HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Anaheim Ducks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Norfolk at Albany

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-12-2012, 06:09 PM
  #176
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carelton CA View Post
I hate to rain on the parade here and I am happy that Palmieri and Holland have picked back up offensively where they left off. Both at the top of the team stats offensively and have a scorers touch for sure, vital guys to have in shoot outs. Now the elephant in the room, the plus/minus on these guys.

Both guys need to care about the D end as much as they care about the other end. Defensively we have some guys that are not getting it done. Plus/Minus is an even strength stat and the same guys getting the PP points are the same guys at the bottom of the plus/minus list. Sami, although he had a tough one today with a -4, is now a -3. At least he was plus before today. Until today he has not been all that bad even strength in the D end. Maybe I'm an old time hockey guy, but I just think if you get the majority of the PP time, you should also be held responsible for your effort in the D end.

http://theahl.com/stats/statdisplay....id=-1&confId=0
Vatanen's never going to be Niedermayer. He needs to get out of trouble like Visnovsky did, by anticipating and avoiding the forecheckers.

Spicy Porkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 06:11 PM
  #177
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cat View Post
No. Matching hit for hit is not the same as being not soft, not to me. And their problems are more than in the defensive end - their attack is predictable and their execution on attack lacks determination. Players are often late in driving the net and there is weak support for the puck carrier. Which is itself partially symptomatic of a soft team - one that won't fight for space in transition or in the crease.

To twist Adam Savage's words, I reject your straw man and substitute my own: You seem to think that a player who occasionally makes contact is not soft; and expecting anything more is "ridiculous" and a "bunch of crap."
Then your definition of "soft" is quite a bit different from mine, and pretty much every coach I've ever played under.

I see a Norfolk team that is more than willing to initiate contact, which is quite a bit different than matching the opposing team hit for hit. They aren't hesitating to go to the corners to fight for the puck, or to battle it out in front of the net. Sure, there are battles they are losing, but what I see you describing is an issue with the team's offensive system, and perhaps a lack of hunger. I'm also not sure I agree with it, since I see plenty of players driving to the net. They just aren't necessarily going to the right places consistently. That isn't a soft team. It's just a team that needs to get its **** together. If they can clean up the D zone(not to mention get better goaltending), and be a bit more consistent in the offensive zone, they'll be more successful on the ice.

Sojourn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 06:12 PM
  #178
Carelton CA
Registered User
 
Carelton CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cat View Post
Vatanen's never going to be Niedermayer. He needs to get out of trouble like Visnovsky did, by anticipating and avoiding the forecheckers.
I agree with that. But as he moves up to the NHL is he going to be able to do that at his size and strength?

Carelton CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 06:17 PM
  #179
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carelton CA View Post
I agree with that. But as he moves up to the NHL is he going to be able to do that at his size and strength?
That's really up to him. He has a good toolbox, but he needs to use it better in the defensive zone. It also wouldn't hurt to get stronger, because he's literally bouncing off of players at times, but there will always be limitations there. If he can't match up to players physically, he needs to find different ways to accomplish the same goal, and constantly getting out-muscled in the same situations isn't going to do it.

Sojourn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 06:38 PM
  #180
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 18,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carelton CA View Post
I hate to rain on the parade here and I am happy that Palmieri and Holland have picked back up offensively where they left off. Both at the top of the team stats offensively and have a scorers touch for sure, vital guys to have in shoot outs. Now the elephant in the room, the plus/minus on these guys.

Both guys need to care about the D end as much as they care about the other end. Defensively we have some guys that are not getting it done. Plus/Minus is an even strength stat and the same guys getting the PP points are the same guys at the bottom of the plus/minus list. Sami, although he had a tough one today with a -4, is now a -3. At least he was plus before today. Until today he has not been all that bad even strength in the D end. Maybe I'm an old time hockey guy, but I just think if you get the majority of the PP time, you should also be held responsible for your effort in the D end.

http://theahl.com/stats/statdisplay....id=-1&confId=0
Plus minus isn't worth worrying about. These guys are extremely noticeable on defense. Holland in particular is used heavily on the PK. Watch them play to evaluate their defense, don't watch plus minus.

Exit Dose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 07:28 PM
  #181
Gibson Les Palms
Registered User
 
Gibson Les Palms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,525
vCash: 814
Holland is two behind God for the AHL point lead.

Gibson Les Palms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 07:48 PM
  #182
DuckJet
Mr. Sexy on Skates
 
DuckJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Funkytown
Country: Kazakhstan
Posts: 37,692
vCash: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Teemu View Post
Holland is two behind God for the AHL point lead.
He's three ahead of Jesus.

DuckJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 08:00 PM
  #183
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 18,498
vCash: 500
Holland and Palmieri are only scoring as much as Edmonton's second-tier talents.

Exit Dose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 08:01 PM
  #184
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
They aren't hesitating to go to the corners to fight for the puck, or to battle it out in front of the net.
But they are. That's the thing.

Spicy Porkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 08:02 PM
  #185
Gibson Les Palms
Registered User
 
Gibson Les Palms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,525
vCash: 814
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
He's three ahead of Jesus.
Pete must be a demi-god then

Gibson Les Palms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 08:10 PM
  #186
DuckJet
Mr. Sexy on Skates
 
DuckJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Funkytown
Country: Kazakhstan
Posts: 37,692
vCash: 973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Teemu View Post
Pete must be a demi-god then
Well since RNH is the second coming of Gretzky, Holland, Schultz, and Nyquist must be a new kind of monster.

DuckJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 08:13 PM
  #187
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 25,202
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cat View Post
But they are. That's the thing.
Then maybe I'm watching a different team than you, because outside of a few isolated incidents, I'm not seeing the hesitation.

Sojourn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 08:35 PM
  #188
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Then maybe I'm watching a different team than you, because outside of a few isolated incidents, I'm not seeing the hesitation.
Yep.

Spicy Porkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 09:02 PM
  #189
Carelton CA
Registered User
 
Carelton CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 217
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Plus minus isn't worth worrying about. These guys are extremely noticeable on defense. Holland in particular is used heavily on the PK. Watch them play to evaluate their defense, don't watch plus minus.
This argument that plus/minus is not a relevant stat is bull. It's extremely relevant and that's why they track it. PK pairings are DSP and Mac, Elkins and Maroon and Wagner and Bodie, so I have watched, and Holland is not there he is hardly ever used on the PK. If you're on the ice when the other team scores regularly at even strength it's a problem.

Carelton CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 09:24 PM
  #190
Admiral Al
Registered User
 
Admiral Al's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carelton CA View Post
I agree with that. But as he moves up to the NHL is he going to be able to do that at his size and strength?
I think you should have worded you statement with IF he moves up to the NHL. I dont see being a PP specialist that is a HUGH liability five on five, His size is going to be a hugh issue, probably most so because he has been playing the European game his whole life, he should have got more experiance with the North American game where he would be more physical with moving players off the puck IE Dan Boyle, but I dont see him ever changing that part of his game which might be his undoing, If he ends being a minus 10-20 in the ahl per seasonm he would be a minus 20-30 in the nhl

Admiral Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 09:26 PM
  #191
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 18,498
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carelton CA View Post
This argument that plus/minus is not a relevant stat is bull. It's extremely relevant and that's why they track it. PK pairings are DSP and Mac, Elkins and Maroon and Wagner and Bodie, so I have watched, and Holland is not there he is hardly ever used on the PK. If you're on the ice when the other team scores regularly at even strength it's a problem.
Who are 'they'?

Is there a site that tracks the ice time for PK in the AHL? Maybe my observations are off.

Anyway, why do you think those two forwards are a problem on defense? What specifically do you think that they are not doing when they are out there that is resulting in those goals?

Exit Dose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 11:26 PM
  #192
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
 
Hockey Duckie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: southern cal
Posts: 2,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Teemu View Post
Holland is two behind God for the AHL point lead.
Wait. I'm lost. I thought there can only be one God?! More than one is blasphemous. Oh Sami, how easily you were replaced.

Hockey Duckie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 11:29 PM
  #193
Ducks DVM
Moderator
There is no grunion
 
Ducks DVM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 15,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Al View Post
I think you should have worded you statement with IF he moves up to the NHL. I dont see being a PP specialist that is a HUGH liability five on five, His size is going to be a hugh issue, probably most so because he has been playing the European game his whole life, he should have got more experiance with the North American game where he would be more physical with moving players off the puck IE Dan Boyle, but I dont see him ever changing that part of his game which might be his undoing, If he ends being a minus 10-20 in the ahl per seasonm he would be a minus 20-30 in the nhl
There's a guy named Jack Johnson making a hell of a lot of money with that same NHL +/-. Just saying.

Ducks DVM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
11-12-2012, 11:34 PM
  #194
AngelDuck
Registered User
 
AngelDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 6,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
There's a guy named Jack Johnson making a hell of a lot of money with that same NHL +/-. Just saying.
Cam Fowler also says hi.

BTW, I'm not a big +/- guy, and I think Cam is a great young defenseman. Just pointing out that the +/- thing isn't a huge deal.

AngelDuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-13-2012, 03:40 AM
  #195
Elvs
Registered User
 
Elvs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pitea
Country: Sweden
Posts: 6,741
vCash: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carelton CA View Post
This argument that plus/minus is not a relevant stat is bull. It's extremely relevant and that's why they track it. PK pairings are DSP and Mac, Elkins and Maroon and Wagner and Bodie, so I have watched, and Holland is not there he is hardly ever used on the PK. If you're on the ice when the other team scores regularly at even strength it's a problem.
In 10/11 Teemu Selanne, who always has been known as a weak defensive player was a +6. Meanwhile Saku Koivu, who always has been known as a very good defensive player, was a -8 while playing on the same line. How is that extremely relevant?

Just because Sami Vatanen is a -3 now, doesn't mean he's going to be at minus 20 at the end of the year. Afterall, he was still a plus player after ten games into the season. As long as he's just at a couple of minuses, it's not the end of the world as long as he's producing offensively. And he's going to get a lot of them on the PP, which doesn't show in the +/- category.


Last edited by Elvs: 11-15-2012 at 10:31 AM.
Elvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-13-2012, 04:28 AM
  #196
Corey Perry*
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Beach, Ca
Country: Ireland
Posts: 3,531
vCash: 500
In the old NHL, forwards didn't worry at all about defense. Just because Palmieri and Holland are struggling on defense, in your eyes, doesn't mean there is need for concern. Forwards really don't need to worry about defense. It's not like Selanne is that great defensively...

Corey Perry* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-13-2012, 05:35 AM
  #197
Admiral Al
Registered User
 
Admiral Al's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
In 10/11 Teemu Selanne, who always has been known as a weak defensive player was a +6. Meanwhile Saku Koivu, who always has been known as a very good defensive player, was a -8 while playing on the same line. How is that extremely relevant?

Just because Sami Vatanen is a -3 now, doesn't mean he's going to be at minus 20 at the end of the year. Afterall, he was still a plus player after ten games into the season. As long as he's just at a couple of minuses, it's not the end of the world as long as he's producing offensively. And he's going to get a lot of them on the PP, which doesn't show in the +/- category.
My point exactally Cam Fowler and Jackson are Defenseman and their plus minus doesnt demonstrate their lack of abitily at physical play, I think he is a Forward that plays Defense, he is only affective on the PP, when the Ducks dont get the PP much he is not affective, how many penalties did Albany take the other night? ALot, that is why he had more PP time, not to miss who is on the PP with him Holland Palmari, Well see how he gets as time goes on, Im not saying he isnt a great skater, Im not sold on his NHL ability just yet

Admiral Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-13-2012, 05:48 AM
  #198
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 8,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Al View Post
. . . His size is going to be a hugh issue, probably most so because he has been playing the European game his whole life, he should have got more experiance with the North American game where he would be more physical with moving players off the puck IE Dan Boyle, but I dont see him ever changing that part of his game which might be his undoing . . .
Isn't he getting North American experience now? And isn't it a bit early to be saying you don't think he'll ever adapt?

Spicy Porkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-13-2012, 07:13 AM
  #199
Lord Flashheart
Squadron Commander
 
Lord Flashheart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bananaland crapital
Country: Croatia
Posts: 3,766
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral Al View Post
I think you should have worded you statement with IF he moves up to the NHL. I dont see being a PP specialist that is a HUGH liability five on five, His size is going to be a hugh issue, probably most so because he has been playing the European game his whole life, he should have got more experiance with the North American game where he would be more physical with moving players off the puck IE Dan Boyle, but I dont see him ever changing that part of his game which might be his undoing, If he ends being a minus 10-20 in the ahl per seasonm he would be a minus 20-30 in the nhl
While you're mentioning Dan Boyle, you should note that he got full-time spot in the NHL at the age of 24. Visnovsky also at 24, and if memory serves me right Rafalski at 25. Different times yes, but there's still plenty of time for young Sami, he may surpass them all yet.

Lord Flashheart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
11-13-2012, 08:38 AM
  #200
Kalvinators
hurrr-durrr
 
Kalvinators's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Latvia
Country: Latvia
Posts: 8,662
vCash: 500
Some say that +/- is very reliable stat, some say it`s completely useless. This is ridiculous, i am with the part that says that it means. Ok, you have to take every occasion itself, to judge it correctly, but if hockey would need a completely useless stat, they would count the skating movements in shift, or how many times player says a bad word or something.

In Hollands and Palmieri case i would really like to see more defensive awarness. Not saying they completely sucks, but i would like to see them do better. And if our best point producers are the ones with the worst +/- rating, there is something wrong. They get the most points (some are on PP, when they don`t get a +, though). THey play a bit more than other lines, yes, but our lineup is evened up pretty much, and i have seen it too in those games i`ve seen.

Personally, i think those guys tries to do something defensively, but they just lack that extra 5-10% to be super effective. At least it was as much as i`ve seen this year. If Holly is even reported as a two way forward, i haven`t seen that much of his two way game yet this season.

They`re doing great on the score sheet, but they will need a bit of defensive game too. Hopefully they turn something around!

Kalvinators is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:01 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.