of "Big Box" at, near or around Westgate (in addition to the Tohonos which was just plain dumb IMO). They appear to have subscribed to Ellmans' vision of "high-end boutique" full of independents, specialty shops. Like LA's Rodeo Drive; West Edmonton Mall meets Toronto's Hazleton Lanes in Yorkville. All Armani & Lauren, Bulgari & Cartier. Usurping Scottsdales pre-eminence with a glittering Faberge' Jewel of a sports, entertainment, shopping & dining destination that caters to the well heeled. "Exclusive" as opposed to being "inclusive" as it should be. Usually when one Big Box moves in, more follow, which is exactly what Westgate & Glendale so desperately needs.

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11-12-2012, 03:20 PM
  #553
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Sometimes I don't slow down and discuss the nuances enough.
.....
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Thanks for the post CF. Did you find out any info on the Goldwater vs. Glendale [CV2009-020757] court date last week? I have not seen any news come out of this court date. What happened?

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11-12-2012, 03:42 PM
  #554
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Is it an advantage or disadvantage for the Coyotes if the entire season is lost?

Pro

-More time for two week deadlines

Con

-People around Jobing get screwed out of business.

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11-12-2012, 03:42 PM
  #555
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Thanks for the more in-depth analysis.



Sure, why not go all out on this? Moreover, I think that they shouldn't try to find out who will actually purchase the Coyotes and benefit from the bloated AMF. That would ruin the surprise for the incoming mayor and council.
I would agree with this, only if G.J. assures council that he has Glendale's best interests at heart.


Last edited by Mr V: 11-12-2012 at 03:48 PM.
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11-12-2012, 04:00 PM
  #556
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I would agree with this, only if G.J. assures council that he has Glendale's best interests at heart.
... well, excuse me Mr.V, but demanding the extortionary fee's he's demanding, $320M over 20 years, $15-$17M in year one alone, how is that in anyway indicative that he "has the best interests of the city" at heart? Its unconscionable. The richest "Arena Management Fee" on the Planet. Even $6M base-line with performance bonuses is high, an amount Glendale has ascribed as being "reasonable".

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11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
  #557
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Originally posted by Gotaf7
Has Gongdale found out who is trying to purchase the NHL Coyotes?
Not that I know of .... rumors of the T.O. nation... but contrast Glendale's reluctance to find out about who their potential new partners are with Markham's council. Two very different approaches.

Quote:
Councillors seek probe of promoter in Markham’s proposed NHL-size arena
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...nhl-size-arena


Two Markham councillors want the city to take a much harder look at the promoter of the city’s plan for a NHL-size arena despite the mayor’s strong support of him.

Councillors Jim Jones and Don Hamilton have confirmed they will ask council within the next two weeks to probe the background of Graeme Roustan, president of GTA Centre LP, the proposed builders and operators of a $325-million arena near Hwy 407 and Kennedy Rd.

“We’re making a phenomenal financial commitment so it’s imperative that we understand who we are dealing with,” said Jones, a council veteran. “I don’t see evidence of any proper due diligence in the project reports so far.”

“There was no personal information about anyone (in the reports),” added Hamilton. “If we are spending $325 million, we have a responsibility to our residents to do a thorough background check of all our prospective partners. I’m requesting an investigation of our partners take place.”

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11-12-2012, 04:13 PM
  #558
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... well, excuse me Mr.V, but demanding the extortionary fee's he's demanding, $320M over 20 years, $15-$17M in year one alone, how is that in anyway indicative that he "has the best interests of the city" at heart? Its unconscionable. The richest "Arena Management Fee" on the Planet. Even $6M base-line with performance bonuses is high, an amount Glendale has ascribed as being "reasonable".
K - He knows that. The post that he quoted was a tongue in cheek list of all the eyes-covered, trust-the-devil decisions CoG has made through this whole mess. He just thought that needed to be added - like NHL telling CoG that they wouldn't need the 25M anyway "it's just insurance."

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11-12-2012, 04:13 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... well, excuse me Mr.V, but demanding the extortionary fee's he's demanding, $320M over 20 years, $15-$17M in year one alone, how is that in anyway indicative that he "has the best interests of the city" at heart? Its unconscionable. The richest "Arena Management Fee" on the Planet. Even $6M base-line with performance bonuses is high, an amount Glendale has ascribed as being "reasonable".
Sorry. Guess I should have added the

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11-12-2012, 04:30 PM
  #560
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Sorry. Guess I should have added the
... was seriously wondering. Actions speak louder than words. No way no how can you look upon the deal negotiated as being conscionable. I doubt if it even passes muster in terms of the basic tenets of Contract Law.

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11-12-2012, 04:37 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Is it an advantage or disadvantage for the Coyotes if the entire season is lost?

Pro

-More time for two week deadlines

Con

-People around Jobing get screwed out of business.
surely by now we should have some empirical evidence to either support or refute this oft-cited claim. it's now been two months since the start of the season. doesnt anyone know of anyone who works in these bars, restaurants? has this affected them? to what extent are they suffering?

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11-12-2012, 04:41 PM
  #562
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surely by now we should have some empirical evidence to either support or refute this oft-cited claim. it's now been two months since the start of the season. doesnt anyone know of anyone who works in these bars, restaurants? has this affected them? to what extent are they suffering?
Business, especially at the restaurants, is way down without the Coyotes. That's common knowledge. I don't see anyone at Westgate actively wishing for the Coyotes to leave. They've been awfully supportive, for good reason. Tangier opening up next door helps ease the loss, but all of that retail is better off if there are Coyote fans milling about on gameday. Weekend games tend to turn into an all day thing, where fans hang out, shop and eat at Westgate.

The Coyotes would be a tremendous loss for the area. The area exists, in part, because of the team in the first place. What we're now down to is more or less a philosophical question; should cities be in the sports business? Glendale said yes to that a long time ago, which is why you see two amazing facilities, surrounded by retail, in a glorified suburb. To turn back on that now is childish and shortsighted.

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11-12-2012, 04:53 PM
  #563
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Business, especially at the restaurants, is way down without the Coyotes. That's common knowledge. I don't see anyone at Westgate actively wishing for the Coyotes to leave. They've been awfully supportive, for good reason. Tangier opening up next door helps ease the loss, but all of that retail is better off if there are Coyote fans milling about on gameday. Weekend games tend to turn into an all day thing, where fans hang out, shop and eat at Westgate.

The Coyotes would be a tremendous loss for the area. The area exists, in part, because of the team in the first place. What we're now down to is more or less a philosophical question; should cities be in the sports business? Glendale said yes to that a long time ago, which is why you see two amazing facilities, surrounded by retail, in a glorified suburb. To turn back on that now is childish and shortsighted.
thanks. im not tapped into the common knowledge down there so I appreciate your reply. do you have a sense as to whether the loss of business is likely to cause some of these places to actually close?

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11-12-2012, 04:58 PM
  #564
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... was seriously wondering. Actions speak louder than words. No way no how can you look upon the deal negotiated as being conscionable. I doubt if it even passes muster in terms of the basic tenets of Contract Law.
The actions of COG, from the beginning of the BK seems to be a carefully crafted plot to leave those of us who read the BOH shaking our heads in bewilderment. It has certainly kept me perplexed.(as well as entertained) I don't see how the citizens of Glendale however, are going to have anything to smile about once all the cheques are cashed, and all the bills are paid. This whole episode of events is simply mind boggling.

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11-12-2012, 05:02 PM
  #565
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do you have a sense as to whether the loss of business is likely to cause some of these places to actually close?
The ones that are left, in theory, should be strong enough to withstand the lockout. But they are also more unique draws, like Yardhouse, Margaritaville and Saddle Ranch. Retail has already left, and a few restaurants have closed. People have lost jobs, wages and had hours cut pretty badly.

http://westgatecitycenter.com/shop/interactive-map/

Looking at the map, kind of sad to see a coffee shop I went to on gameday is gone. During a weekend Red-Wings Coyote game, the place was absolutely flooded. Restaurant wait times were insane. It was a great place to be, especially for fans. You could go to the various bars before games, chill near the fountain or do whatever. But Westgate is pretty much like every other mall in AZ right now; half empty.

http://www.shopdesertridge.com/shop/interactive-map/

Desert Ridge was wildly successful and Westgate was meant to be that 10x. People forget that Westgate is about 15-20% the size it was originally intended to be. The real estate crash really hurt the plans, while the lingering affects still hurt business. Glendale currently isn't the population center it was forecast to be. Having one of the main draws like the Coyotes gone or sidelined by the lockout is just salt in the wound.

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11-12-2012, 05:09 PM
  #566
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Business, especially at the restaurants, is way down without the Coyotes. That's common knowledge. I don't see anyone at Westgate actively wishing for the Coyotes to leave. They've been awfully supportive, for good reason. Tangier opening up next door helps ease the loss, but all of that retail is better off if there are Coyote fans milling about on gameday. Weekend games tend to turn into an all day thing, where fans hang out, shop and eat at Westgate.

The Coyotes would be a tremendous loss for the area. The area exists, in part, because of the team in the first place. What we're now down to is more or less a philosophical question; should cities be in the sports business? Glendale said yes to that a long time ago, which is why you see two amazing facilities, surrounded by retail, in a glorified suburb. To turn back on that now is childish and shortsighted.
I know I have been on the opposite side of this issue from you but I have to say I really feel for the people who have been living this saga for the past couple of years. It's crazy enough popping in every once in a while to see whats up, but to think of the people who need Westgate for their livelihoods, and who live, work and own property in Glendale. I would imagine they would just like to get a resolution to this once and for all, and then try to pick up the pieces either way.

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11-12-2012, 05:20 PM
  #567
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This whole episode of events is simply mind boggling.
... its insane. The Parallax View. Not even a major city like New York, Toronto, LA or anywhere else would even dream of it. Yet here you have what is effectively a "Town" of less than 300,000 souls going for broke. Madness.

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11-12-2012, 05:57 PM
  #568
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... was seriously wondering. Actions speak louder than words. No way no how can you look upon the deal negotiated as being conscionable. I doubt if it even passes muster in terms of the basic tenets of Contract Law.
Exactly right, Killion. The draft lease agreement (June 2012) was tripartite: 1) City of Glendale; 2) Arena Manager and; 3) Team Owner. Now, for all we know, Jamison will represent the Arena Manager and the Team Owner, but it isn't clear what his relationship with the Team Owner is unless and until those arrangements are clarified. Is Glendale really prepared to try to push through this $320 million deal (more than that, if you consider the transfer of arena parking rights) without actually knowing and letting the public know who the "Team Owner" is?

More importantly, why has Jamison been reluctant to provide this information at this late stage, and why have the city officials and supportive council members been afraid to ask?

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11-12-2012, 06:04 PM
  #569
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Business, especially at the restaurants, is way down without the Coyotes. That's common knowledge. I don't see anyone at Westgate actively wishing for the Coyotes to leave. They've been awfully supportive, for good reason. Tangier opening up next door helps ease the loss, but all of that retail is better off if there are Coyote fans milling about on gameday. Weekend games tend to turn into an all day thing, where fans hang out, shop and eat at Westgate.

The Coyotes would be a tremendous loss for the area. The area exists, in part, because of the team in the first place. What we're now down to is more or less a philosophical question; should cities be in the sports business? Glendale said yes to that a long time ago, which is why you see two amazing facilities, surrounded by retail, in a glorified suburb. To turn back on that now is childish and shortsighted.
A couple of things. First, based on the latest projections the Tanger retail operation is anticipated to bring in 10 times as many shoppers as there are Coyotes fans annually. So, Coyotes fans would constitute about 10% of the traffic. Moreover, other than several bars and pubs, I can't see how many of the other Westgate businesses benefit from the Coyotes. Not many go for a "game and a movie" night, or shop for cell phones and other retail goods just before heading to a hockey game.

Second, I completely agree that cities should have the right to invest in whatever facilities and entertainment that they wish. The problem in Glendale with the Coyotes is three-fold. They are bound by the "gift clause" of the Arizona constitution which prohibits them from providing subsidies to private interests. They have to be able to afford the costs, balanced with other civic necessities. They need to use due process, which includes being honest with the public and in their financial dealings. If Glendale didn't have significant problems in all three of these domains, this deal would have been done long ago.

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11-12-2012, 06:08 PM
  #570
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...More importantly, why has Jamison been reluctant to provide this information at this late stage, and why have the city officials and supportive council members been afraid to ask?
Dont know Whileee. Its confounding. No one does business like this. Its' insane. Who in their right mind just blithely signs on as an elected official or not to a $300M+++ dealeo without verification? Who invests in such a scheme without having ulterior motives, like the Tohonos for example? This is beyond "spooked out". So what gives? I cant help but feel we are missing a key ingredient. What that is, Im not sure...

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11-12-2012, 07:00 PM
  #571
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I know I have been on the opposite side of this issue from you but I have to say I really feel for the people who have been living this saga for the past couple of years. It's crazy enough popping in every once in a while to see whats up, but to think of the people who need Westgate for their livelihoods, and who live, work and own property in Glendale. I would imagine they would just like to get a resolution to this once and for all, and then try to pick up the pieces either way.
For years all we hear from the CoG is that Westgate needs the Coyotes to survive, Westgate is doomed if the Coyotes leave, etc. ..... yet when you look at the recent expansion in Westgate and the projected numbers ( 5,000,000 customers per year ) it is starting to look more like the Coyotes need Westgate, not Westgate needs the Coyotes.

If the reports are correct, Westgate looks like it will be fine with or without the hockey team.

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11-12-2012, 07:06 PM
  #572
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The ones that are left, in theory, should be strong enough to withstand the lockout. But they are also more unique draws, like Yardhouse, Margaritaville and Saddle Ranch. Retail has already left, and a few restaurants have closed. People have lost jobs, wages and had hours cut pretty badly.

http://westgatecitycenter.com/shop/interactive-map/


http://www.shopdesertridge.com/shop/interactive-map/

.
Margaritaville closes at 10 pm on weeknights so I don't expect they saw any after game traffic. The Yardhose closes at midnight except weekends so it doesn't seem like they relied on much after game traffic. Barely enough time to order some food and have a bevy and the place is closed for the night.

I don't doubt people dined here before games. I saw it for myself but the actual numbers pale in comparison to the dire straits predicted if the Coyotes depart. If these places had any amount of Coyote traffic they would be open until 2am after games on weeknights. You don't close your doors if customers are about to walk through.

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11-12-2012, 07:10 PM
  #573
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Exactly right, Killion. The draft lease agreement (June 2012) was tripartite: 1) City of Glendale; 2) Arena Manager and; 3) Team Owner. Now, for all we know, Jamison will represent the Arena Manager and the Team Owner, but it isn't clear what his relationship with the Team Owner is unless and until those arrangements are clarified. Is Glendale really prepared to try to push through this $320 million deal (more than that, if you consider the transfer of arena parking rights) without actually knowing and letting the public know who the "Team Owner" is?

More importantly, why has Jamison been reluctant to provide this information at this late stage, and why have the city officials and supportive council members been afraid to ask?
The current CoG is playing the clock. They know or suspect the deal is dead but instead of admiting it they rather let it blow in the face of the new CoG. Jamison is doing a favor to Gary so he going to hang around until told to close or walk. The NHL wanted an owner willing to eat a year in Glendale before relocating PKP did not want that so they are stuck there another year.

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11-12-2012, 07:20 PM
  #574
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The current CoG is playing the clock. They know or suspect the deal is dead but instead of admiting it they rather let it blow in the face of the new CoG. Jamison is doing a favor to Gary so he going to hang around until told to close or walk. The NHL wanted an owner willing to eat a year in Glendale before relocating PKP did not want that so they are stuck there another year.
... coming from a "cold, dark place" madhi or wishful thinking?

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11-12-2012, 07:31 PM
  #575
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... coming from a "cold, dark place" madhi or wishful thinking?
We all float down here.....

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