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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:03 AM
  #51
Nanuk23
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
I would love hockey to be back in December, but no talking is bad. I was thinking they'd be off for the HHOF yesterday and regrouping today and back at it the rest of the week so maybe that will happen?

If they don't talk for another week+, it is looking dicey for that December 1-2 start.
Hopefully meetings will be held shortly. If the league can get an agreement on the economics then I believe they will move on some of these contract issues. Until that happens Bettman will stand firm and there is be no more moves in the players direction. Just my opinion.

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11-13-2012, 09:04 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HFNHL PIT GM View Post
More nonsense that salaries have doubled.

In 2003-04, NHL paid out 1.6b to players, in 2011-12, they paid out slightly less than 1.9b.

That's not double. I don't care about math spinning, this is hard cold fact.
Whoa, talk about spinning. whats spinning is using the salaries from when the players were making nearly 74% of the revenue...when people say doubled, they are talking under the recently expired CBA. The fact that they are now making more money under the cap system than they were when they were making 74% of the income is just even more gravy for them.

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11-13-2012, 09:06 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SlingshotVv View Post
well, to be fair, the players aren't currently the one's that've managed their financial situation into an untenable abyss, that requires shutting down their league. At this point, getting advice from the NHL on finances would be hilarious. 7 years ago, I was under the impression that the NHL needed to scrap a season to get this league on solid footing. Turns out, that season was thrown away for a very temporary band-aid. Not exactly reassuring that this CBA is going to be the stabilizing force they (Bettman) keep telling us it will.
If it's the owners financial situation, then maybe the PA should get out of the way and let the owners figure it out, however it is that they would want to do it. If the players don't want to help save the owners from themselves, then let the owners save themselves by themselves.

And if one set of circumstances years ago, is a different set of circumstances today, you're just supposed to keep doing the same thing from the previous set of circumstances? I think the word of the day today should be adapt.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:07 AM
  #54
CerebralGenesis
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Originally Posted by HFNHL PIT GM View Post
More nonsense that salaries have doubled.

In 2003-04, NHL paid out 1.6b to players, in 2011-12, they paid out slightly less than 1.9b.

That's not double. I don't care about math spinning, this is hard cold fact.
Unfortunately that would be considered math spinning because it was a separate CBA. In 2004 the numbers are much different than the current CBA, thus the year that was lost. I would do the same calculation using the first year out of the new CBA instead. It should land you closer to that salary getting doubled value.

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11-13-2012, 09:12 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFNHL PIT GM View Post
More nonsense that salaries have doubled.

In 2003-04, NHL paid out 1.6b to players, in 2011-12, they paid out slightly less than 1.9b.

That's not double. I don't care about math spinning, this is hard cold fact.
no what has doubled is the average salary. it went from 1.1 or 1.2 million per player to 2.4 million per player.

star players have roughly stayed the same with there salaries. but 3rd and 4th line players are now making 1-2 million a year, instead of the 500k they were taking home before the last lockout.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:15 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I'd say they are close to real negotiations and bargaining more so than getting a deal done BUT i will say these major hurdles that are left, if they get over one, the rest should be jumped over quickly.
Nothing with the PA and the league is ever easy or ends quickly.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:21 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
We don't know if that quote is accurate or if it was said at all, or, if it was, in what context or what it concerned. Fehr said that he understood that it was said when he was out of the room but whoever supposedly heard it has not spoken up, so it is really just hearsay.

Daly said that they are not walking away from those contract issues that seem to be the sticking point, but not that they couldn't be discussed or altered but just that they are important and cant be walked away from.
If it wasn't true, the league would've been all over it releasing statements to the contrary. The league and Bettman are rattled. They've tried to win public favor and thought they could wrap this up. When they didn't get what they wanted, they lashed out at Fehr on Friday, then tried to play the bully on Sunday's contracting rights non-negotiations. All that has done is strengthen the players and unions resolve.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:27 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
If it wasn't true, the league would've been all over it releasing statements to the contrary. The league and Bettman are rattled. They've tried to win public favor and thought they could wrap this up. When they didn't get what they wanted, they lashed out at Fehr on Friday, then tried to play the bully on Sunday's contracting rights non-negotiations. All that has done is strengthen the players and unions resolve.
i highly doubt the nhl would do that though, then it just becomes a he said she said type thing through the media. then instead of negotiating they are arguing over the media about what was actually said and what wasn't said.

saying something might seem like a good idea but it isn't, it will just turn into more bad blood.

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11-13-2012, 09:27 AM
  #59
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The NHL won't concede on contract rights until the NHLPA concedes on the 50/50 and Make whole split. Once they do, then the NHL will give on contracts and this will be done. If the NHL caved on contracts now, then the NHLPA will hold out for the HRR split to be delinked.

It's your move PA...

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11-13-2012, 09:32 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
i highly doubt the nhl would do that though, then it just becomes a he said she said type thing through the media. then instead of negotiating they are arguing over the media about what was actually said and what wasn't said.

saying something might seem like a good idea but it isn't, it will just turn into more bad blood.
We're talking about the same NHL that leaked to the media the notion that Fehr was withholding things from the union members. I KNOW the NHL would set the record straight, if indeed it had to, to win public favor.

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11-13-2012, 09:35 AM
  #61
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Yeah, once the NHLPA gives in on the Delinked structure, if they do, I see the deal being done pretty quickly. The NHL will not hold up the season based on UFA age or ELC changes, though they probably will insist on at least one of contract term or variance. It's why I see the PA claiming they are close on HRR split but don't see a path to an agreement based on the NHL's refusal to move any more on contract rights as a smokescreen and PR spin. They m is the big hurdle is still that they are insisting a gauranteed delinked 1.91 billion and future raises, while the NHL insists (and I doubt will budge) on linked salaries.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:40 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
The NHL won't concede on contract rights until the NHLPA concedes on the 50/50 and Make whole split. Once they do, then the NHL will give on contracts and this will be done. If the NHL caved on contracts now, then the NHLPA will hold out for the HRR split to be delinked.

It's your move PA...
It's been their move for a while now and they seem hellbent on wasting everybody's time while they figure out how to suck everybody dry.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:41 AM
  #63
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If the players are stuck on getting paid for 82 games in a shortened season, then the lock out will go the entire year. Period.

The owners will never pay 100% of salaries for 75% of games played.

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11-13-2012, 09:42 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
We're talking about the same NHL that leaked to the media the notion that Fehr was withholding things from the union members. I KNOW the NHL would set the record straight, if indeed it had to, to win public favor.
The NHL is hard to read. If you expect the league to take whatever opportunity to win public favour, why did they turn down the PA's request to meet after the 82 game schedule deadline had passed? The PA made their PR move to show they wanted to negotiate, why didn't the league respond in kind and agree to the meeting? When it comes to the PR, like I said, the league is hard to read. Obviously they care about the PR but there have been instances where they have done things that aren't PR friendly when it easily could have been.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:43 AM
  #65
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These threads are great, but is there like a legend or a dummy users guide? WTH is delinking? What is the deal with contracts? Can someone explain how this 50/50 split works and how revenue sharing among teams and individual players works?

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:48 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
It's been their move for a while now and they seem hellbent on wasting everybody's time while they figure out how to suck everybody dry.
It's a good thing the NHL held onto that Contract term chip or else we would see this de-linked crap going on for years...

The question becomes, does Donald Fehr actually tell his constituents that it is either 50/50 linked now, plus make whole, or contract rights. You have to choose one. Or does he tell his players that he will get both... If he thinks, and in turn the Players think, they will get both this will drag on for a season.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:50 AM
  #67
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Bill Daly told CSN that the NHLPA's latest offer would have the players making 65% of the HRR in Year 1 of the deal. #HireMediator

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:52 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Bill Daly told CSN that the NHLPA's latest offer would have the players making 65% of the HRR in Year 1 of the deal. #HireMediator
sounds like a great plan to get the owners to accept your deal, lets go back to getting paid almost as much as we did before the previous lockout.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:52 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Not just Spector. Even Bob Mackenzie is scratching his head as to why the owners told the PA they will not budge on their "contracting rights" demands.

The way i look at it is the owners (or the ones that have a say atleast) were insulted the PA didn't accept the new "make whole" solution so they retaliate by saying thier position on contract rights is unmoveable.
Thats part of it. Wouldnt you be a little pissed off when you give a concession in negotiations that rectifies a main concern and the other party then goes and changes the terms? The PA was going on and on about make whole and when the league said ok we will pay to make sure this concern is taken care of, all of a sudden the PA says well thats not enough heres the number were looking for which could potentially be over double.

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11-13-2012, 09:52 AM
  #70
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I just want to give them both my money, and they wont let me.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:52 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
If it wasn't true, the league would've been all over it releasing statements to the contrary. The league and Bettman are rattled. They've tried to win public favor and thought they could wrap this up. When they didn't get what they wanted, they lashed out at Fehr on Friday, then tried to play the bully on Sunday's contracting rights non-negotiations. All that has done is strengthen the players and unions resolve.
Whoa whoa....regarding that "overheard by someone else" quote, Daly refuted the suggestion that they wouldn't discuss the contractual sticking points , he said that they did want to discuss them but they were important to the owners and they didn't want to walk away from them.

Because the quote that Fehr claims was overheard when he was out of the room by someone who has never come forward ,we don't know if it was actually reported accurately,and if so exactly what it was referring to. Perhaps one of the contractual sticking points, if so, which one and in what context.Or perhaps something else entirely.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:54 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Bill Daly told CSN that the NHLPA's latest offer would have the players making 65% of the HRR in Year 1 of the deal. #HireMediator
I love the NHLPA...

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:54 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by wondeROY View Post
These threads are great, but is there like a legend or a dummy users guide? WTH is delinking? What is the deal with contracts? Can someone explain how this 50/50 split works and how revenue sharing among teams and individual players works?
In the now expired CBA, players salries were linked to hockey related revenues. In the most recent season the players were set to earn exactly 57% of HRR. Each paycheck a portion of the players money went into an escrow account. At the end of the year the calculation was made to determine what the exact number of HRR was. Players were then refunded part of the money they contricuterd to escrow (or in some years more than they contributed). The amount of money given back was calculated so that on aggregate all teh players salaries equally 57% of HRR.

De-linkage is removing this set percentage. In all of the NHLPA's proposal rather than having players salaries a percentage of HRR they propose players salaries are a set amount. So de-likage is removing the linkage between salaries and revenues.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:55 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Bill Daly told CSN that the NHLPA's latest offer would have the players making 65% of the HRR in Year 1 of the deal. #HireMediator
Gotta love the NHLPA, ask for raises after raises when it isn't going to happen. Great leader they have their. Too bad the players are too stupid to do the math themselves. Or else they would be able to determine their own bottom line and not need Donny boy to force feed his anti-owner propaganda down their throats.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:56 AM
  #75
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Bill Daly told CSN that the NHLPA's latest offer would have the players making 65% of the HRR in Year 1 of the deal. #HireMediator
I'd be curious how he calculated that out.

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