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Old
11-06-2012, 11:44 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

The Holland hero worshippers always find new ways to polish turds.
There's truth to what you say about controlling salaries, but that's an extremely small part of the puzzle.

We're spending $3M on Sammuelsson. We're spending $2M on tootoo.
Which youngsters are we saving money on, exactly?
They will eat somebody's icetime, who is looking a lucrative extension. Younger or maybe becoming UFA-guy or that guy getting the 2nd contract. Bertuzzi has eaten the PP-icetime from Filppula the previous years etc.

You know how the system works. That's what against we whine all the time. Give more icetime to the youngsters! And take that old goat out from the PP!

But they won't do it, before it matters the most (playoff-time). That's why Filppula (as an example) has produced always more at the playoffs.

The system is there, and it's working just fine. Someday I hate it, some day I love it.

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11-06-2012, 12:09 PM
  #127
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That is a very good point, and if I am one of those guys buried in the AHL, especially someone with obvious NHL talent like Smith, I am going to factor that in when making my decision.
Yeah, this is the business end of over-ripening your prospects. Who really cares if Mattias Ritola or Dick Axelsson never develop? What have you really saved? Certainly not NHL salary.

You may save a few dollars on the front end of a legit NHL player's salary by sticking him in GR beyond his true development period, but it's pretty clear those guys are getting those dollars back, and doing so at a time when they have much stronger leverage: ie, free agency and being paid on contracts with annual salaries that are well above ELC amounts.

I suppose you can make the case that in the end it all balances out in Detroit's favor but the days of home town discounts are over. The closest you can come in recent history was Kronner's last contract before his new one and Val Filppula's most recent contract. It's probably no coincidence both guys were put in Detroit as soon as they'd proven themselves ready. That hasn't been the case with Brendan Smith, Jimmy Howard, Jonathan Ericsson and Kyle Quincey (not a fan but the point stands). Nyquist could arguably be put in that group as he could have certainly contributed on a scoring line in Detroit this past season. Who knows if Jakub Kindl will ever be an NHL player but it would be easy to see him either moving on or asking for more money due to how his career has gone absolutely nowhere - remember when he almost made the team as a 19 year old? I'd guess he moves on. Justin Abdelkader certainly took his time to sign a new deal that more than doubled his salary and he didn't even have to wait very long to work his way into the Detroit lineup.

I'm guessing that's why guys like Cheli, Draper and Maltby were around for so long after the inevitable decline, they basically took what was offered. Same with Bert and Cleary. Young guys who will make up the nucleus of your team going forward have much better bargaining leverage.

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11-06-2012, 12:55 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
And I'm not sure why Philly is so reviled? Is it because they play a bit more of a smash-mouth game? That they have Pronger? That their GM is the opposite of Holland's tortoise-like approach (Ken Holland used to be as crazy as Holmgren)

I don't really care. I think there's a happy medium in there somehwere.
But Detroit doesn't give kids the chance. Maybe we've drafted a bunch of bums.
Maybe Smith and Mursak and Nyquist and Tatar are not NHL talent.
Maybe Quincey never had any business in the NHL.

But I doubt it. I think Detroit is ultra slow in developing prospects -- Not because it's a good way to develop, but because Detroit doesn't have the guts to play rookies over veterans.

And because Detroit has a tendency of being extremely loyal to veterans.
I think part of it is that people keep bringing Philly up while they haven't won anything. If they'd won at least one cup in the past twenty years, it might be a bit easier to take. Not a fan of Holmgren, either, but I so wish we'd been able to grab Pronger at some point. I have no idea why teams kept moving him, unless there was something serious behind the scenes that never leaked.

The Wings did mess up with Smith last year, he should have been in Detroit, and Babs wanted him in Detroit. Stupid sending him to GR for the year when he could have been learning with Lids. Mursak never pushed the issue, though, and Nyquist had never played much more than 40 games in a season. I can see a case for Tatar, because of the points he put up the season before, but there were a ton of questions about his defensive game and willingness to consistently pay the price. I think he had a better argument for this year.

Which the Wings seemed on the verge of boinking at least a bit. I know you didn't care for the signings, but I was fine with them as long as we made other moves to make up room and give guys a fair shot at making the club. With how the labor mess has played out, and how some guys have gotten hurt playing in other leagues/practicing, it's probably not going to matter in the long run, but I was figuring to not be happy about some roster decisions back in October.

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11-06-2012, 04:09 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I think part of it is that people keep bringing Philly up while they haven't won anything. If they'd won at least one cup in the past twenty years, it might be a bit easier to take. Not a fan of Holmgren, either, but I so wish we'd been able to grab Pronger at some point. I have no idea why teams kept moving him, unless there was something serious behind the scenes that never leaked.
Pronger's problems are pretty well documented, it only takes a google search to figure out why he was shipped out of Hartford and Edmonton. St. Louis failed time and again with him and Anaheim could not pay him. He does seem to be a problem with some teammates in the dressing room over the years as well, Philly being the big example of that. In any event we don't do rumor stuff that points to character around here a lot. But much like Marty Brodeur when you look up Pronger online his history shows a guy that might not be the best guy off the ice and while a great hockey player when you read about it, your opinion can change.

One of the things with Philly is they sign guys and then deal them. Some might like this and I am tired of the amount of NTC in the league but the Flyers do some shady things. Some love the aggressive nature, I think Holmgren has gone a step too far at times. On top of that as you referenced they are thought to be one of the big boys even though they have come up short time and again. The Weber thing was going to be hard to avoid taking heat for and really has dropped them into a zone where now a lot of people don't like Holmgren and how Philly operates. Some of us were there before that, but there certainly are more people that scratch their head and point at Philly these days.

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11-12-2012, 10:36 AM
  #130
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You ever notice the prospects that "take too long" to get a shot with the Wings are under 6ft and 185 lbs? Maybe because its a hard game to play when you are getting killed by guys who are 6'4, 220 and skate as fast if not faster than you. Its not a skill problem with these players its a size problem.

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11-12-2012, 10:44 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TS Quint View Post
You ever notice the prospects that "take too long" to get a shot with the Wings are under 6ft and 185 lbs? Maybe because its a hard game to play when you are getting killed by guys who are 6'4, 220 and skate as fast if not faster than you. Its not a skill problem with these players its a size problem.
No that's not it.

1. Hudler is tiny and he made the team really quick.

2. Our draft picks are just smaller normally because we pick later. The high reward bigger players are taken. The Wings have made a point of trying to draft bigger guys in the past few years, but you can't go exclusively on size.

3. Smith isn't small. And he was better than Quincy in my eyes last year.

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11-12-2012, 12:08 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
No that's not it.

1. Hudler is tiny and he made the team really quick.

2. Our draft picks are just smaller normally because we pick later. The high reward bigger players are taken. The Wings have made a point of trying to draft bigger guys in the past few years, but you can't go exclusively on size.

3. Smith isn't small. And he was better than Quincy in my eyes last year.
Well, Hudler did play three seasons in the minors. Things such as the cap and a dominant AHL season forced the matter. If Tatar had a 80+ point season last year combined with his WCH showing, I don't think we would be talking about him having a chance this year, we'd probably be pencilling him in somewhere on the opening day roster.

Agree on the other points.

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11-12-2012, 08:54 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
No that's not it.

1. Hudler is tiny and he made the team really quick.

2. Our draft picks are just smaller normally because we pick later. The high reward bigger players are taken. The Wings have made a point of trying to draft bigger guys in the past few years, but you can't go exclusively on size.

3. Smith isn't small. And he was better than Quincy in my eyes last year.
Size is most of the reason. Tatar, Nyquist, Hudler (4 years after being drafted), Flip all had NHL talent but not NHL strength.

You can't compare defence to forwards. Smith took a pretty standard amount of time for a defenseman.

What forward is over 6ft and 185 that is "over ripe"? The players people coplain about are usually of the small in stature high in skill type.

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11-13-2012, 01:07 AM
  #134
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Jordan Eberle was drafted the same year as Nyquist.

This idea that short people need more time to develop is silly.

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11-13-2012, 02:07 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Trade two of your top players and watch them go on to win a cup the following season?

Bit of a flippant answer, but I'm not sure why Philly is always held up as the team we should emulate. Why not emulate SJ? Or Vancouver? Or Boston? Why should we emulate anyone?

Maybe we haven't had guys force their way onto the roster because we haven't drafted a lot of guys who should be on our roster. We were probably going to see that change a bit this season with Gus and Smith, but we haven't had a guy like Gus and Smith since...well, Flip and Huds (2002).
I'm speaking in terms of developing prospects. I guess you didn't read past my first sentence.

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11-13-2012, 02:24 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Jordan Eberle was drafted the same year as Nyquist.
100 spots later. Pretty clear NHL scouts thought Eberle was closer from day 1. Eberle's also been getting ice on a team that's picked 1st 3 years straight.

Not saying I disagree with your overall intent here, but that's not terribly persuasive example.

Generally, I agree with what Winger98 said awhile back: we haven't had young guys good enough to break the roster. Despite recent backlash against this strategy, the veterans have typically yielded better results. Obviously with an aging core the strategy must adapt, but up until recent years, there was little reason to go with guys of Quincey and Nyquist caliber until they were clear upgrades.

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11-13-2012, 02:29 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Jordan Eberle was drafted the same year as Nyquist.

This idea that short people need more time to develop is silly.
So was Nikita Filatov, what is your point? You can grab almost anyone from a draft year to make some plan of action look bad to hammer home your point. Eberle was much closer to his current weight at the same age, not all guys develop their build at the same rate.

Does anyone really doubt Nyquist wouldn't have been pulled out of school as a 170lbs kid and thrown to the wolves after his sophomore season if he played in Edmonton?

Also curious didn't Eberle run into an injury problem that first year?

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11-13-2012, 02:34 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
100 spots later. Pretty clear NHL scouts thought Eberle was closer from day 1. Eberle's also been getting ice on a team that's picked 1st 3 years straight.

Not saying I disagree with your overall intent here, but that's not terribly persuasive example.

Generally, I agree with what Winger98 said awhile back: we haven't had young guys good enough to break the roster. Despite recent backlash against this strategy, the veterans have typically yielded better results. Obviously with an aging core the strategy must adapt, but up until recent years, there was little reason to go with guys of Quincey and Nyquist caliber until they were clear upgrades.
Tatar was given a nine game cameo as a 19/20 year old didn't do enough to stay.

Nyquist was brought up in his rookie pro season and did enough to stay the second go round. We don't they will bury him yet. So he could Filppula, Datsyuk, Kronwall and Datsyuk track of playing in Detroit fairly quickly.

The Smith slow play is much easier to call out. Nyquist came up pretty fast by Wings standards and when he showed he could contribute they kept him around.

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11-13-2012, 07:53 AM
  #139
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Sad.
People aren't being held back because they are under 6 feet feet tall.

Pathetic.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2008e.html
Comb through it. Lots of guys who aren't very big have made the NHL.
Voynov? Under 6'0 and plays defense. Stepan. 6'0 tall, 160 games under his belt.

Guys drafted after Gus who are smaller than 6'0 with more games played.
Loktiononv, Calvert, Olver, Spurgeon, Atkinson, Ben Smith

Stop pretending the Wings are anything but superslow when it comes to developing prospects.

Using Nyquist's draft position 4 years ,,, that's ridiculous.

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11-13-2012, 07:54 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Tatar was given a nine game cameo as a 19/20 year old didn't do enough to stay.

Nyquist was brought up in his rookie pro season and did enough to stay the second go round. We don't they will bury him yet. So he could Filppula, Datsyuk, Kronwall and Datsyuk track of playing in Detroit fairly quickly.

The Smith slow play is much easier to call out. Nyquist came up pretty fast by Wings standards and when he showed he could contribute they kept him around.
Tatar "was given" a chance during a massive injury spell.

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11-13-2012, 10:07 AM
  #141
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Well, Hudler did play three seasons in the minors. Things such as the cap and a dominant AHL season forced the matter. If Tatar had a 80+ point season last year combined with his WCH showing, I don't think we would be talking about him having a chance this year, we'd probably be pencilling him in somewhere on the opening day roster.

Agree on the other points.
Hudler made the Wings out of camp his first year, and was sent down to Grand Rapids around Christmas when he only had 1-2-3 in 12 games while averaging 8:10 on the fourth line as a 19 year old. That's approximately 10-20-30 if he's playing Bertuzzi's ice time from this past season. Bertuzzi went 14-20-34 at ES. Small sample size, but gives you an idea of why keeping Bertuzzi was dumb. If he weren't a big veteran, he wouldn't have been signed.

Tatar is in a much better position to make the team when the NHL returns; he's been forced to take time and adjust his game for an "any line" role, while Hudler was groomed for a scoring role.

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11-13-2012, 11:20 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hudler made the Wings out of camp his first year, and was sent down to Grand Rapids around Christmas when he only had 1-2-3 in 12 games while averaging 8:10 on the fourth line as a 19 year old. That's approximately 10-20-30 if he's playing Bertuzzi's ice time from this past season. Bertuzzi went 14-20-34 at ES. Small sample size, but gives you an idea of why keeping Bertuzzi was dumb. If he weren't a big veteran, he wouldn't have been signed.

Tatar is in a much better position to make the team when the NHL returns; he's been forced to take time and adjust his game for an "any line" role, while Hudler was groomed for a scoring role.
In what sense is Tatar in even a decent situation with us once the NHL returns? Where exactly do you see him going? Baring anything drastic or injuries, he isnt going to make the top 6. He isnt going to make the third line and there's no point in playing him 4th line minutes. Face it, he isnt even going to be scheduled into this years squad. He's AHL bound with first call-up potential.

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11-13-2012, 11:40 AM
  #143
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In what sense is Tatar in even a decent situation with us once the NHL returns? Where exactly do you see him going? Baring anything drastic or injuries, he isnt going to make the top 6. He isnt going to make the third line and there's no point in playing him 4th line minutes. Face it, he isnt even going to be scheduled into this years squad. He's AHL bound with first call-up potential.
Tatar has been playing well in all situations, and his scoring pace has been consistently comparable to Jordan Eberle so far this season. Small sample size and all, but Tatar on the Wings isn't so much of a stretch this year.

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11-13-2012, 11:48 AM
  #144
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Tatar has been playing well in all situations, and his scoring pace has been consistently comparable to Jordan Eberle so far this season. Small sample size and all, but Tatar on the Wings isn't so much of a stretch this year.
I don't think people are arguing that Tatar shouldn't be on the team, but that given the roster and people signed, he's simply not going to get the chance outside of a bunch of injuries opening a spot.

He should be there, but we signed too many guys without moving any of them.

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11-13-2012, 12:02 PM
  #145
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I don't think people are arguing that Tatar shouldn't be on the team, but that given the roster and people signed, he's simply not going to get the chance outside of a bunch of injuries opening a spot.

He should be there, but we signed too many guys without moving any of them.
I think a lot of those vets were signed because this year Tatar can get a lot of call ups and then be ready to go out of camp in the top 9 right out of camp

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11-13-2012, 12:33 PM
  #146
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I don't think people are arguing that Tatar shouldn't be on the team, but that given the roster and people signed, he's simply not going to get the chance outside of a bunch of injuries opening a spot.

He should be there, but we signed too many guys without moving any of them.
Agreed.

Comparing Tatar's AHL point production this season to Eberle isn't useful and doesn't prove much imo. Tatar is trying to prove that he belongs in the NHL. Eberle is a superstar that it is waiting to get 6 mil per season and is just waiting to start the season fresh and in good shape and probably has same attitude towards AHL as Smith; who gives a ****?

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11-13-2012, 01:40 PM
  #147
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By the way,, Nyquist was in Eberle's draft year. Not tatar.

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11-14-2012, 11:12 AM
  #148
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play the kids. cleary and eaves is always hurt. bert and homer is 57 years old and emmerton/miller is not very good.



Filppula - Datsyuk - Nyqvist
Brunner - Zetterberg - Franzen
Tatar - Helm - Mursak (speeeed)
Abdelkalder - Andersson - Tootoo


yeah, its soft. I know.


Kronwall - White
Smith - Cola
Ericsson - Kindl


Quincey can go to hell.





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11-14-2012, 01:48 PM
  #149
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So with filppula now out 2 months it would seem like tatar is the likely choice to move on up to the wings? Hopefully with s good showing he can stay up for the season.

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11-14-2012, 04:31 PM
  #150
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So with filppula now out 2 months it would seem like tatar is the likely choice to move on up to the wings? Hopefully with s good showing he can stay up for the season.

Nope. There's still Miller and Mursak waiting their turn before Tatar. So there's no need to bring him up to sit in the pressbox. We "need" 2 injuries more to make a spot for him.

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