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2007 NHL Draft: The 16 Defensemen Selected Before PK Subban

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Old
11-12-2012, 12:57 PM
  #26
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The Rangers had their version of Subban on the left side, in the form of Del Zotto (who out-scored McDonagh by more than a handful of points), and he still didn't get as many votes as McDonagh for either all-star squad or the Norris. I get that you believe it strongly, but you can guarantee nothing, I'm afraid.
Del Zotto was a turnover machine despite getting a good amount of points, he's a very effective PMD. Subban, although habing less points, truly blossomed into a legitimate number one defenseman halfway through the season and that was just a glimpse of his true potential.

This is getting a bit ridiculous.. I hope hockey starts soon. Depth chart wise Subban on the Rangers would be their number one defenseman, and McDonagh their number two.

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11-12-2012, 01:13 PM
  #27
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Del Zotto was a turnover machine despite getting a good amount of points, he's a very effective PMD. Subban, although habing less points, truly blossomed into a legitimate number one defenseman halfway through the season and that was just a glimpse of his true potential.
The bolded exactly describes the entirety of Subban's career so far, perhaps outside of the last half season to which you allude. Hence the loose comparison.

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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
This is getting a bit ridiculous.. I hope hockey starts soon. Depth chart wise Subban on the Rangers would be their number one defenseman, and McDonagh their number two.
Now, is that because they're both RH shots, do you think? Wouldn't it then also be dictated by the forward lineup that coaches have to work with, and/or the style of game they want to play? If Del Zotto remains their best LH defenseman, do you think it necessarily makes sense to play him with Subban on the first pairing, or does a more "balanced" top two pairings make more sense? Is there a reason that guys with a more "boring" style like McDonagh and Pietrangelo end up with more icetime than more "dynamic" players like Del Zotto or Shattenkirk?

Again, I love the passionate guarantees. I just don't see the value in not giving credit where credit is due, just because a bunch of people believe doing otherwise is demonstrative of "failing to move on" or "crying".

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11-12-2012, 01:26 PM
  #28
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The bolded exactly describes the entirety of Subban's career so far, perhaps outside of the last half season to which you allude. Hence the loose comparison.
No it doesn't. There is a distinct difference between Subban and Del Zotto and that's being relieable in their own end. Subban in his first season was on the shutdown pairing with Hal Gill and let's not pretend that Gill did the massive lifting there. This last season same thing except he had a rough start again but elevated his play once again and ended up on a similar level defensively as Gorges (source: Boucher scouting reports) who is regarded by many as one of the most reliable shutdown defensemen in the league but put out nearly identical offensive numbers as in his first season where he was more of a loose cannon. Del Zotto is just nowhere near him defensively, and offensively they are close but Del Zotto only beat him in points by a small margin because he had better defensemen getting the hard minutes ahead of him. Subban is most definitely not just an offensive PMD, however loose the translation may be, he is a complete player.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Now, is that because they're both RH shots, do you think? Wouldn't it then also be dictated by the forward lineup that coaches have to work with, and/or the style of game they want to play? If Del Zotto remains their best LH defenseman, do you think it necessarily makes sense to play him with Subban on the first pairing, or does a more "balanced" top two pairings make more sense? Is there a reason that guys with a more "boring" style like McDonagh and Pietrangelo end up with more icetime than more "dynamic" players like Del Zotto or Shattenkirk?

Again, I love the passionate guarantees. I just don't see the value in not giving credit where credit is due, just because a bunch of people believe doing otherwise is demonstrative of "failing to move on" or "crying".
I don't see what being a right hand shot has to do with it as I said he would be first on their depth chart as far as defensemen go. Him being paired with McDonagh would be devastating too.

I don't know what you're talking about in the last part as I have made no mention of you crying or failing to move on, I was simply responding to your opinion on Subban and Del Zotto which I felt the need to intervene on.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 11-12-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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11-12-2012, 05:41 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
No it doesn't.
Well, yeah it does. Let me remind you, first, that Subban was 3rd among all defensemen last year (Del Zotto 92nd, with less than half), and then remind you of exactly what you said:

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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
Del Zotto was a turnover machine despite getting a good amount of points, he's a very effective PMD.
Wait, who fits that description better between the two? You brought up the notion that either is a turnover machine that more or less gets excused by the number of points they put up, not me, but since you brought it up...

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I don't see what being a right hand shot has to do with it as I said he would be first on their depth chart as far as defensemen go. Him being paired with McDonagh would be devastating too.
See, fantasy hockey is fun, because you can just load up on who you like and forget about the fact that the availability of RH shots has impacted how lines/pairing are constructed forever. But let's back up here. It's just your opinion that Subban would be ahead of Staal, Girardi, Del Zotto, and McDonagh if inserted into that mix.

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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
I don't know what you're talking about in the last part as I have made no mention of you crying or failing to move on, I was simply responding to your opinion on Subban and Del Zotto which I felt the need to intervene on.
Well, I've received an intervention. I guess everyone needs one at some point in their lives. You... complete me. Honestly though, I never really accused you directly of that opinion (in fact, I said "a bunch of people" - whether or not you're included is irrelevant), and you should be aware that it has been openly expressed in precisely those terms in this thread, and others.

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11-12-2012, 07:29 PM
  #30
poetryinmotion
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, yeah it does. Let me remind you, first, that Subban was 3rd among all defensemen last year (Del Zotto 92nd, with less than half), and then remind you of exactly what you said:

Wait, who fits that description better between the two? You brought up the notion that either is a turnover machine that more or less gets excused by the number of points they put up, not me, but since you brought it up...

See, fantasy hockey is fun, because you can just load up on who you like and forget about the fact that the availability of RH shots has impacted how lines/pairing are constructed forever. But let's back up here. It's just your opinion that Subban would be ahead of Staal, Girardi, Del Zotto, and McDonagh if inserted into that mix.

Well, I've received an intervention. I guess everyone needs one at some point in their lives. You... complete me. Honestly though, I never really accused you directly of that opinion (in fact, I said "a bunch of people" - whether or not you're included is irrelevant), and you should be aware that it has been openly expressed in precisely those terms in this thread, and others.
You can't be serious. You completely ignored my point and dissected phrases however u see fit. I don't see Subban as a PMD which is the main issue here and I don't care for the rest. My argument that he was a turnover machine was largely based on his playoffs performance where he was a turnstile. Subban sure had his ups and downs during the season but he was a beast in his own zone compared to him despite that stat. If I didn't know better I would think you were joking..


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 11-12-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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Old
11-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, yeah it does. Let me remind you, first, that Subban was 3rd among all defensemen last year (Del Zotto 92nd, with less than half), and then remind you of exactly what you said:



Wait, who fits that description better between the two? You brought up the notion that either is a turnover machine that more or less gets excused by the number of points they put up, not me, but since you brought it up...



See, fantasy hockey is fun, because you can just load up on who you like and forget about the fact that the availability of RH shots has impacted how lines/pairing are constructed forever. But let's back up here. It's just your opinion that Subban would be ahead of Staal, Girardi, Del Zotto, and McDonagh if inserted into that mix.



Well, I've received an intervention. I guess everyone needs one at some point in their lives. You... complete me. Honestly though, I never really accused you directly of that opinion (in fact, I said "a bunch of people" - whether or not you're included is irrelevant), and you should be aware that it has been openly expressed in precisely those terms in this thread, and others.
Hey guess what?

Andrei Markov led the league in give aways by defenseman in 07-08 with 92 (more than Subban in 2011-12). Oh hey! Look at that again, Andrei Markov with 102 give aways in 2008-2009 once again leading the league! This simply cannot be true? I always hear how the General is a Top-5 defenseman in the league, non? He must just be a puck-mover since his defense is clearly atrocious due to his give away numbers. Roman Hamrlik as well, he was clearly atrocious being 2nd most in 2009-10, 6th most in 2008-2009 and 10th most in 2007-2008.

Del Zotto would school those guys in the defensive zone. I can't believe Habs fans would even think that they could hold MDZ's jock strap?

The Montreal stat-keeper is notorious for giving out high give away numbers. So don't put much, if any, stock into them.

I'm not going to even reply to the rest, because PiM said most of what I was going to say anyways.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:29 AM
  #32
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Hey guess what?

Andrei Markov led the league in give aways by defenseman in 07-08 with 92 (more than Subban in 2011-12). Oh hey! Look at that again, Andrei Markov with 102 give aways in 2008-2009 once again leading the league! This simply cannot be true? I always hear how the General is a Top-5 defenseman in the league, non? He must just be a puck-mover since his defense is clearly atrocious due to his give away numbers. Roman Hamrlik as well, he was clearly atrocious being 2nd most in 2009-10, 6th most in 2008-2009 and 10th most in 2007-2008.

Del Zotto would school those guys in the defensive zone. I can't believe Habs fans would even think that they could hold MDZ's jock strap?

The Montreal stat-keeper is notorious for giving out high give away numbers. So don't put much, if any, stock into them.

I'm not going to even reply to the rest, because PiM said most of what I was going to say anyways.
Yeah, that's a bunch of strawman for you, and I think somewhere in there I deciphered a bit of sarcasm, but it's hard to tell. I think I'm done here.

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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
You can't be serious. You completely ignored my point and dissected phrases however u see fit. I don't see Subban as a PMD which is the main issue here and I don't care for the rest. My argument that he was a turnover machine was largely based on his playoffs performance where he was a turnstile. Subban sure had his ups and downs during the season but he was a beast in his own zone compared to him despite that stat. If I didn't know better I would think you were joking..
Oh no, I got it. You think Subban is so much more "well-rounded" than Del Zotto that you thought you'd refer to him (Del Zotto) as a puck-moving turnover machine. Well guess what, he had fewer than half of Subban's turnovers, and had more ES goals than PK had goals total, and is actually used in all situations. But oh, now it's because of a playoffs performance? Are you sure it's not just one play, or something else you're grasping at to justify what you said?

Listen, I'd rather have PK, and it's not even close. But if you're going to use stuff like that to support your opinion, or present a counter-argument to someone else, don't expect everyone to let it slide because it would be the fanboy-supportive thing to do.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 11-13-2012 at 02:36 AM.
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Old
11-13-2012, 03:12 AM
  #33
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Galenchyuk be best of both drafts thou. Franchise centre, near impossible to get those, first one we had since Kirk Muller
Muller was in no way, shape, or form a franchise center. We did have one in Turgeon, but we traded him for a 3rd line winger.

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11-13-2012, 04:25 AM
  #34
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Muller was in no way, shape, or form a franchise center.
I think that's splitting hairs, right there. I mean, Muller was a 2nd overall draft pick, and played well enough at 18 to earn Calder votes in the same rookie season as Lemieux, Chelios, Steve Penney, etc. He was NJ's top centre for 5 years before we got him in his prime, and he was our top centre until he was swapped for Turgeon. So... "no way, shape, or form" seems a little harsh. Had durability as an asset for a while there, too.

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11-13-2012, 06:28 AM
  #35
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Muller was in no way, shape, or form a franchise center. We did have one in Turgeon, but we traded him for a 3rd line winger.
He was outstanding those years in Montreal. What a warrior

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11-13-2012, 07:14 AM
  #36
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Only defenseman I'd take over Subban from that list would be Shattenkirk. Not to say McDonaugh would not be on my wish-list, but we're talking about matching styles here. Subban and Shattenkirk play a very similar role, although Subban's defensive play may be a little more developped at this time. McDonaugh had a good season, but his style of play is more of a shut-down defenseman who can also put up points.

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11-13-2012, 06:41 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
This is getting a bit ridiculous.. I hope hockey starts soon. Depth chart wise Subban on the Rangers would be their number one defenseman, and McDonagh their number two.
2011-12 Norris Trophy voting:

6. Dan Girardi 70 pts (2-0-4-6-12)
11. Ryan McDonagh 13 pts (0-0-1-2-2)
12. Michael Del Zotto 5 pts (0-0-0-1-2)

Marc Staal was hurt last year, but he did garner a 5th place vote 2 years ago.

Waaaaayyyyyy too much homerism there buddy. Don't get me wrong, I love Subban's potential but to say he'd be the Rags number 1 defenseman is a little nutty, no offense.

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