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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:56 AM
  #76
kingpest19
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
The NHL is hard to read. If you expect the league to take whatever opportunity to win public favour, why did they turn down the PA's request to meet after the 82 game schedule deadline had passed? The PA made their PR move to show they wanted to negotiate, why didn't the league respond in kind and agree to the meeting? When it comes to the PR, like I said, the league is hard to read. Obviously they care about the PR but there have been instances where they have done things that aren't PR friendly when it easily could have been.
Perhaps because public favor was already their way because of the PAs refusal to meet at anytime over the course of the last year? Or maybe because the PA dragged its feet once it began receiving proposals?

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11-13-2012, 09:57 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
You guys get way too emotional. You guys get way up (Go back to October 16th and last week) and way down. In my opinion, both sides are making steady progress and are just posturing to the media to get a bit more. At some point in the next week or so they will sit down and get a deal done.
We can't help it...we are hockey fans!

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:59 AM
  #78
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65% wow!!!! That seems extremely high.....

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:59 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull
Bill Daly told CSN that the NHLPA's latest offer would have the players making 65% of the HRR in Year 1 of the deal. #HireMediator
The PA pulled a fast one with the NHL in 04-05 with some craftiness.

Saskin makes Fehr look like a buffoon.

Fehr makes Fehr look like a buffoon.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:02 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
In the now expired CBA, players salries were linked to hockey related revenues. In the most recent season the players were set to earn exactly 57% of HRR. Each paycheck a portion of the players money went into an escrow account. At the end of the year the calculation was made to determine what the exact number of HRR was. Players were then refunded part of the money they contricuterd to escrow (or in some years more than they contributed). The amount of money given back was calculated so that on aggregate all teh players salaries equally 57% of HRR.

De-linkage is removing this set percentage. In all of the NHLPA's proposal rather than having players salaries a percentage of HRR they propose players salaries are a set amount. So de-likage is removing the linkage between salaries and revenues.
Thank you. Interesting, so basically (now) all players would get the same amount of HRR? So whether you're a 4th line scrub or Crosby, you would get the same amount? And when you say salaries, I'm assuming this has nothing to do with their contracts? This is basically additional income on top of their guaranteed income, yea?

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:03 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
I'd be curious how he calculated that out.
PA is asking for the $1.883B they got last year plus a 1.75% increase, bringing the total to $1.915B.

Daly estimates the lockout has caused $400M in damage, bringing HRR estimates to $2.9B.

1.915/2.9 = 66%

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11-13-2012, 10:05 AM
  #82
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NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr said the owners and players are "fairly close" on the subject of revenue sharing but conceded that the sides aren't close on other topics that would need to be agreed upon to end the NHL lockout.

Fehr called revenue sharing a "fairly major issue." But it's clearly not the centerpiece of getting a deal done. He called the three biggest issues right now the "dollars," player contracting rights and how to adjust to the fact that there won't be a full 2012-13 season.

Asked if Fehr's characterization of talks was accurate, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly replied simply: "Yes."

Revenue sharing probably won't have as "sizable an impact as the union would prefer," Fehr said at the Primetime Sports Management Conference at the Westin Harbourside.

Fehr said he thought the sides were close on economics until he heard back from the NHL about what it wanted in regard to splitting hockey-related revenue.

And while there's disagreement aplenty, Fehr said: "One thing Bill Daly and I agree on, ... when the moment is right ... a deal will be done very quickly."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...ue-nhlpa-clos/

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:06 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Artz19 View Post
PA is asking for the $1.883B they got last year plus a 1.75% increase, bringing the total to $1.915B.

Daly estimates the lockout has caused $400M in damage, bringing HRR estimates to $2.9B.

1.915/2.9 = 66%
Thanks for the breakdown. I forgot about the PA's demand to get full salaries this year.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:06 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Whoa whoa....regarding that "overheard by someone else" quote, Daly refuted the suggestion that they wouldn't discuss the contractual sticking points , he said that they did want to discuss them but they were important to the owners and they didn't want to walk away from them.
There was an article yesterday refuting Daly's statement and the contractual sticking points aren't really that "sticky" at all for them.(3 gm's or owners were asked)

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:11 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ultra63 View Post
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...-talks/1261233

"These blockheads are about to take a sport that barely registers in this country anyway, pack it into a crate and chuck it over a cliff. For the first time since this NHL lockout started 59 days ago, it really does feel like the season is in jeopardy."
...
How can we trust that the two men half responsible for the biggest labor messes in North American sports over the past two decades are the right negotiators to hammer out this deal?"
Unfortunately, I do not see the owners demanding Bettman excuse himself from negotiating, nor do I see the players forcing Don Fehr to the sidelines.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:13 AM
  #86
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Some random twitter posts saying that they secretly met last night after the HHOF ceremony and could pick things back up tomorrow?

No source on this, more just speculation and re-stating what others have said.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:14 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
Some random twitter posts saying that they secretly met last night after the HHOF ceremony and could pick things back up tomorrow?

No source on this, more just speculation and re-stating what others have said.
Who??

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:14 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by FanSince2012 View Post
The PA pulled a fast one with the NHL in 04-05 with some craftiness.

Saskin makes Fehr look like a buffoon.

Fehr makes Fehr look like a buffoon.
Saskin did great for the NHLPA in the last CBA. He took advantage of owners being blinded by getting the salary cap. He got the UFA age reduced by 4 years and in some cases 6 years, got a favorable percentage of revenues, kept salary arbitration etc.

I do agree that the NHL wants to take a lot of that back and THAT is not fair. I agree with the owners that a 50-50 split is necessary but I would not mind keeping the other things as they are and just put a 5% variance in the contracts to avoid LONG term deals and front loading.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:15 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by wondeROY View Post
These threads are great, but is there like a legend or a dummy users guide? WTH is delinking? What is the deal with contracts? Can someone explain how this 50/50 split works and how revenue sharing among teams and individual players works?
If you aren't in here daily, it's certainly hard to keep up with everything so I don't blame you for feeling lost.

Delinking is when salaries are untied from actual revenues earned. The league wants to pay the players share from a percentage out of the league revenues earned (linked). Players want a fixed percentage independent of league revenues (delinked).

The PA has increased their request for revenue sharing since their original proposing, now calling for 260M in revenue sharing. The league has agreed to 220M (I've heard reports of it being higher but I'll stick with the lowest figure). In addition, the league has dropped all (or most) restrictions from revenue sharing so now more teams that are bottom 15 in league revenues are able to qualify for revenue sharing. Previously due to restrictions in place, revenue sharing contributed by the top 10 teams would often be given back to the teams because several of the bottom teams couldn't qualify for RS. With no restrictions (or less restrictions), more teams will qualify and receive a RS paycheque.

The league has proposed an immediate 50/50 split. The salary lost in years 1 and 2 will be deferred to year 3+ and be paid with 2% interest (with 5% growth it's expected that player salaries will be back to 1.8B by year 3). The deferred salary will be paid out of the owners pockets. I've seen varying math and have tried it myself and the money the league is commiting to deferred salaries don't cover every penny of the contracts but if I'm not mistaken, it comes quite close. The fact that it doesn't cover every cent is a contentious issue for the PA. The PA proposes a 50/50 split where it's based on expected revenue growth. PA gets fixed raises and coupled with revenue growth, the league can expect a 50/50 split by year 3 at 7% growth and by year 5 at 5% growth (though this suggestions actually puts the split closer to 51% for the players). So the league continues to use the framework of linked salaries while the PA continues to use the framework of delinked salaries.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:17 AM
  #90
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65% is pretty generous for the PA

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:17 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Artz19 View Post
PA is asking for the $1.883B they got last year plus a 1.75% increase, bringing the total to $1.915B.

Daly estimates the lockout has caused $400M in damage, bringing HRR estimates to $2.9B.

1.915/2.9 = 66%
If they honestly insist on getting the full salaries then the season is long gone. Hope it was just a ploy, like my fantasy football trade offer today.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:19 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by wondeROY View Post
Thank you. Interesting, so basically (now) all players would get the same amount of HRR? So whether you're a 4th line scrub or Crosby, you would get the same amount? And when you say salaries, I'm assuming this has nothing to do with their contracts? This is basically additional income on top of their guaranteed income, yea?
No. You're not quite understanding. If a player signs a contract for a million a year. Under the last CBA that could be adjusted slightly up or slightly down. He might make 1.1 million or he might make 850 thousand. That was because of the 57%. Essentially all the players contracts were added up at the end of the year. If all of them put together was more than 57% of HRR then each player had to give back a portion of their salary (through escrow). If all the contracts added up were less than 57% of HRR then each player would get an amount over what their contract stated so that all the money paid out to players would be 57% of HRR. The players salaries on aggregate were a set percentage of HRR.

The NHLPA is proposing that rather than make all the salaries adjustable to match a set percentage yhey would just be a set $ amount on aggregate. So under the old system if revenues decreased, the amount players were paid would also decrease. Under the PA's proposal if revenues decreased, the amount players got in salary would stay the same.

Again this is talking about salaries as the sum of all salaries payed to players for the year, not an individual. An individuals salary would stil lbe negotiated as it always was.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:23 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Perhaps because public favor was already their way because of the PAs refusal to meet at anytime over the course of the last year? Or maybe because the PA dragged its feet once it began receiving proposals?
It's not like the league has the fans unilaterally on their side here. I'd say that when the lockout first started, there was far more player support than currently and I think the support lost by the players aren't necessarily people who are pro-owner, just people who see through the PA games and sick of the players telling their tall tales to win PR votes. If failure to negotiate over the course of the last year was really a point against the PA, I don't think they would have been heavily favoured when this all started.

You make a point about the PA dragging their feet once league proposals were coming in but like I said, there were very easy PR moves to be made by the league that they chose not to make. It wouldn't have costed them anything to buy some of that PR goodness to elevate their favour with the fans moreso than they already had. Anyways, my point was that the league picks and chooses its PR moments so it's hard to say that 'if they did this for PR, they would do this for PR'. The league has shown that they pick and choose which PR battles to engage in.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:24 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Hullois View Post
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...ue-nhlpa-clos/

And while there's disagreement aplenty, Fehr said: "One thing Bill Daly and I agree on, ... when the moment is right ... a deal will be done very quickly."
Kind of like saying... The deal will be done when the deal is done.

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11-13-2012, 10:24 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
If they honestly insist on getting the full salaries then the season is long gone. Hope it was just a ploy, like my fantasy football trade offer today.
I think thats it, right there.

I think Fehr is a savvy enough negotiator to not automatically concede ground without extracting anything in return.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:26 AM
  #96
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PA has said a few times they would pro-rate their share this year, but want to negotiate a deal based on a full season, and then adjust the numbers afterwards. Either the NHL is playing dumb, or Fehr hasn't communicated that in the bargaining sessions.

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11-13-2012, 10:29 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
If they honestly insist on getting the full salaries then the season is long gone. Hope it was just a ploy, like my fantasy football trade offer today.

Even Fehr isnt that dumb. He was already on the verge of losing the whole season and now he adds even more stuff to make the owners want to just shut it down.

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11-13-2012, 10:30 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
If they honestly insist on getting the full salaries then the season is long gone.
yep, but they won't.. and actually haven't either, or what else "we will later deal with the lockout effects" is supposed to mean?

Fehr just tries to make the other side pay for anything.. if anything, to annoy them.
This is just another case..
players don't expect to be paid for the games they are not playing lol


Last edited by Crease: 11-13-2012 at 10:31 AM. Reason: not needed
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Old
11-13-2012, 10:30 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by tbcwpg View Post
PA has said a few times they would pro-rate their share this year, but want to negotiate a deal based on a full season, and then adjust the numbers afterwards. Either the NHL is playing dumb, or Fehr hasn't communicated that in the bargaining sessions.
I dont remember then saying that even once. I seem to recall their offers to the NHL included full salaries for all players.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:34 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I think thats it, right there.

I think Fehr is a savvy enough negotiator to not automatically concede ground without extracting anything in return.
oh fehr is a savvy negotiator when he doesn't give anything up to receive other things, but when the bettman does it he is being greedy and not negotiating in good faith.

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