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1987 Canada Cup: CCCP vs Canada - Game One, Two & Three

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:35 AM
  #151
Zine
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Not to argue about the 1987 series, but that is just not much of an argument in general. If one side commits 20 fouls and the other 10 but both get 5 penalties it's still unfair.
It seemed like the refs didn't want penalties determining the outcome of the series......however that inadvertently led to Canada getting away with many more blatant fouls than the Soviets.

Likely a case of Team Canada knowing what they could/couldn't get away with in an NHL setting more than the Soviets did.

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11-13-2012, 06:12 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
It seemed like the refs didn't want penalties determining the outcome of the series......however that inadvertently led to Canada getting away with many more blatant fouls than the Soviets.

Likely a case of Team Canada knowing what they could/couldn't get away with in an NHL setting more than the Soviets did.
oh, I'd say the soviets got away with plenty -hooking, holding, pretty blatant interference (they were notorious for picking and koharski let them get away with it throughout the series) and a ton more stickwork. It's unfortunate that russians feel the need to come on these boards and disparage canada's win. lest i forget, canada was battling pretty significant injuries on the wings (only 10 forwards for game 2 and tocchet shouldn't have even been in the lineup for game 3) and, of course, a lack of preparation time is always going to complicate matters. If anything, especially looking at game 1, koharski favoured the soviets because he was fearful of being tagged a homer.

he was definitely the anti-dombrowski. But, hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good yarn (or whine).

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11-13-2012, 08:22 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by whatsupcomrade* View Post
oh, I'd say the soviets got away with plenty -hooking, holding, pretty blatant interference (they were notorious for picking and koharski let them get away with it throughout the series) and a ton more stickwork. It's unfortunate that russians feel the need to come on these boards and disparage canada's win. lest i forget, canada was battling pretty significant injuries on the wings (only 10 forwards for game 2 and tocchet shouldn't have even been in the lineup for game 3) and, of course, a lack of preparation time is always going to complicate matters. If anything, especially looking at game 1, koharski favoured the soviets because he was fearful of being tagged a homer.

he was definitely the anti-dombrowski. But, hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good yarn (or whine).
The sad thing is is Canadian posters that are likely less versed in this series are starting to believe the officiating BS.

The old saying goes that no matter how untrue something is, if you repeat it enough, people will start to believe it.

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11-13-2012, 09:04 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by whatsupcomrade* View Post
oh, I'd say the soviets got away with plenty -hooking, holding, pretty blatant interference (they were notorious for picking and koharski let them get away with it throughout the series) and a ton more stickwork. It's unfortunate that russians feel the need to come on these boards and disparage canada's win. lest i forget, canada was battling pretty significant injuries on the wings (only 10 forwards for game 2 and tocchet shouldn't have even been in the lineup for game 3) and, of course, a lack of preparation time is always going to complicate matters. If anything, especially looking at game 1, koharski favoured the soviets because he was fearful of being tagged a homer.

he was definitely the anti-dombrowski. But, hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a good yarn (or whine).
Its not only Russians with this opinion, actually very far from it. And if someone thinks as such, it doesn't mean that they're 'anti-Canadian', 'disparaging Canada's victory' or 'whining'.
In fact, it's interesting to see how non-Russians and non-Canadians view this series because these people are less prone to having bias...they have little vested interest in the outcome.


Last edited by Zine: 11-13-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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11-15-2012, 02:53 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Its not only Russians with this opinion, actually very far from it. And if someone thinks as such, it doesn't mean that they're 'anti-Canadian', 'disparaging Canada's victory' or 'whining'.
In fact, it's interesting to see how non-Russians and non-Canadians view this series because these people are less prone to having bias...they have little vested interest in the outcome.
I guess most hockey fans from the west were behind the canadians at that time(we were all brainwashed, both sides), but I think most of us agreed that the ref was in favor of Canada even though we cheered for them.

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11-19-2012, 12:00 AM
  #156
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The series reffing was biased and did help Canadians. I don't think there is need to have a debate on that.

And this is coming from a fan of the Finnish national team who had no reason to love the Soviet team - we took several bad beatings back in those times.

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11-19-2012, 03:25 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
The series reffing was biased and did help Canadians. I don't think there is need to have a debate on that.

And this is coming from a fan of the Finnish national team who had no reason to love the Soviet team - we took several bad beatings back in those times.

What do you people expect, to have n.american refs call the game the same as euro refs?

Thats just silly.

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11-19-2012, 10:05 AM
  #158
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These games available in full on youtube? living in the sttes I didnt have tsn and I didnt see these listed on nhl network at all. I would buy the dvd but I domt have money for them

Edit
I see daywalker posted links to the full game on the previous page, thanks will watch soon.


Last edited by yada: 11-19-2012 at 10:19 AM.
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11-19-2012, 10:26 AM
  #159
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When it was televised earlier this year, I watch every moment. I'd have to say the scores were very flattering to the Soviet team, as the Canadians held the play for much longer, and were definately the better team, refs or no refs.

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11-19-2012, 01:22 PM
  #160
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I don't think it's a case of the refs were being "biased" so much as NHL officials being more lenient than European officials. Since Canada played a more physical, rough style than the Soviets, and the Soviets had much better special teams, this would be to Canada's advantage. The opposite was true in Moscow in 1972 - Canadian players complained about biased referees but it was simply European referees calling the game more strictly. Clarke's 12 PIM was certainly deserved.

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11-20-2012, 05:41 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I agree and disagree.

Players today are more physically fit, bigger, stronger, faster.
The equipment is lighter, the sticks allow for a much harder shot (wrist shots, slap shots, etc)

I don't think pure talent, skill level, vision, hockey sense is much different though. The game is the exact same with the exception of a few rules.

I think there's way less interference, holding, clutching/grabbing today AND definitely more of those types of calls. But that hasn't resulted in better game flow and pace.

Seems today, players spend a lot of time racing around the ice at high speeds, hitting hard when they can, dumping and cycling in the corners AND NOT MUCH ELSE.

That's part coaching & systems, for sure, but at the elite level, I don't think the players today have the same level of SKILL as players in that '87 Canada Cup.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Bourque, Messier, Hawerchuk, Gilmour
Fetisov, Kasatonov, Larionov, Makaov, Bykov, Krutov, Kamensky, Khomutov, Lomakin - oh boy, that's just a collection of some of the best players, highest skill level, I've ever seen.

And frankly, adjusted stats, eras, equipment, conditioning notwithstanding, I look at the top 50 NHL scorers in 2012 and see:

Ray Whitney, Jason Pominville, PA Parenteau, Moulson, Sharp, Lupul, Filppula, Pacioretty, Wheeler, Purcell, Ryder......and excuse me for not being "impressed" with that group.

And yes, there were some pretty mediocre top 50 scorer in 1987 (Poddubny RIP, A.Broten, Ruuttu, Kisio) - I get it, but there was Steve Yzerman, Denis Savard, Ron Francis, 58 goal scorer Tim Kerr, Ciccarelli - all left off the team as well.

Sometimes I think it's NOT the era or the way the game is played BUT it actually IS the talent level that was better.

Nobody told Gretzky that he was "now entering the high scoring era and it was okay to start playing more offensively" - did they?

Did they tell Orr "hey, don't be afraid to carry the puck and score 40 goals and lead the NHL in scoring, even though you're a defenseman" - because that's what we're doing now.

Gretzky and Lemieux were, very simply, far better than everyone else in being able to generate chances offensively. Their game was disruptive, they changed the way the game was played, it was NOT the other way around.

So I'm not so surprised that scoring dropped and levelled off when they left.

There aren't players like that in the NHL today, it's a far more even playing field at BOTH the elite level and at player 150.

But how does a higher scoring era come back? Well, I'd say, show me another Gretzky, and the "era" might follow. The NHL has tried to get scoring up, removing obstruction, centre ice line, moving the nets back and forth, making goalie equipment smaller, etc.

Maybe they need another Stamkos who can pick corners?

The game second last game in the Canada Cup, Gretzky had 5 assists and could have had nine with a little luck. In the final game, he had 2 assists and could have had 5-6 points with a little bit of luck.

I think if you remove 99 & 66 the Soviets would have easily beaten Canada because their skill level was impressive and they played really well as a team, they had chemistry, it was obvious they had experience playing together.

Where it was obvious that Canada hadn't played together.
As dynamic as Canada was, a lot of the play was sloppy at times, there was some lineup juggling and both Mario and Wayne were out of sync at times, with one another, and with their teammates/linemates.

But the pure talent, I think, was just a cut above what we see today, even at the Olympic level. Despite the speed and conditioning.

(sorry for being so brief)
Skills are less allowed to be used in this day and age even at a young age. They use system and structures at atom-level these days. And in my opinion it hurts creativity. I remember at one time in the 80 Guy Lafleur said that when he was kid, they would throw a puck on the ice and they would say to the kids, let's go get the puck and score goals. It was the extent of their structure, they didn't even have referees. And I bet it must have been more fun too.

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11-20-2012, 06:19 PM
  #162
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You know people talk about Mario and Wayne being together as special but I watching it now, I get shills everytime Coffey and Bourque are together, the two most dominant defensemen of their time. Talk about a dream team...! It's also strange and nice to see Ray with number 7.

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11-21-2012, 08:58 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
List all "best on best" tournaments, see which ones of them were not held in North America (I'll give you a hint: half of 1972, 1998, and 2006), and see how well did Canada do. If that's not facts, I don't know what "fact" is.
Think you might want to check your facts in 1972. Canada lost the first game in Moscow through a monumental collapse, a game they should have won and a game that proved they were rounding into shape. They did win the next three.

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11-21-2012, 09:02 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Are you blind? Read what I've been in saying about Russia's projected performance in Sochi in, like, every other post?

Espo: I'm not sure what you are arguing about. Re-read my arguments again (especially the part about Playoffs-2012 being held entirely in New Jersey). "B car company tournament"? What's that?

For the emptieth time: we all know Canada is a great hockey nation and can win in North America. We also know they don't do as well in other places. What's there to argue about, really?
You have used three dates to prove that theory. Pretty small sample.

Perhaps if Canada had been allowed to use it's best players from 1953 on we would be talking about a different big red machine.

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12-27-2012, 03:26 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by canuck2010 View Post
You have used three dates to prove that theory. Pretty small sample.

Perhaps if Canada had been allowed to use it's best players from 1953 on we would be talking about a different big red machine.

In the 80s Canada sent loads of the NHL talent to the Hockey Worlds and managed to gain just one victory against the Soviets (in 1985).

The Russians have won a dozen of the WHC games against the Canadian teams that had finest players like Gretzky, Hawerchuk, Nicholls, Francis, Bullard, Vaive, Lemieux, Bellows, Messier, Scott Stevens, Muller, Yzerman etc

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