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1987 Canada Cup: CCCP vs Canada - Game One, Two & Three

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Old
09-16-2012, 10:15 AM
  #126
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Yes, and that changes that Canada has won the WHC on European ice several times how?

Listen pal, you should check out the score of the game between Canada and Russia at the OLYMPICS in 2010

Because thats the only one that matters......not some game at a " "B" car company tournament.


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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
In your spare time you may want to look up where was the WHC held in 2008.

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09-16-2012, 10:19 AM
  #127
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When did I make that argument?

It's YOU who made the argument we have only won in 72 and 2002.



And yes, I agree with you that Russia won't win in Sochi, they simply aren't strong or skilled enough to do so but even if they do so what?

It's at home.........it doesn't count according to your theory.

I'm glad we have that cleared up.

[QUOTE=Sentinel;54340841]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post

I love this argument! Do you mean: if Russia loses, or if Canada wins, or what? Russia lost in Turin, but Canada didn't win (in fact, you probably remember who eliminated who). Again, I think Russia will lose in Sochi on the weakness of their defense. But I don't think Canada will win either.

And again: world championship has been held in Quebec in 2008. I was there, I know.

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09-16-2012, 10:19 AM
  #128
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.....

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09-16-2012, 10:22 AM
  #129
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Sorry about this MR Writer, this was meant in response to sentinel but I had hit your post by mistake and the system here won't let me change it.

Aoligies all around.

[QUOTE=espo;54363467]When did I make that argument?

It's YOU who made the argument we have only won in 72 and 2002.



And yes, I agree with you that Russia won't win in Sochi, they simply aren't strong or skilled enough to do so but even if they do so what?

It's at home.........it doesn't count according to your theory.

I'm glad we have that cleared up.


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09-16-2012, 10:34 AM
  #130
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[QUOTE=espo;54363533] Sorry about this MR Writer, this was meant in response to sentinel but I had hit your post by mistake and the system here won't let me change it.

Aoligies all around.

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Originally Posted by espo View Post
When did I make that argument?

It's YOU who made the argument we have only won in 72 and 2002.



And yes, I agree with you that Russia won't win in Sochi, they simply aren't strong or skilled enough to do so but even if they do so what?

It's at home.........it doesn't count according to your theory.

I'm glad we have that cleared up.
No worries! I've done that once or twice myself...

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09-16-2012, 10:54 AM
  #131
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It's weird, the system on this thing doesn't even allow me an edit function.

And when you go to erase words in the quote function(it's the only option they give me) as soon as you take em out and post it the thing will say the message you entered in is too short when you haven't even attempted to put in a message, all you were simply doing was fixing some typos or eliminating words you wrote.

Weirdest system on a message board i've ever seen.

Wonder what's wrong with it?

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09-16-2012, 11:22 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Ok then, it's quite obvious, 2014 will not be on neutral territory, the odds are stacked against us.... Russian soil = guaranteed gold medal for Russia then?
Are you blind? Read what I've been in saying about Russia's projected performance in Sochi in, like, every other post?

Espo: I'm not sure what you are arguing about. Re-read my arguments again (especially the part about Playoffs-2012 being held entirely in New Jersey). "B car company tournament"? What's that?

For the emptieth time: we all know Canada is a great hockey nation and can win in North America. We also know they don't do as well in other places. What's there to argue about, really?


Last edited by Sentinel: 09-16-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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09-16-2012, 12:43 PM
  #133
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[QUOTE=espo;54363533] Sorry about this MR Writer, this was meant in response to sentinel but I had hit your post by mistake and the system here won't let me change it.

Aoligies all around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
When did I make that argument?

It's YOU who made the argument we have only won in 72 and 2002.



And yes, I agree with you that Russia won't win in Sochi, they simply aren't strong or skilled enough to do so but even if they do so what?

It's at home.........it doesn't count according to your theory.

I'm glad we have that cleared up.
Agreed with that sentiment...

Oh and it's good to know, that anything won on home soil doesn't count. From here on in we'll only count those gold medals won away from home... looks as though Canada as a few freebie tournaments coming up in the next few years. World Jrs in Ufa...it doesn't count. U18 in Sochi, it doesn't count.. 2014 Olympics doesn't count. Russia could run the table in the next few years and our argument will be it doesn't count. It's at home.

That argument "only winning at home" is as nonsensical as me saying The Canada-Slovak result from last year's WHC doesn't count because I had a bad tuna fish sandwich for lunch that day....

Really, the nonsense they come up with... it just cracks me up!

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09-16-2012, 08:33 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
If you have to revert to name-calling, you have a bigger issue. I didn't say Canada can't win on big ice. My argument is that the so-called "best on best" tournaments overwhelmingly favor Canada in their setup. When the odds don't favor Canada, Canadians have a history of playing down the importance of the tournament.
Sorry, can't let you get away with broad stroke generalizations like that, because "on the whole"/"for the most part"/"universally", Canadians don't downplay hockey of any kind. No matter where the tournament, or who's playing, we expect to win and are disappointed when we don't. Even those who you have seen "play down" lost tournaments can probably be balanced out by those on the side of the victors who make the win out to be more of an accomplishment than it really was.

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09-16-2012, 10:42 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Canadians don't downplay hockey of any kind. No matter where the tournament, or who's playing, we expect to win and are disappointed when we don't.
Yeah. Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
Listen pal, you should check out the score of the game between Canada and Russia at the OLYMPICS in 2010

Because thats the only one that matters......not some game at a " "B" car company tournament.
Yeah. Right.

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09-16-2012, 10:55 PM
  #136
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Yeah. Right.
Sweet editing. Says a lot that you went through the effort.

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09-17-2012, 05:26 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Some notions (I haven't watched the games now, though):

- Is it just me or does Krutov make Bourque look really poor in game 2, beating him constantly 1-on-1?
- Where's Larionov?
- Fetisov makes mistakes in the final game, but all in all, he is one of the best players IMO
- Bykov (1+3 in the finals, I think?) and Khomutov (3+2) never get enough credit; as far as I'm concerned, they were at least as good as their linemate Kamensky
- Makarov is playing really well here, but overall, I think his decline had started a bit; for example, a few months later in the 1988 Winter Olympics, Tikhonov had to bench him occasionally
I just finished watching the games (they're all on YouTube, if that's not been mentioned yet). Absolutely incredible hockey, and so much more entertaining than most of today's NHL games. Of course, you'd hope for that from an all-star international series between two great rivals, but as has been said in this thread it's just great to see teams playing with an offence-first mentality.

Some added thoughts:

Where's Larionov indeed? I you were going to predict which of the Soviets would be most likely to have NHL success based on this series he would be nowhere near the top of the list. I can't find any reference to him playing injured, so I'd guess it's something to do with having to go up against Gilmour and/or Gretzky every shift. His lack of footspeed and size don't help either. It's a shame, because his linemates do pretty well without him but I'd expected more extended periods of KLM dominance in the series.

I'd agree that Fetisov plays just fine though. When you're up against that Canadian forecheck you're going to turn the puck over sometimes, but he generally makes the simple, effective plays while also matching up physically to the bigger Canadian forwards.

And the Soviets' second line is incredible. I'd forgotten how explosive Kamensky could be; the goal in game two where he blows by two Canadian defencemen is a real beauty. Khomutov is the real star of the show for me though. I really didn't know much about him when I started watching the games, but did he ever blow me away. Such a beautiful combination of the traditionally Soviet style of playing as a cog in a unit combined with the ability to put on individual shows of absolute brilliance. Love his minimalism too, he never overdekes or tries to put on too much of a show, only turning on the flash when it's absolutely necessary.

Speaking of that line, I only now realised that the Nordiques / Avalanche could almost have had a Russian five of their own if Bykov and Khomutov had opted for NHL careers as Kamensky and Gusarov did. What a dimension that could have added to the Wings - Avs rivalry.

Regarding the reffing, I don't see any bias. In fact throughout the first game I'm surprised at how many penalties are called against Canada. I'd also argue that the Canadians win the special teams battle: they seem to get a real jump after every penalty killed or goal scored with the man advantage.

Finally, an oddity: what about James Patrick starting game one on the Gretzky line. I think Keenan outcoaches Tikhonov throughout, but is that ever a head scratcher, dressing a 7th dman to play with your best forward while leaving guys like Steve Yzerman at home.

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09-17-2012, 06:46 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
Where's Larionov indeed? I you were going to predict which of the Soviets would be most likely to have NHL success based on this series he would be nowhere near the top of the list. I can't find any reference to him playing injured, so I'd guess it's something to do with having to go up against Gilmour and/or Gretzky every shift. His lack of footspeed and size don't help either. It's a shame, because his linemates do pretty well without him but I'd expected more extended periods of KLM dominance in the series.
The color guy Ron Reusch mentions something about an injury a couple of times, but it's all very mysterious. I think Larionov plays well in the 1st final, but after that, he is basically a non-factor. Actually, I remember Larionov saying in his book something like "Messier made my job very difficult", but he doesn't say anything about himself being injured. Krutov and Makarov were brilliant, though. IMO Larionov was never as good as Makarov or Krutov at their peak anyway, but the difference definitely wasn't as big as it seems in this series.

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Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
I'd agree that Fetisov plays just fine though. When you're up against that Canadian forecheck you're going to turn the puck over sometimes, but he generally makes the simple, effective plays while also matching up physically to the bigger Canadian forwards.
There were a couple of really bad giveaways (remind me of Alexander Gusev!), although I'm not sure if any of them led to a goal (obviously this would not 'excuse' him). But I'd agree with your overview.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
And the Soviets' second line is incredible. I'd forgotten how explosive Kamensky could be; the goal in game two where he blows by two Canadian defencemen is a real beauty. Khomutov is the real star of the show for me though. I really didn't know much about him when I started watching the games, but did he ever blow me away. Such a beautiful combination of the traditionally Soviet style of playing as a cog in a unit combined with the ability to put on individual shows of absolute brilliance. Love his minimalism too, he never overdekes or tries to put on too much of a show, only turning on the flash when it's absolutely necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
Speaking of that line, I only now realised that the Nordiques / Avalanche could almost have had a Russian five of their own if Bykov and Khomutov had opted for NHL careers as Kamensky and Gusarov did. What a dimension that could have added to the Wings - Avs rivalry.
Bykov and Khomutov were born in 1960 and 1961, respectively, so it would not have been an ideal situation for either of them, even though both seemed to age pretty well. But you never know.

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09-17-2012, 08:03 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
Some added thoughts:

Where's Larionov indeed? I you were going to predict which of the Soviets would be most likely to have NHL success based on this series he would be nowhere near the top of the list. I can't find any reference to him playing injured, so I'd guess it's something to do with having to go up against Gilmour and/or Gretzky every shift. His lack of footspeed and size don't help either. It's a shame, because his linemates do pretty well without him but I'd expected more extended periods of KLM dominance in the series.
That was one of the best parts of the recent TSN replay of the series: Larionov was on the panel with Mike Keenan and Larry Murphy, giving their accounts and anecdotes throughout. The reason we didn't see more Larionov (and the rest of the Green Unit), according to Larionov, is that Tikhonov rolled 4 lines throughout the series; regardless of situation, or whatever. He was apparently also trying to keep the pace of the game/series up after Canada went down to 10 forwards (game 2?), which probably made him even more reluctant to diverge from his strategy.

Larionov went on to say that, despite the fact that the level of play in the series surpassed anything he has ever seen, he really wishes that his line had been sent out against the Gretzky line more, and show everyone more of "real" best-on-best hockey.

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09-17-2012, 09:35 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
The color guy Ron Reusch mentions something about an injury a couple of times, but it's all very mysterious. I think Larionov plays well in the 1st final, but after that, he is basically a non-factor.
I didn't have time to catch the whole 3 game series on TSN last week but I did hear them mention that Larionov was playing hurt in game 1 and then in game 2 or 3 they showed a trainer giving his thighs a rubdown on the bench. It's funny that he didn't mention that he was playing injured while on the TSN panel. Maybe he didn't want it to sound like he was making excuses.

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09-17-2012, 09:49 AM
  #141
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It's funny that he didn't mention that he was playing injured while on the TSN panel. Maybe he didn't want it to sound like he was making excuses.
I could see that. Larionov has always been an all class, no excuses kind of guy to my knowledge.

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09-17-2012, 09:58 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Thrace View Post
Speaking of that line, I only now realised that the Nordiques / Avalanche could almost have had a Russian five of their own if Bykov and Khomutov had opted for NHL careers as Kamensky and Gusarov did. What a dimension that could have added to the Wings - Avs rivalry.
The fifth man would have been Mikhail Tatarinov, but injuries forced him to retire as early as 1993, so even with Khomutov and Bykov there's no Russian five in Colorado. However, they could still have formed a "Soviet five" with Sandis Ozoliņ.

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Bykov and Khomutov were born in 1960 and 1961, respectively, so it would not have been an ideal situation for either of them, even though both seemed to age pretty well. But you never know.
True, but in Fetisov (1958) and Larionov (1960) Detroit also had two older players in their "Russian five".

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09-17-2012, 11:07 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
True, but in Fetisov (1958) and Larionov (1960) Detroit also had two older players in their "Russian five".
Somehow I think that Khomutov especially would not have been very comfortable in the NHL, although playing with familiar players/countrymen obviously would have helped.

In case anyone has missed, there was a little discussion on the Russia forum about Bykov & Khomutov and the NHL http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1233009

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09-17-2012, 02:27 PM
  #144
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For those who's interested I just finished uploading the full length of the games on YouTube in the best possible quality that i could get a hold of.

[PLAYLIST]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...5_-Gplip0nXPYg


[GAME 1]




[GAME 2]




[GAME 3]


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09-17-2012, 02:43 PM
  #145
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I am always struck when watching these games by just how bloody good Vladimir Krutov was. He was so incredibly dynamic for the Russians, even though he was already a bit of a chubbier guy. His skill was unbelievable.

Watching Gretzky in his prime is an absolute joy...

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09-20-2012, 09:26 AM
  #146
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And we all know Russia is a great hockey nation that doesn't do well on any continent, indeed.........what are we arguing about?

Russia, great hockey country, great talent, but just can't beat clearly superior teams anywhere in the world when everyone has their best playing.

Nothing to argue about there.......the results prove that.

Russia isn't all that good and is massively overrated...........let's move on, no need to fight amongst ourselves over reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Are y
ou blind? Read what I've been in saying about Russia's projected performance in Sochi in, like, every other post?

Espo: I'm not sure what you are arguing about. Re-read my arguments again (especially the part about Playoffs-2012 being held entirely in New Jersey). "B car company tournament"? What's that?

For the emptieth time: we all know Canada is a great hockey nation and can win in North America. We also know they don't do as well in other places. What's there to argue about, really?

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09-21-2012, 05:09 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayWalk3r View Post
For those who's interested I just finished uploading the full length of the games on YouTube in the best possible quality that i could get a hold of.

[PLAYLIST]

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...5_-Gplip0nXPYg


[GAME 1]




[GAME 2]




[GAME 3]

Just watched them all (thanks to you)

First impression, wow.. the tempo was intense.
Kamensky could really fly out there, damn, his acceleration was second to none.
Probably the 3-set best games ever played. that was awesome.
The refs did favour Canada though, which was a bit disappointing.

Anyway, those games were great. And the speed they had is just as good as in today's game. It seems that the gameplan from both teams wasn't that good though, compared to today. (in a strategic way).

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11-13-2012, 05:14 AM
  #148
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lexus is european; forgive him his parochialism

I'll have to check, but I believe that canada was actually whistled for more fouls than the russians in this series; it was certainly close, if I recall correctly. Further, koharski let a blatant hook on bourque go that resulted in the 4th soviet goal; it's always fascinating how the russians and their european acolytes overlook that. Canada was the better team and would have been that much better if allowed to stay together as a squad for an extended period of time. the close-minded and blinkered mindset of the euros on these boards is nauseating.

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11-13-2012, 05:56 AM
  #149
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I'll have to check, but I believe that canada was actually whistled for more fouls than the russians in this series; it was certainly close, if I recall correctly.
Not to argue about the 1987 series, but that is just not much of an argument in general. If one side commits 20 fouls and the other 10 but both get 5 penalties it's still unfair.

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11-13-2012, 12:35 PM
  #150
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Not to argue about the 1987 series, but that is just not much of an argument in general. If one side commits 20 fouls and the other 10 but both get 5 penalties it's still unfair.
It seemed like the refs didn't want penalties determining the outcome of the series......however that inadvertently led to Canada getting away with many more blatant fouls than the Soviets.

Likely a case of Team Canada knowing what they could/couldn't get away with in an NHL setting more than the Soviets did.

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