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Old
11-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #201
bcjonny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
He probably means the value of Luongo is equivalent to 3-5 1st rounders.
Yes I think that is what I said.


@ACC1224
As for being amusing ... I never relied on you getting it. Any of it.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:42 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Good news then, I found you a potential trade full of first round picks. There's even a few top 10 picks in there.

Luongo
Ballard (for cap reasons)

for

Lecavalier (1st overall)
Brewer (5th overall)
Lee (9th overall)
2013 1st round pick

Canucks get a center, D that can play right now and a future first round pick.
Sure, I guess. No way on earth Tampa does it,, though, until they see what they have in Lindback.

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:51 PM
  #203
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People still think Luongo has a good contract? Seriously?

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:52 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
90% of your own board would say "horrible return, Kadri is a bust and it doesn't help our team now!!" You know i am not making it up.
Hey you are definitely the most level headed leaf fan in this thread. Kadri, Finn, 1st is not a bad return it just does not suit what Van needs now and future. Kadri is still a good prospect just not what Gillis is targeting i.e Hodgson

As I mentioned before

Lombardi, Kulemin, Colbourne, 1st

Or

Bozak, Frattin, Colbourne, 1st

These kind of trades suit Vancouver needs.

Along same value lines of:

Kadri, Finn, 1st

Don't you think?

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Old
11-12-2012, 03:27 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
So you just argued that other factors, say our having another net minder, affect his value and totally dismiss that claim, and yet you're thinking we don't want to see Luongo traded for scraps, and be reminded of that every saturday night...

He's not being moved for scraps anyway, so in a way you're right, just like you're wrong about having Schneider affect his value.

Pay the tab, this isn't some south asian market where you can haggle the price down. If you don't like the price, don't pay, I wish you and the Leafs well.
No I didn't argue that other factor. All I said was the fact CBC shows the Leafs games starting at 7:00 PM EST across Canada shouldn't effect the Canucks decison if Luongo is traded to Toronto. So the fact some Canucks fans might be upset at the sight of seeing Luongo winning games for the Leafs shouldnt' effect the Canucks decision to trade him to us or not.

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11-12-2012, 03:32 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
No I didn't argue that other factor. All I said was the fact CBC shows the Leafs games starting at 7:00 PM EST across Canada shouldn't effect the Canucks decison if Luongo is traded to Toronto. So the fact some Canucks fans might be upset at the sight of seeing Luongo winning games for the Leafs shouldnt' effect the Canucks decision to trade him to us or not.
I don't think that was his main point though or about the decision to or not to, I think it had to do more with us potentially not getting anything of value for Luongo & then having to see Luongo nearly every Sat would make our fan base angry. In that view getting something of value IS necessary in a trade with Tor.

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Old
11-12-2012, 03:46 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
How is that wrong? If the Canucks don't have Schneider they wouldn't even be thinking about trading Luongo, Schneider absolutely affects Luongo's value, if they think he's their guy than the main incentive to trade Luongo is to not have a guy taking up $5.3 mil in cap space to play 30 games a year.
It makes Luongo available, even expendable but it shouldn't lower his value. Again I think Staal, while being far from a perfect comparison (age, contract, position) is a fine example: Being behind two bonfide superstar centers didn't diminish his return, and in fact I seem to remember a few people thinking Carolina paid a little higher. Trading Luongo, or Schneider (the better direct comparison...if one can even be made) works the same way to us, having two doesn't make one cheaper, all it changes is that we are willing to make a move instead of sitting on one, or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
No I didn't argue that other factor. All I said was the fact CBC shows the Leafs games starting at 7:00 PM EST across Canada shouldn't effect the Canucks decison if Luongo is traded to Toronto. So the fact some Canucks fans might be upset at the sight of seeing Luongo winning games for the Leafs shouldnt' effect the Canucks decision to trade him to us or not.
You're right, I saw you post back and misread, my mistake.

And you're right, it won't affect management's decision to pull the trigger, however I think Imagine17 has been on these boards with me too long, as he nailed what I meant:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
I don't think that was his main point though or about the decision to or not to, I think it had to do more with us potentially not getting anything of value for Luongo & then having to see Luongo nearly every Sat would make our fan base angry. In that view getting something of value IS necessary in a trade with Tor.
Bingo.


Now for something that won't be responded to I bet, as it's TL;DR:

I'm not saying I want to rule out a trade with Toronto, but we need something valuable enough to us to make the trade, and with the premium the Leafs have on top six centers (basically Grabovski on this team, maybe Bozak, as I know he is top 6 on Toronto on paper at the moment), futures due to the rebuild (Kadri, Colborne, obvious Rielly and Gardiner, Blacker, Finn, etc) and higher end defenseman or wingers that are better options then what we have for their roles (Kessel, Lupul, JVR, Phaneuf), we don't make good trading partners.

We are getting concessions from the are of futures, which is a weakness of ours, and well not as bad as it was on Toronto a few years ago, I don't feel they are brimming with bluechip prospects. They beat us in terms of the number of likely NHLers, but compared to say Florida or Edmonton, prospects aren't at the same level.

Our main focus is not futures however, but an improved roster. Losing a back up goalie could mean 5-10 losses with someone inexperienced or less talented, so we need at least that sort of impact back.

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Old
11-12-2012, 03:57 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Hey you are definitely the most level headed leaf fan in this thread. Kadri, Finn, 1st is not a bad return it just does not suit what Van needs now and future. Kadri is still a good prospect just not what Gillis is targeting i.e Hodgson

As I mentioned before

Lombardi, Kulemin, Colbourne, 1st

Or

Bozak, Frattin, Colbourne, 1st

These kind of trades suit Vancouver needs.

Along same value lines of:

Kadri, Finn, 1st

Don't you think?
Not speaking to value (i've given up on that), i was just pointing out that most Van fans agreed on Petrovic,Shore and a 1st from FLA....no top 6 guys...no core pieces..yet it seems that the only deal that works from TO had to "help now" with some of OUR core pieces.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not speaking to value (i've given up on that), i was just pointing out that most Van fans agreed on Petrovic,Shore and a 1st from FLA....no top 6 guys...no core pieces..yet it seems that the only deal that works from TO had to "help now" with some of OUR core pieces.
Believe it or not, it's not a slight against Toronto.

Florida is Luongo's preferred destination, and if we can't get fair value for him, we so appreciate what he has done here, if it makes him happier to be in Florida for a low ball return, we'd rather take the hit and send him to his wife and kids.

Personally I think that trade isn't worth much, and I'd rather keep Luongo, but a first in whats assumed to be a deep draft beats a kick in the teeth, and that seems to be one things Toronto fans don't want to surrender, along with Gardiner and Kessel.

Just my thoughts.

EDIT: Also, Florida doesn't have anything we need available. They are a low scoring playoff team last year, trying to pry a Versteeg or a Weiss away would be a fools errand.


Last edited by Cogburn: 11-12-2012 at 04:03 PM. Reason: Forgot a thought.
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Old
11-12-2012, 04:04 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not speaking to value (i've given up on that), i was just pointing out that most Van fans agreed on Petrovic,Shore and a 1st from FLA....no top 6 guys...no core pieces..yet it seems that the only deal that works from TO had to "help now" with some of OUR core pieces.
I'd be okay with either package, but I'd vastly prefer a top-6 forward. Obviously I'd prefer Versteeg form Florida to be included in some way, just like I'd prefer Lupul to be included from Toronto. The question is how much leverage do we have with demanding value in a form that can help us. It's a lot easier for Florida to say "suit yourselves, we have Markstrom" then it is for Toronto to say "we have Scrivens". Not to mention Toronto is generally more pressured to succeed. Losing Lupul and adding Luongo(taking into account the addition of JVR as well) would make Toronto a much better team for the forseeable future.

Again, if our choice was solid prospect, decent prospect, 1st, or keep Luongo indefinitely, I'd take it. But Toronto does have the ability to give up a top-6 forward(Lupul or JVR[Especially if Schenn was offered for Luongo]), and we are perfectly within our right to ask for one as a centrepiece.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:08 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'd be okay with either package, but I'd vastly prefer a top-6 forward. Obviously I'd prefer Versteeg form Florida to be included in some way, just like I'd prefer Lupul to be included from Toronto. The question is how much leverage do we have with demanding value in a form that can help us. It's a lot easier for Florida to say "suit yourselves, we have Markstrom" then it is for Toronto to say "we have Scrivens". Not to mention Toronto is generally more pressured to succeed. Losing Lupul and adding Luongo(taking into account the addition of JVR as well) would make Toronto a much better team for the forseeable future.

Again, if our choice was solid prospect, decent prospect, 1st, or keep Luongo indefinitely, I'd take it. But Toronto does have the ability to give up a top-6 forward(Lupul or JVR[Especially if Schenn was offered for Luongo]), and we are perfectly within our right to ask for one as a centrepiece.
Giving up Lupul is tough...not impossible but tough. It's when some want to add our 1st or one of our top prospects were it becomes a nogo.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:11 PM
  #212
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Giving up Lupul is tough...not impossible but tough. It's when some want to add our 1st or one of our top prospects were it becomes a nogo.
Lupul + 1st conditonal on playoffs or it becomes a 2nd I would do. Given Lupul is an upcoming UFA I think that's more than fair.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:27 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not speaking to value (i've given up on that), i was just pointing out that most Van fans agreed on Petrovic,Shore and a 1st from FLA....no top 6 guys...no core pieces..yet it seems that the only deal that works from TO had to "help now" with some of OUR core pieces.
If there's one team that gets a sweetheart deal for Luongo it's Florida. I don't like the value of the package but I'd accept it only if it was from Florida.

EDM, CHI and TOR (and the mystery team) will all have to pay much more.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:38 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lupul + 1st conditonal on playoffs or it becomes a 2nd I would do. Given Lupul is an upcoming UFA I think that's more than fair.
What's the upside to this as a Canucks fan? Hasn't it become obvious to you that getting players who pile on points with no sense or ability to play defense, who are spoon fed gravy minutes, on non-playoff teams is not the answer to our offensive problems (and note, I mean offensive problems in the 1st world sense...we were still 1st in goals for the West)?

I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole and I don't know why you would.

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Old
11-12-2012, 04:42 PM
  #215
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What's the upside to this as a Canucks fan?

I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole and I don't know why you would.
We get a 1st line playmaking forward and a very good shot at a solid prospect.

Lupul may not be the best defensively, but he'll be playing with Kesler and Booth who can cover for him. Plus there's always the chance he can improve himself defensively under Vigneault.

For Leafs fans, how's Lupul's work ethic?

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11-12-2012, 04:56 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lupul may not be the best defensively, but he'll be playing with Kesler and Booth who can cover for him. Plus there's always the chance he can improve himself defensively under Vigneault.
Yes.

If we acquired Lupul AV would bench him in favour of Higgins, no doubt in my mind. Lupul's offensive production probably drops back down to ~50 points and coupled with his weak defensive skills I think I'd pass all together.

Lupul seems like the perfect linemate for Kessel. Burke would be wiser to trade Kulemin/MacArthur/JVR before him.

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11-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
I don't think that was his main point though or about the decision to or not to, I think it had to do more with us potentially not getting anything of value for Luongo & then having to see Luongo nearly every Sat would make our fan base angry. In that view getting something of value IS necessary in a trade with Tor.
No offense but I don't see how any rational thinking person can think this is an important factor in this trade. You really think that they care less about getting value in a trade with Florida because Vancouver fans will see less of the Panthers? I don't think so, especially for a team that has one of the biggest and best fanbases in hockey, it's not like the Canucks are going to have problems selling tickets if the Luongo trade isn't a huge success. I don't think that Canucks management is at all concerned with how many people on message boards will be complaining about the trade when they make it (as really, that's all it will effect). I certainly hope they aren't.

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11-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Yes.

If we acquired Lupul AV would bench him in favour of Higgins, no doubt in my mind. Lupul's offensive production probably drops back down to ~50 points and coupled with his weak defensive skills I think I'd pass all together.

Lupul seems like the perfect linemate for Kessel. Burke would be wiser to trade Kulemin/MacArthur/JVR before him.
JVR ain't going anywhere. I think that's obvious. But Kulemin and/or MacArthur would surely be going back in a trade for Luongo. I think Toronto fans are nuts to not want to let go of Kadri to get a top 10 goalie. My guess would be MacArthur, Kadri, and a 1st. Luongo doesn't guarantee Toronto a playoff spot, but he does guarantee that the leafs aren't a lottery team and he does gives them a very good chance at the playoffs as long as the team is atleast as good as it was last year.

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11-12-2012, 05:10 PM
  #219
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JVR ain't going anywhere. I think that's obvious. But Kulemin and/or MacArthur would surely be going back in a trade for Luongo. I think Toronto fans are nuts to not want to let go of Kadri to get a top 10 goalie. My guess would be MacArthur, Kadri, and a 1st. Luongo doesn't guarantee Toronto a playoff spot, but he does guarantee that the leafs aren't a lottery team and he does gives them a very good chance at the playoffs as long as the team is atleast as good as it was last year.
That's not the way to build a winner.

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11-12-2012, 05:11 PM
  #220
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JVR ain't going anywhere. I think that's obvious. But Kulemin and/or MacArthur would surely be going back in a trade for Luongo. I think Toronto fans are nuts to not want to let go of Kadri to get a top 10 goalie. My guess would be MacArthur, Kadri, and a 1st. Luongo doesn't guarantee Toronto a playoff spot, but he does guarantee that the leafs aren't a lottery team and he does gives them a very good chance at the playoffs as long as the team is atleast as good as it was last year.
I agree with you about wanting Luongo. That said...prepare to have this proposal shot down in flames.

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11-12-2012, 05:13 PM
  #221
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That's not the way to build a winner.
Ya..trying to win games sucks. Tank nation baby!!

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11-12-2012, 05:15 PM
  #222
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That's not the way to build a winner.
Unfortunately Burke is just in to deep to turn back now. He can't afford to change his direction into a full rebuild because he'll be fired for wasting 5 years trying to make the playoffs. I think dozens of Leaf's fans would be super excited just to get back into the playoffs and it's clear goaltending has been destroying Toronto since the last lockout.

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11-12-2012, 05:15 PM
  #223
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Lupul isn't going to be dealt.

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11-12-2012, 05:16 PM
  #224
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I agree with you about wanting Luongo. That said...prepare to have this proposal shot down in flames.
I'm not a Leaf's or Canucks fan so I could care less if it gets shot down. I think it's a pretty fair deal as it stands now.

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11-12-2012, 05:18 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I agree with you about wanting Luongo. That said...prepare to have this proposal shot down in flames.
Its not a bad proposal, for sure progress. This Luongo negotiation is almost like the current CBA talks, except Im not sure who is NHL and NHLPA lol. Anyways Many continue suggesting Kadri, but he does not suit Canucks building pattern. Gillis just got rid of Hodgson who is a similar type of player. I think it is fair to say most Leaf fans prefer Kadri over Colboure, please correct me if I am wrong. Then why not swap Colbourne for Kadri here and upgrade Macarthur to Kulemin with the difference. Gillis is looking to make the team bigger, both Colbourne and Kulemin fit the bill. The 1st is deal closer.

Instead of:

Macarthur, Kadri, 1st

make it

Kulemin, Colbourne, 1st

value about the same?

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