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CBA Talk II: Shut up and give me YOUR money!

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Old
11-10-2012, 02:47 AM
  #351
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Somebody want to explain to me what make whole is? Does it have to do with HRR?

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11-10-2012, 03:07 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Somebody want to explain to me what make whole is? Does it have to do with HRR?
Its the mechanic that will help the NHL owners guarantee the PA's current contracts while transitioning them to the new 50/50 HRR rate.

The initial argument was who share of the HRR this money would be coming out of.

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Old
11-10-2012, 05:42 AM
  #353
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I know this is a lot to ask, but could someone post a timeline of the lockout?
Or a summary?
This would be amazing. And then sticky it, mods.

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11-10-2012, 12:42 PM
  #354
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Nov. 3
NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and NHLPA general counsel Steve Fehr hold labour talks at an undisclosed location from Saturday afternoon through 1am et Saturday night, looking for common ground in an effort to get back to more formal bargaining between both sides. "We had a series of meetings yesterday (Saturday) and exchanged views on the most important issues separating us," said Daly. "We plan to meet again sometime early this week."

Nov. 2
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2013 Winter Classic that would have been held Jan. 1 in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Oct. 26
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2012-13 regular season schedule through Nov. 30. A total of 326 regular-season games - 26.5 percent of the season - from Oct. 11 through Nov. 30 are wiped out.

Oct. 25
The NHL withdraws its latest CBA proposal to the NHLPA after a deadline to play a full 82-game season passes with no new discussions between the two sides.

Oct. 19
The NHL cancels 2012-13 regular season games through Nov. 1. In all, 135 games are wiped out.

Oct. 18
The NHL Players Association supplies three separate proposals to the National Hockey League in response to the NHL's Oct. 16 offer. The league, however, turns down all three proposals and the meeting breaks up after a little more than an hour.

Oct. 16
The NHL puts a new offer on the bargaining table for the NHLPA, which includes a 50/50 split of hockey-related revenue across the board and contingent on an 82-game season beginning Nov. 2. According to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, that the offer calls for no salary rollback and the revised schedule - if implemented - would see every team play an extra game every five weeks.

Oct. 10
The Alberta Labour Relations Board decides that the NHL's lockout of players from the Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames can continue. The board said in a written ruling that forcing an end to the lockout for two members of a 30-team league would be unlikely to solve the contract dispute between the league and the players' union. The NHLPA had wanted the board to rule the lockout illegal in Alberta.

Oct. 4
The NHL cancels the first two weeks of the 2012-13 regular season, which was scheduled to begin Oct. 11 with four games. In all, 82 games are wiped out through
Oct. 24.

Oct. 2
After a two-hour meeting with the NHLPA regarding hockey related revenue in New York, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly says that no progress has been made. "Unless they show some willingness to compromise, I don't know how we get this done," he told reporters.

Sept. 30
Both sides wrap up three straight days of meetings, but without touching upon core economic issues. Items discussed include player health and safety, drug testing, and legal matters regarding player movement. Both sides did focus on clarifications of definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue.

Sept. 29
Devils forward Krys Barch (@krysbarch) takes to Twitter, voicing his concerns over the lockout in a lengthy screed. Read the text here.

Sept. 27
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the remainder of the 2012 preseason schedule through October 8.

Sept. 19
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2012 preseason schedule through September 30.

Sept. 15
With no further meetings planned at the time and no significant progress, the CBA expires and the NHL locks out its players.

Sept. 14
The Quebec Labour Relations Board turns down an injunction request by 16 members of the Montreal Canadiens and the NHL Players' Association to declare a lockout illegal in Quebec. It also ruled that more hearings are needed to make a final decision on an application.

Sept. 13
NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman says the owners voted unanimously to support a lockout, if necessary.

Sept. 12
The NHL files its latest proposal in the ongoing labour talks with the NHL Players' Association, giving the union until Saturday to accept before pulling it off the table. The proposal includes an increase to the 46 per cent of revenue players were offered in the league's last proposal. The players currently get 57 per cent of revenues.

Sept. 9
The NHLPA says it intends to challenge a lockout before labour boards in Quebec and Alberta, a move that if successful could force the league to pay players on the Canadiens, Flames and Oilers during a work stoppage. Labour law in Canada is provincial, not national and the NHLPA is not recognized as a certified union in Quebec.

Sept. 7
NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr, his top assistant and brother Steve Fehr, commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy Bill Daly hold a pair of informal negotiation sessions at the league offices.

Aug. 31
The NHLPA tries to engage the league on discussions about ways to make that Year 4 more workable for both sides. Talks later break down with no plans to hold more future talks.

Aug. 28
The NHL makes a counterproposal off the NHLPA's Aug. 13 proposal. Under the HRR parameters of the soon-to-expiring CBA, they scale the players' share of revenue from 57 percent in Year 4 to 46 percent.

Aug. 23
Both sides hold a full meeting in Toronto and the NHLPA delivers more details regarding its Aug. 13 proposal.

Aug. 22
NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr and NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr meet on their own in Toronto.

Aug. 13 - 16
Four days of talks in Toronto. The NHLPA delivers its first proposal saying the players are willing to give up a portion of future revenue growth for a period of three years. The salary cap under their proposal would start at $69 million for the 2012-13 season and Year 4 of the proposed CBA would go back to 57 percent for the players.

Aug. 7 - 10
Talks held in New York. Meetings discuss player health and safety and CBA legal issues. A subcommittee session focuses on hockey-related issues, including supplementary discipline, training camp and ice conditions.

July 31 - Aug. 1
Both sides hold a full group committee negotiation session in New York followed by smaller group sessions. The league presents the final elements of their July 13 proposal.

July 24 - 26
Talks continue in Toronto with smaller group sessions on secondary issues. On Day 2 of these session, the NHL presents more aspects of its July 13 proposal.

July 18 - 20
Boths sides hold three days of talks in New York, discussion continues regarding the NHL's July 13 proposal as well as where the system should be headed.

July 13
The NHL makes its first proposal to the NHL Players' Association in Toronto. The NHL wants the players' share of hockey-related revenue (HRR) reduced from 57 percent to 43 percent and include new definitions for HRR.

July 10
CBA talks continue in Toronto. The Players' Association puts forth noneconomic issues such as training camp and player travel/road accomodation.

July 5 - 6
Negotiating teams from both sides meet in New York. On the first day, the union responds to the NHL's June 29 presentation with its own views. The next day, both sides talk about other issues such as player health, supplemental discipline and retirement benefits.

June 29
The NHL and NHL Players' Association meet for the first time to begin their talks on a new collective bargaining agreement. The league delivers a financial presentation and identifies issues it wants to discuss in the CBA.

It's not quite up to date yet but this is what I got.

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Old
11-10-2012, 01:12 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Nov. 3
NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and NHLPA general counsel Steve Fehr hold labour talks at an undisclosed location from Saturday afternoon through 1am et Saturday night, looking for common ground in an effort to get back to more formal bargaining between both sides. "We had a series of meetings yesterday (Saturday) and exchanged views on the most important issues separating us," said Daly. "We plan to meet again sometime early this week."

Nov. 2
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2013 Winter Classic that would have been held Jan. 1 in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Oct. 26
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2012-13 regular season schedule through Nov. 30. A total of 326 regular-season games - 26.5 percent of the season - from Oct. 11 through Nov. 30 are wiped out.

Oct. 25
The NHL withdraws its latest CBA proposal to the NHLPA after a deadline to play a full 82-game season passes with no new discussions between the two sides.

Oct. 19
The NHL cancels 2012-13 regular season games through Nov. 1. In all, 135 games are wiped out.

Oct. 18
The NHL Players Association supplies three separate proposals to the National Hockey League in response to the NHL's Oct. 16 offer. The league, however, turns down all three proposals and the meeting breaks up after a little more than an hour.

Oct. 16
The NHL puts a new offer on the bargaining table for the NHLPA, which includes a 50/50 split of hockey-related revenue across the board and contingent on an 82-game season beginning Nov. 2. According to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, that the offer calls for no salary rollback and the revised schedule - if implemented - would see every team play an extra game every five weeks.

Oct. 10
The Alberta Labour Relations Board decides that the NHL's lockout of players from the Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames can continue. The board said in a written ruling that forcing an end to the lockout for two members of a 30-team league would be unlikely to solve the contract dispute between the league and the players' union. The NHLPA had wanted the board to rule the lockout illegal in Alberta.

Oct. 4
The NHL cancels the first two weeks of the 2012-13 regular season, which was scheduled to begin Oct. 11 with four games. In all, 82 games are wiped out through
Oct. 24.

Oct. 2
After a two-hour meeting with the NHLPA regarding hockey related revenue in New York, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly says that no progress has been made. "Unless they show some willingness to compromise, I don't know how we get this done," he told reporters.

Sept. 30
Both sides wrap up three straight days of meetings, but without touching upon core economic issues. Items discussed include player health and safety, drug testing, and legal matters regarding player movement. Both sides did focus on clarifications of definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue.

Sept. 29
Devils forward Krys Barch (@krysbarch) takes to Twitter, voicing his concerns over the lockout in a lengthy screed. Read the text here.

Sept. 27
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the remainder of the 2012 preseason schedule through October 8.

Sept. 19
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2012 preseason schedule through September 30.

Sept. 15
With no further meetings planned at the time and no significant progress, the CBA expires and the NHL locks out its players.

Sept. 14
The Quebec Labour Relations Board turns down an injunction request by 16 members of the Montreal Canadiens and the NHL Players' Association to declare a lockout illegal in Quebec. It also ruled that more hearings are needed to make a final decision on an application.

Sept. 13
NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman says the owners voted unanimously to support a lockout, if necessary.

Sept. 12
The NHL files its latest proposal in the ongoing labour talks with the NHL Players' Association, giving the union until Saturday to accept before pulling it off the table. The proposal includes an increase to the 46 per cent of revenue players were offered in the league's last proposal. The players currently get 57 per cent of revenues.

Sept. 9
The NHLPA says it intends to challenge a lockout before labour boards in Quebec and Alberta, a move that if successful could force the league to pay players on the Canadiens, Flames and Oilers during a work stoppage. Labour law in Canada is provincial, not national and the NHLPA is not recognized as a certified union in Quebec.

Sept. 7
NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr, his top assistant and brother Steve Fehr, commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy Bill Daly hold a pair of informal negotiation sessions at the league offices.

Aug. 31
The NHLPA tries to engage the league on discussions about ways to make that Year 4 more workable for both sides. Talks later break down with no plans to hold more future talks.

Aug. 28
The NHL makes a counterproposal off the NHLPA's Aug. 13 proposal. Under the HRR parameters of the soon-to-expiring CBA, they scale the players' share of revenue from 57 percent in Year 4 to 46 percent.

Aug. 23
Both sides hold a full meeting in Toronto and the NHLPA delivers more details regarding its Aug. 13 proposal.

Aug. 22
NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr and NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr meet on their own in Toronto.

Aug. 13 - 16
Four days of talks in Toronto. The NHLPA delivers its first proposal saying the players are willing to give up a portion of future revenue growth for a period of three years. The salary cap under their proposal would start at $69 million for the 2012-13 season and Year 4 of the proposed CBA would go back to 57 percent for the players.

Aug. 7 - 10
Talks held in New York. Meetings discuss player health and safety and CBA legal issues. A subcommittee session focuses on hockey-related issues, including supplementary discipline, training camp and ice conditions.

July 31 - Aug. 1
Both sides hold a full group committee negotiation session in New York followed by smaller group sessions. The league presents the final elements of their July 13 proposal.

July 24 - 26
Talks continue in Toronto with smaller group sessions on secondary issues. On Day 2 of these session, the NHL presents more aspects of its July 13 proposal.

July 18 - 20
Boths sides hold three days of talks in New York, discussion continues regarding the NHL's July 13 proposal as well as where the system should be headed.

July 13
The NHL makes its first proposal to the NHL Players' Association in Toronto. The NHL wants the players' share of hockey-related revenue (HRR) reduced from 57 percent to 43 percent and include new definitions for HRR.

July 10
CBA talks continue in Toronto. The Players' Association puts forth noneconomic issues such as training camp and player travel/road accomodation.

July 5 - 6
Negotiating teams from both sides meet in New York. On the first day, the union responds to the NHL's June 29 presentation with its own views. The next day, both sides talk about other issues such as player health, supplemental discipline and retirement benefits.

June 29
The NHL and NHL Players' Association meet for the first time to begin their talks on a new collective bargaining agreement. The league delivers a financial presentation and identifies issues it wants to discuss in the CBA.

It's not quite up to date yet but this is what I got.
Lockout didn't officially begin until September when CBA expired but if your going to list that far back you should go all the way back into January and early playoffs when Fehr and NHLPA turned down the owners attempts to begin talks

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Old
11-10-2012, 06:26 PM
  #356
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He players now want to be paid there full contracts if there is a shortened season? Sounds like they really don't want to play. (Yes, I know it's a chip in the negotiations.) what I don't understand is hope the PA can think the NHL would agree to pay them more next year than they would have received this year.

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Old
11-10-2012, 06:30 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by west in the east View Post
He players now want to be paid there full contracts if there is a shortened season? Sounds like they really don't want to play. (Yes, I know it's a chip in the negotiations.) what I don't understand is hope the PA can think the NHL would agree to pay them more next year than they would have received this year.
This is not true. The players want to work out the framework of a deal and then work out how a shortened season will effect it.

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Old
11-10-2012, 08:57 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Nov. 3
NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly and NHLPA general counsel Steve Fehr hold labour talks at an undisclosed location from Saturday afternoon through 1am et Saturday night, looking for common ground in an effort to get back to more formal bargaining between both sides. "We had a series of meetings yesterday (Saturday) and exchanged views on the most important issues separating us," said Daly. "We plan to meet again sometime early this week."

Nov. 2
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2013 Winter Classic that would have been held Jan. 1 in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Oct. 26
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2012-13 regular season schedule through Nov. 30. A total of 326 regular-season games - 26.5 percent of the season - from Oct. 11 through Nov. 30 are wiped out.

Oct. 25
The NHL withdraws its latest CBA proposal to the NHLPA after a deadline to play a full 82-game season passes with no new discussions between the two sides.

Oct. 19
The NHL cancels 2012-13 regular season games through Nov. 1. In all, 135 games are wiped out.

Oct. 18
The NHL Players Association supplies three separate proposals to the National Hockey League in response to the NHL's Oct. 16 offer. The league, however, turns down all three proposals and the meeting breaks up after a little more than an hour.

Oct. 16
The NHL puts a new offer on the bargaining table for the NHLPA, which includes a 50/50 split of hockey-related revenue across the board and contingent on an 82-game season beginning Nov. 2. According to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, that the offer calls for no salary rollback and the revised schedule - if implemented - would see every team play an extra game every five weeks.

Oct. 10
The Alberta Labour Relations Board decides that the NHL's lockout of players from the Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames can continue. The board said in a written ruling that forcing an end to the lockout for two members of a 30-team league would be unlikely to solve the contract dispute between the league and the players' union. The NHLPA had wanted the board to rule the lockout illegal in Alberta.

Oct. 4
The NHL cancels the first two weeks of the 2012-13 regular season, which was scheduled to begin Oct. 11 with four games. In all, 82 games are wiped out through
Oct. 24.

Oct. 2
After a two-hour meeting with the NHLPA regarding hockey related revenue in New York, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly says that no progress has been made. "Unless they show some willingness to compromise, I don't know how we get this done," he told reporters.

Sept. 30
Both sides wrap up three straight days of meetings, but without touching upon core economic issues. Items discussed include player health and safety, drug testing, and legal matters regarding player movement. Both sides did focus on clarifications of definitions of what makes up hockey-related revenue.

Sept. 29
Devils forward Krys Barch (@krysbarch) takes to Twitter, voicing his concerns over the lockout in a lengthy screed. Read the text here.

Sept. 27
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the remainder of the 2012 preseason schedule through October 8.

Sept. 19
The National Hockey League announces the cancellation of the 2012 preseason schedule through September 30.

Sept. 15
With no further meetings planned at the time and no significant progress, the CBA expires and the NHL locks out its players.

Sept. 14
The Quebec Labour Relations Board turns down an injunction request by 16 members of the Montreal Canadiens and the NHL Players' Association to declare a lockout illegal in Quebec. It also ruled that more hearings are needed to make a final decision on an application.

Sept. 13
NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman says the owners voted unanimously to support a lockout, if necessary.

Sept. 12
The NHL files its latest proposal in the ongoing labour talks with the NHL Players' Association, giving the union until Saturday to accept before pulling it off the table. The proposal includes an increase to the 46 per cent of revenue players were offered in the league's last proposal. The players currently get 57 per cent of revenues.

Sept. 9
The NHLPA says it intends to challenge a lockout before labour boards in Quebec and Alberta, a move that if successful could force the league to pay players on the Canadiens, Flames and Oilers during a work stoppage. Labour law in Canada is provincial, not national and the NHLPA is not recognized as a certified union in Quebec.

Sept. 7
NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr, his top assistant and brother Steve Fehr, commissioner Gary Bettman and deputy Bill Daly hold a pair of informal negotiation sessions at the league offices.

Aug. 31
The NHLPA tries to engage the league on discussions about ways to make that Year 4 more workable for both sides. Talks later break down with no plans to hold more future talks.

Aug. 28
The NHL makes a counterproposal off the NHLPA's Aug. 13 proposal. Under the HRR parameters of the soon-to-expiring CBA, they scale the players' share of revenue from 57 percent in Year 4 to 46 percent.

Aug. 23
Both sides hold a full meeting in Toronto and the NHLPA delivers more details regarding its Aug. 13 proposal.

Aug. 22
NHL commissioner Gary Bettman, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly, NHLPA executive director Donald Fehr and NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr meet on their own in Toronto.

Aug. 13 - 16
Four days of talks in Toronto. The NHLPA delivers its first proposal saying the players are willing to give up a portion of future revenue growth for a period of three years. The salary cap under their proposal would start at $69 million for the 2012-13 season and Year 4 of the proposed CBA would go back to 57 percent for the players.

Aug. 7 - 10
Talks held in New York. Meetings discuss player health and safety and CBA legal issues. A subcommittee session focuses on hockey-related issues, including supplementary discipline, training camp and ice conditions.

July 31 - Aug. 1
Both sides hold a full group committee negotiation session in New York followed by smaller group sessions. The league presents the final elements of their July 13 proposal.

July 24 - 26
Talks continue in Toronto with smaller group sessions on secondary issues. On Day 2 of these session, the NHL presents more aspects of its July 13 proposal.

July 18 - 20
Boths sides hold three days of talks in New York, discussion continues regarding the NHL's July 13 proposal as well as where the system should be headed.

July 13
The NHL makes its first proposal to the NHL Players' Association in Toronto. The NHL wants the players' share of hockey-related revenue (HRR) reduced from 57 percent to 43 percent and include new definitions for HRR.

July 10
CBA talks continue in Toronto. The Players' Association puts forth noneconomic issues such as training camp and player travel/road accomodation.

July 5 - 6
Negotiating teams from both sides meet in New York. On the first day, the union responds to the NHL's June 29 presentation with its own views. The next day, both sides talk about other issues such as player health, supplemental discipline and retirement benefits.

June 29
The NHL and NHL Players' Association meet for the first time to begin their talks on a new collective bargaining agreement. The league delivers a financial presentation and identifies issues it wants to discuss in the CBA.

It's not quite up to date yet but this is what I got.
Thanks Reverend for doing this.
Clears up quite a bit.
I hope the mod will sticky this.

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:24 AM
  #359
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Thanks Rev!

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Old
11-11-2012, 12:31 PM
  #360
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Dates in which the league approached the NHLPA a year ago, only to be refuted, needs to be added to that list. Gives more context to the scenario.

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11-11-2012, 01:06 PM
  #361
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Dates in which the league approached the NHLPA a year ago, only to be refuted, needs to be added to that list. Gives more context to the scenario.
It's a lockout not a strike.

The context of the matter is the players were willing to operate under the previous CBA while continuing to negotiate a new CBA.

The league and it's owners (teams) continued to operate under the Old CBA right up until Sept 15th, signing players to long term contracts the day before crying poor and locking out their players (and fans).

- bob Mackenzie has a decent article on the "make whole" provision that describes it for whoever was looking for the definition above.

I find the "make whole" provision to be laughable.

Yes you'll slow the rate of getting to 50-50, but the contracts these owners signed "in good faith" will probably be irrepapareably lessened by the HRR loses incurred due to the owners lockout.

If the owners sign a contract to a player for a set rate should owe hat player all his money - the rollbacks are a joke.

I don't think they are close to a deal at all.

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11-11-2012, 01:13 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
It's a lockout not a strike.

The context of the matter is the players were willing to operate under the previous CBA while continuing to negotiate a new CBA.

The league and it's owners (teams) continued to operate under the Old CBA right up until Sept 15th, signing players to long term contracts the day before crying poor and locking out their players (and fans).

- bob Mackenzie has a decent article on the "make whole" provision that describes it for whoever was looking for the definition above.

I find the "make whole" provision to be laughable.

Yes you'll slow the rate of getting to 50-50, but the contracts these owners signed "in good faith" will probably be irrepapareably lessened by the HRR loses incurred due to the owners lockout.

If the owners sign a contract to a player for a set rate should owe hat player all his money - the rollbacks are a joke.

I don't think they are close to a deal at all.
No team will ever again operate under a CBA that is set to expire in 1 year. Especially, or specifically because the NHLPA head is Don Fehr.

The NHL made that extremely clear and wanted to negotiate well ahead of this point. The dates the NHL approached the NHLPA is very important.

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11-11-2012, 01:45 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
No team will ever again operate under a CBA that is set to expire in 1 year. Especially, or specifically because the NHLPA head is Don Fehr.

The NHL made that extremely clear and wanted to negotiate well ahead of this point. The dates the NHL approached the NHLPA is very important.
I wonder if the NHL will push to make the new CBA (whenever it gets agreed to), have the expirey datedset to midnight on June 30? NFL CBA expired prior to free agency.

Why go through a summer of living through a soon to be expiring CBA in the future?

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11-11-2012, 03:24 PM
  #364
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Bob McKenzie gives a pretty good summary of where things stand right now:
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409277

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11-11-2012, 05:22 PM
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
It's a lockout not a strike.

The context of the matter is the players were willing to operate under the previous CBA while continuing to negotiate a new CBA.

The league and it's owners (teams) continued to operate under the Old CBA right up until Sept 15th, signing players to long term contracts the day before crying poor and locking out their players (and fans).

- bob Mackenzie has a decent article on the "make whole" provision that describes it for whoever was looking for the definition above.

I find the "make whole" provision to be laughable.

Yes you'll slow the rate of getting to 50-50, but the contracts these owners signed "in good faith" will probably be irrepapareably lessened by the HRR loses incurred due to the owners lockout.

If the owners sign a contract to a player for a set rate should owe hat player all his money - the rollbacks are a joke.

I don't think they are close to a deal at all.
The players also knew that a possible labour stoppage was possible when they signed their deals and worked out bonuses to be paid up front. There is a reason why a lot of players rushed to sign deals before the CBA expired, they knew that they were likely to take a hit under a new deal so they wanted to take advantage of the old system. Hard to have any sympathy for either side.

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:44 PM
  #366
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day 57 and still feels like the sides are at day 7. They should welcome new draftees into the league like : "Welcome to the NHL, we'll lockout you out once every 6 or 7 seasons. Good stuff."

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11-13-2012, 01:00 AM
  #367
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The league continues to be far more unreasonable than I expected them to be, which is pretty remarkable considering how low my opinion of Bettman & Co was going into this whole mess. The framework for a deal has been incredibly obvious for several months now, and Bettman and the owners continue to try and hit a homerun unnecessarily. I'm shocked the league is expecting the players to reduce their share and then acquiesce to every demand the league made for contract/free agent structuring. Nuts.


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11-13-2012, 01:50 AM
  #368
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I wonder if the NHL will push to make the new CBA (whenever it gets agreed to), have the expirey datedset to midnight on June 30? NFL CBA expired prior to free agency.

Why go through a summer of living through a soon to be expiring CBA in the future?
This has been discussed between Steve and Bill and neither parties seem to object. This is a non issue.

The issue is still about the revenue sharing, in which they are miles apart.

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11-13-2012, 02:28 AM
  #369
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The league continues to be far more unreasonable than I expected them to be, which is pretty remarkable considering how low my opinion of Bettman & Co was going into this whole mess. The framework for a deal has been incredibly obvious for several months now, and Bettman and the owners continue to try and hit a homerun unnecessarily. I'm shocked the league is expecting the players to reduce their share and then acquiesce to every demand the league made for contract/free agent structuring. Nuts.
The PA is harping on this as part of its PR war and apparently some are falling for it. It's really a minor issue compared to the money.

Expect the contracting issues to be settled in no time flat once an agreement is made on the economics. The league doesn't need all it is asking for on the contracting issues; realistically all that is required is something to stop the huge front-loaded deals. But with the PA still holding out on the money side, the league has no reason to give in on any of its demands in other areas.

Right now the deal is being held up by one thing: the PA's refusal to accept a deal that is linked to HRR. Linkage forces the owners and players to share the cost of lost revenue due to the lockout and share the risk of how fast HRR will grow. Fehr is playing a game of chicken, and so far it has worked - it has made the league move a long way in its offers while the PA hasn't really given much way at all. Expect Fehr to push the season to the brink before a deal gets made.


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11-13-2012, 02:29 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
The league continues to be far more unreasonable than I expected them to be, which is pretty remarkable considering how low my opinion of Bettman & Co was going into this whole mess. The framework for a deal has been incredibly obvious for several months now, and Bettman and the owners continue to try and hit a homerun unnecessarily. I'm shocked the league is expecting the players to reduce their share and then acquiesce to every demand the league made for contract/free agent structuring. Nuts.



Agreed. But I think it goes deeper than the numbers. The NHL "negotiators" disregard underlying feelings here. The players feel like punching bags here. Like they must give way every time out. To my surprise, Bettman only encouraged this perception by taking a hard line approach from the beginning.



He's basically negotiating against himself. The players are doing this more, in my mind, because of what Bettman represents: He represents oppression. Not a partnership, but pure and blatant oppression. And there's only so much authority you can bring to bear before players/employees resent the act... This is exactly what is happening here.

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11-13-2012, 02:42 AM
  #371
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Agreed. But I think it goes deeper than the numbers. The NHL "negotiators" disregard underlying feelings here. The players feel like punching bags here. Like they must give way every time out. To my surprise, Bettman only encouraged this perception by taking a hard line approach from the beginning.

...
Ah, it's about feelings, is it? To think that I thought it was all about money and lawyers...


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11-13-2012, 03:30 AM
  #372
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Ah, it's about feelings, is it? To think that I thought it was all about money and lawyers...

Resentment is definitely at play here. This is Gary's 3rd lockout. The players hate him. He chose to play hardball right from the outset, and here we are.


Sure it's about money. Sure, Lawyers are involved. But everyone knows that the players are already coming in with a negative outlook, based on what happened prior to this... Wrong move by Gary by trying to go head to head with that perception. Idiotic actually...

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11-13-2012, 04:49 AM
  #373
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The PA is harping on this as part of its PR war and apparently some are falling for it. It's really a minor issue compared to the money.

Expect the contracting issues to be settled in no time flat once an agreement is made on the economics. The league doesn't need all it is asking for on the contracting issues; realistically all that is required is something to stop the huge front-loaded deals. But with the PA still holding out on the money side, the league has no reason to give in on any of its demands in other areas.

Right now the deal is being held up by one thing: the PA's refusal to accept a deal that is linked to HRR. Linkage forces the owners and players to share the cost of lost revenue due to the lockout and share the risk of how fast HRR will grow. Fehr is playing a game of chicken, and so far it has worked - it has made the league move a long way in its offers while the PA hasn't really given much way at all. Expect Fehr to push the season to the brink before a deal gets made.
This, but i'm interested to see why Proto believes the other concessions (contracting changes) are a major stumbling block to the negotiations.

The only person anywhere near the PA i've heard even mention them over the last few months is Crosby who isn't affected by those changes at all... and really those changes wont affect what NHL players make at all.

In fact all of the concessions the NHLPA have been pushing for from the NHL seem to be in paying the current players what they made before and de-linking HRR.

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11-13-2012, 12:26 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
The PA is harping on this as part of its PR war and apparently some are falling for it. It's really a minor issue compared to the money.

Expect the contracting issues to be settled in no time flat once an agreement is made on the economics. The league doesn't need all it is asking for on the contracting issues; realistically all that is required is something to stop the huge front-loaded deals. But with the PA still holding out on the money side, the league has no reason to give in on any of its demands in other areas.

Right now the deal is being held up by one thing: the PA's refusal to accept a deal that is linked to HRR. Linkage forces the owners and players to share the cost of lost revenue due to the lockout and share the risk of how fast HRR will grow. Fehr is playing a game of chicken, and so far it has worked - it has made the league move a long way in its offers while the PA hasn't really given much way at all. Expect Fehr to push the season to the brink before a deal gets made.
Do you work for the league?

The players accepted a deal "linked to HRR" in the last CBA and have made no suggestion they wouldn't in this deal. The only "stumbling block" is that the league immediately wanted to rollback salaries and not honour deals signed by the owners over the last CBA. Period.

The players have agreed to a 50/50 share of revenues and in their last proposal they guaranteed the split would reach 50/50 by the third year of the deal. This is a huge concession on the part of the PA. Bettman's response to all of this was to say that the league was unwilling to move at all on any of the contract issues.

I think you're being willfully obtuse when you suggest the league has moved a "long way" and the players haven't. In real terms, the league hasn't moved at all. They simply started at an untenable, idiotic position to give the illusion of movement, and the NHL's lapdop media drank it up. If we follow this sort of logic, the PA should have started asking for a 75% split of HR, unrestricted free agency after the ELC, and that all players be paid in gold bullion. Then the players would have moved a long ways already

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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
This, but i'm interested to see why Proto believes the other concessions (contracting changes) are a major stumbling block to the negotiations.

The only person anywhere near the PA i've heard even mention them over the last few months is Crosby who isn't affected by those changes at all... and really those changes wont affect what NHL players make at all.

In fact all of the concessions the NHLPA have been pushing for from the NHL seem to be in paying the current players what they made before and de-linking HRR.
The PA is attempting to settle the HRR/revenue splitting issue before tackling the contracting issue, but in the last round of negotiations last week, Bettman reportedly told Fehr & Co that there would be no movement on those issues. They seem to be dead set at increasing UFA eligibility, capping contract lengths at 5 years, and having low variance between contract years.

Bettman's hard-line approach on every issue is what's dragged this process on so long. He's not used to dealing with someone who is better at the process than he is, and it's why Fehr has slowly turned the PR battle in his favour over the course of the fall.

Basically, why would the PA agree to all of these HRR/revenue splits without assurances that the league is going to give? The PA has already given -- a lot -- and the league's response was, "Good! Now give us some more there, and we're also not budging at all on any of the other issues. Final offer! (again)".

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11-13-2012, 04:46 PM
  #375
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No team will ever again operate under a CBA that is set to expire in 1 year. Especially, or specifically because the NHLPA head is Don Fehr.

The NHL made that extremely clear and wanted to negotiate well ahead of this point. The dates the NHL approached the NHLPA is very important.
This has been pointed out a million times already, but what I was curious about is what exactly are the labour laws that allow for this? I mean it's not like for the 11-12 season with the CBA set to expire the PA could have gone on strike last April just before the playoffs, so what exactly is it that allows them to if they played 1 additional year under the previous CBA? If it has something to do with being only an extension rather than an official CBA, then couldn't they just sign an official 1 year CBA?

Or maybe I'm way off and the players can choose to go on strike at anytime... if that's the case then why doesn't any of the PA's do so before the playoffs in the final year of the deal?

I know this is one of the pro-NHL sides key talking points, and I more or less agree with it in that the players should have gone to the negotiating table early (although that's completely countered by Bettman's brutal opening offer) and that the for the league it wasn't really feasible for the league to play one more year under the same rules. But I'm not entirely sold on the selling point that they were 'forced' to turn down a one year option, as surely there has to be some way for the league to protect themselves from a player strike.

I would imagine that part of the reason it worked so well in Baseball the first time is because the owners weren't expecting it. At the very least, if the law doesn't allow for any protections, you'd think an ownership group would be able to threaten the players that if they're thinking of striking just before the next playoffs then be prepared to miss an entire year.

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