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LW John Gaudreau - Boston College, HE (2011, 104th overall, Calgary)

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Old
11-12-2012, 07:39 PM
  #301
Ashasx
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
No, small players tend to score a lot more at lower levels, but the majority struggle when they play against NHL competition. Look at most junior and college leading scorers and you'll see that a lot of them are undersized.
Back up this claim with facts.

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11-12-2012, 07:48 PM
  #302
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people make way too big a deal over weight

most of the time all it takes is time and a little dedication

he's going the college route so has tons of time

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11-12-2012, 09:54 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Walkingthroughforest View Post
Not at all. If he was 4 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier playing at the same level he is at BC, he'd be one of the most talked about prospects in the world. His freshman season was as good as Kreider's junior season, and we all remember how much Kreider was talked about. His coming out party will be at the WJC.
But he isn't, he is incredibly small and slight.

Even Kreider only saw his stock really sky rocket with his 18 game performance in the NHL playoffs.

Going into the year the 6'3" 220 lb speedster was ranked around 20th.

Gaudreau would need a Forsberg type of WJC performance to get into the top 20 IMO.

Even with his rookie season last year at BC and the scouts seeing his skill set his size and weight still keep him out of most top 100 lists never mind "one of the top prospects in the world discussion."

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11-12-2012, 09:57 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Back up this claim with facts.
If you follow hockey at all at the CHL and American college level you would know this already. click on enough teams scoring lists and you will see for yourself it's really easy to do.

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11-12-2012, 09:59 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
people make way too big a deal over weight

most of the time all it takes is time and a little dedication

he's going the college route so has tons of time
well some guys are just really small and never grow.

The reality is that size and strength matters at the NHL level and there are 100's of really small skilled players that come onto the prospect scene and so few of them ever turn into stars.

Size and reality is against him making a huge impact if at all in the NHL.

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11-12-2012, 10:17 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
If you follow hockey at all at the CHL and American college level you would know this already. click on enough teams scoring lists and you will see for yourself it's really easy to do.
This is simply an awful argument. Judging by your posts, I follow leagues outside the NHL far more than you do. If somebody is going to make a claim, they better spend the time finding facts to back up their argument. Don't always expect me to do it.

Are there a number of small, sub 5'9" players amongst the leading scorers in the CHL/NCAA? Yeah, there are. But you need to look deeper than that.

Brendan Shinnimin, ~5'9", led the WHL is scoring last season. Should we stop there, or should we also note that he was an overager and played on a line with another overager on the highest scoring line in the CHL?

Leading scorer in the the Q was 5'7", but again... overager. Gourde, Trudeau... all overagers.

If you can't tell the difference between Cason Hohmann and Johnny Gaudreau, I don't even know why I'm arguing. You haven't even seen them play.

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11-12-2012, 10:27 PM
  #307
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People need to relax a bit on the Gaudreau hype. He's had a promising start, but for every Marty St.Louis there are 100 TJ Hensicks.

Let's see how he does against the best of his peers before even thinking about throwing him in the "best prospect in the world" discussion.

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11-12-2012, 10:27 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
This is simply an awful argument. Judging by your posts, I follow leagues outside the NHL far more than you do. If somebody is going to make a claim, they better spend the time finding facts to back up their argument. Don't always expect me to do it.

Are there a number of small, sub 5'9" players amongst the leading scorers in the CHL/NCAA? Yeah, there are. But you need to look deeper than that.

Brendan Shinnimin, ~5'9", led the WHL is scoring last season. Should we stop there, or should we also note that he was an overager and played on a line with another overager on the highest scoring line in the CHL?

Leading scorer in the the Q was 5'7", but again... overager. Gourde, Trudeau... all overagers.

If you can't tell the difference between Cason Hohmann and Johnny Gaudreau, I don't even know why I'm arguing. You haven't even seen them play.
Look a little more closely and most of those small guys were scoring at a decent clip (for their age bracket) earlier in their careers.

Smaller players don't make the best shut down defensive players or body checkers or enforcers for the most part they get by on their offensive skill, it's really not that hard of a concept.

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11-12-2012, 10:34 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Look a little more closely and most of those small guys were scoring at a decent clip (for their age bracket) earlier in their careers.

Smaller players don't make the best shut down defensive players or body checkers or enforcers for the most part they get by on their offensive skill, it's really not that hard of a concept.
If your argument is that small players, certainly ones at Gaudreau's size, are at a disadvantage, then that is obvious. But small players don't have some sort of advantage in amateur leagues that allows them to be among the top scorers.

The prediction that he would be considered among the best prospects in the world is obviously a little more than optimistic, as the likelihood that he fails to reach his potential is still very high. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see Gaudreau crack HF's top 50 list next season, and I've already seen him in a few top 100 lists.

If people are looking at players like St. Louis, Briere, and are looking for prospects that fit their game, their size, their skill, I think Gaudreau is the first prospect that comes to mind. That's hardly a guarantee, but I think he's the most likely to reach that type of potential out of any of the crop of undersized NHL prospects right now.

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11-12-2012, 10:35 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
This is simply an awful argument. Judging by your posts, I follow leagues outside the NHL far more than you do. If somebody is going to make a claim, they better spend the time finding facts to back up their argument. Don't always expect me to do it.

Are there a number of small, sub 5'9" players amongst the leading scorers in the CHL/NCAA? Yeah, there are. But you need to look deeper than that.

Brendan Shinnimin, ~5'9", led the WHL is scoring last season. Should we stop there, or should we also note that he was an overager and played on a line with another overager on the highest scoring line in the CHL?

Leading scorer in the the Q was 5'7", but again... overager. Gourde, Trudeau... all overagers.

If you can't tell the difference between Cason Hohmann and Johnny Gaudreau, I don't even know why I'm arguing. You haven't even seen them play.
Damn dude, take the edge off. Gaudreau is a damn good prospect but the point stands there have been a lot of tiny CHL/NCAA scorers fail in the NHL. Your the one asking "Back this claim up with facts." when it's not like he pulled that out of his ass, lots of 5'8" mega scorers in juniors and college.

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11-12-2012, 10:36 PM
  #311
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Gaudreau is unreal. Gunna be a good one.

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11-12-2012, 10:55 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
If your argument is that small players, certainly ones at Gaudreau's size, are at a disadvantage, then that is obvious. But small players don't have some sort of advantage in amateur leagues that allows them to be among the top scorers.

The prediction that he would be considered among the best prospects in the world is obviously a little more than optimistic, as the likelihood that he fails to reach his potential is still very high. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see Gaudreau crack HF's top 50 list next season, and I've already seen him in a few top 100 lists.

If people are looking at players like St. Louis, Briere, and are looking for prospects that fit their game, their size, their skill, I think Gaudreau is the first prospect that comes to mind. That's hardly a guarantee, but I think he's the most likely to reach that type of potential out of any of the crop of undersized NHL prospects right now.
I would be very surprised as the 13 draft guys are coming online as well with at least 15 guys automatically making the top 100(and at least 6 or 7 in top 50) IMO.

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11-12-2012, 10:57 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I would be very surprised as the 13 draft guys are coming online as well with at least 15 guys automatically making the top 100(and at least 6 or 7 in top 50) IMO.
Well, indeed if the season is lost and the players that were expected to graduate don't graduate, then it becomes more than unlikely.

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11-12-2012, 10:58 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Back up this claim with facts.
Sure.

Looking at the 2007/2008 season here are all players listed under 6'0 in the top 20 scorers in their respective league and their height. Bolded denotes a player who has succeeded in the NHL:

WHL:

2. Colin Long- 5'10
3. Colton Yellow Horn- 5'9
4. Tyler Ennis- 5'8
5. Steve DaSilva- 5'10
8. Dan Gendur- 5'10
10. Oscar Moller- 5'10
12. Jason Reese- 5'10
13. Jason Bast- 5'9
18. Kruise Reddick- 5'9
20. Brandon Campos- 5'10

Note: this top 20 includes Mark Santorelli (1), Jordan Eberle (15).

OHL:

1. Jusin Azevedo- 5'7
6. Chris Terry- 5'10
7. Jack Combs- 5'9
8. Mike Swift- 5'8
11. Justin DiBenedetto- 5'11
12. John Hughes- 5'10
20. Adam Perry- 5'10

Note: this top 20 includes John Tavares (3), Luca Caputi (4), Steven Stamkos (5), Dustin Jeffrey (9), Josh Bailey (10), Matt Beleskey (13), Cody Hodgson (17), Taylor Hall (18).

QMJHL:

1. Mathieu Perreault- 5'10
2. Claude Giroux- 5'11
3. Francis Pare- 5'9
5. Dean Ouellet- 5'10
6. Chris DiDomenico- 5'10
8. Francois Bouchard- 5'11
9. Brett Morisson- 5'10
11. Toby Lafrance- 5'8
12. Stefano Giliati- 5'10
13. Cedric McNicoll- 5'10
15. Kelsey Tessier- 5'8
16. Tomy Joly- 5'10
17. Dany Masse- 5'10
19. Benjamin Breault- 5'10
20. Scott Howes- 5'11

Note: top 20 includes Jakub Voracek (4)

NCAA

1. Nathan Gerbe- 5'5
3. Chad Kolarik- 5'11
5. Ryan Lasch- 5'9
6. Simon Lambert- 5'11
7. Joe Whitney- 5'7
8. Ben Smith- 5'10
12. Vince Rocco- 5'10
13. Pete MacArthur- 5'10
14. Garrett Roe- 5'8
15. T.J. Oshie- 5'11
16. Chris Margott- 5'10
19. Tim Kennedy- 5'10
20. Mike Radja- 5'11

Note: top 20 includes Ryan Jones (9), Andreas Nodl (17)

Past Hobey Baker award winners in last 10 years:

2012- Jack Connolly- 5'8
2011- Andy Miele- 5'8
2007- Ryan Duncan- 5'6
2005- Marty Sertich- 5'8
2003- Peter Sejna- 5'10

Note: last 10 includes Blake Geoffrion, Matt Gilroy, Matt Carle, Jordan Leopold

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11-12-2012, 11:21 PM
  #315
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I fail to see a discernible pattern that favours smaller players. Are 16-20 year olds, on average, smaller than NHLers? Yeah. The average height for CHLers is more than 3 inches shorter than NHLers. You've listed a number of 5'10" and even 5'11" players. I certainly would not call them undersized in an amateur league.

And again, you have to look deeper than just stats.

Example, in 07/08, 5'6" Joe Whitney played with the highest scoring player in the NCAA, Gerbe (who has become a servicable NHLer). After Gerbe moved on to the AHL, Whitney's point total dropped from 51 to 15. Gaudreau is not riding the coattails of other players.

And again, many of them were overagers. But this is not to say all of them fit my argument. Justin Azevedo led the OHL in scoring in his last year of amateur hockey (not an overager). So indeed, there are few players who are not overagers that just couldn't find a fit in pro hockey. Obviously the majority of these listed players never amounted to anything, but a number of them, such as Ennis, who have performed well and put up good numbers at every stage in their career, have shown that they have the skill required to compensate for their lack of size.

So yes, the argument that smaller players are at a disadvantage is correct. Though this was never in question.

My proposal is that the small players who have performed at every level, who were not overagers when they led their leagues in scoring, have a fair chance of becoming everyday NHLers.

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11-12-2012, 11:26 PM
  #316
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I've seen em both and I think Grimaldi is more skilled. Grimaldi is stuck with a couple 3rd line freshmen to spread the talent through the lineup so that explains the difference in point totals. Can't wait for wjc time to see em both in action on the same sheet.

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11-12-2012, 11:48 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
But he isn't, he is incredibly small and slight.

Even Kreider only saw his stock really sky rocket with his 18 game performance in the NHL playoffs.

Going into the year the 6'3" 220 lb speedster was ranked around 20th.

Gaudreau would need a Forsberg type of WJC performance to get into the top 20 IMO.

Even with his rookie season last year at BC and the scouts seeing his skill set his size and weight still keep him out of most top 100 lists never mind "one of the top prospects in the world discussion."
Haha, what? It was Kreider this, Kreider that for the last two years from Rangers fans. He was always a top prospect. And the facts are that Gaudreau was one point behind Kreider's Junior season as a freshman!

And at this point, Gaudreau's size hasn't hampered him at all. He's out competing 6'3-230 pound, 24 year old defensemen, when we were all told he couldn't sustain his USHL production in the NCAA. It's no guarantee he'll be in the NHL, but to dismiss him for his size at this point is just foolish.

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11-13-2012, 01:35 AM
  #318
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I completely agree that Flames fans need to cool their expectations for this guy and I am a flames fan who owns a "Gaudreauby Baker" shirt.

He is a nice prospect with very good offensive skill.

Players his size are rarely successful in the NHL, those that are are the exception not the rule

If people are patient with him does he have a decent chance at being an NHLer? Yes

Is he one of the best prospects in the world? Not a chance

If Johnny Gaudreau becomes an above average second liner in the NHL, flames fans should rejoice. Excellent use of a 4th round pick.


One thing I will state is there is a massive difference between undersized players that accomplish what Johnny is at a freshman level, than those who do it later in their college careers. Gaudreau is following a Gerbe type career arc and that is an encouraging sign.

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11-13-2012, 01:43 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
I've seen em both and I think Grimaldi is more skilled. Grimaldi is stuck with a couple 3rd line freshmen to spread the talent through the lineup so that explains the difference in point totals. Can't wait for wjc time to see em both in action on the same sheet.
It's interesting how two people can see something completely different. I've seen Grimaldi play many times, and would say Johnny is "WAY MORE" skilled. (not this isn't homerism... this is actually objective.)

This isn't saying Grimaldi isn't skilled, he is, but not nearly on the same level as Gaudreau...

Grimaldi is fierce, gritty, aggressive back checker, and surprisingly strong for his size. Grimaldi has fantastic speed and leg strength that he uses to his advantage (miles better than Gaudreau)... Besides size/nationality Johnny and Rocco are completely different players.. It's not even a good comparison (especially if we are claiming Rocco is "more" skilled.)

I'm not attacking you, I recognize that two people can have different opinions. Just a little baffled by your comment

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11-13-2012, 01:58 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by FytinSioux View Post
I've seen em both and I think Grimaldi is more skilled. Grimaldi is stuck with a couple 3rd line freshmen to spread the talent through the lineup so that explains the difference in point totals. Can't wait for wjc time to see em both in action on the same sheet.
Define skill. If you mean as an all around player I can see potential merit to your argument, if you mean hands or puck skills then you're talking out of your ass because Gaudreau was far more skilled in that area then Bartschi. And I don't think there is any debate about who is more skilled between Grimaldi and Bartschi.

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11-13-2012, 02:00 AM
  #321
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Define skill. If you mean as an all around player I can see potential merit to your argument, if you mean hands or puck skills then you're talking out of your ass.
I wish I could have summed it up in two sentences.

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11-13-2012, 02:34 AM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Back up this claim with facts.
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Sure.

...
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
And again, you have to look deeper than just stats.
Well, what do you want then?

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11-13-2012, 02:51 AM
  #323
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Well, what do you want then?
Facts != stats and only stats.

Read my posts. Not hard.

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11-13-2012, 05:02 AM
  #324
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Facts != stats and only stats.

Read my posts. Not hard.
My opinion is more valid than your opinion! herp-derp

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11-13-2012, 10:46 AM
  #325
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My opinion is more valid than your opinion! herp-derp
I didn't know pointing out how players are overagers was an opinion. Clearly you didn't read all my posts.

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