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2012 CBA Discussion III (Lockout Talk)

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Old
11-13-2012, 08:55 AM
  #876
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Article: Recchi says 'get er done'

http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...nwO/story.html

Also, KPD was on NHL Home Ice this morning. He's of the strong belief that Paul Kelly would have had a deal done by now as he would have begun league discussions even before the end of last season. Now I know there is a lot of KPD hate out there and I don't agree with everything he says, but I agree with this. Big mistake by the players in cutting this guy's legs before he even had a chance to negotiate.

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11-13-2012, 09:08 AM
  #877
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Well put by Rex:

“But look what happened, the players always get their money,’’ he said. “They’re always going to get paid, no matter what. Look at that last deal. We ended up with the cap and everyone thought it was a bad deal. But it ended up great, right? No matter what the system is, or has been, the players get their money. No matter what the contract, the owners always find a way to pay them more. That’s why I say, get a deal and get back in there . . . the money’s always there.’’

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11-13-2012, 09:13 AM
  #878
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I am fed up with this stuff. As a fan and STH its pissing me off. I want my hockey back and if its not done this week I am writing it off as well and will be spending my money on NCAA and AHL and even some EJHL games. Its a joke now.

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11-13-2012, 09:26 AM
  #879
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Totally agreed. I hope the players and owners see it that way, because both sides are losing by dragging this out each day. When I have good friends who are pretty much obsessed with the bruins telling me they won't be renewing their season tickets and or buying anything NHL related for awhile, it's only only a matter of time 'for casual fans slip away

The thing that seems crazy to me is that, in my roughly 17 years of watching the NHL, I've never seen it as popular as it was by the end of last season. I'd be at parties in may into June and people would have an la kings game or a devils game on and actually watching it. The NHL was gaining so much momentum, absolutely foolish for it to be sat on. Gitr done indeed

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11-13-2012, 10:37 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Owners pay the going rate, so in that regard it's not technically overpaying when everyone else is being forced to pay it as well. As long as the money is there the owners will be forced to use it because the players will demand it or go elsewhere. Any owner worth his salt would do so in order to keep his club competitive and therefore profitable. Perhaps if all owners got together and collectively said "we aren't going to spend over this much for any player", but I don't think that's realistic. There will always be one or two who spend frivolously because they want to win.

The system is inherently flawed imo. I guess that much should be obvious by the number of lockouts we've seen in the past 20 years. A salary cap was a step in the right direction, and tying the cap to revenues was a great idea at first when revenues were down. Revenues went up and up however, and while that's a good thing in the big scheme of things the fact that the salary cap has gone up and up with them isn't. There are already teams who can't afford to spend to the upper limit and those teams are constantly at a disadvantage because of that. When certain owners can start saying "hey, lets structure this deal like this so this team can't afford to pay it and we can steal their best player", that's not healthy in my opinion and doesn't make for exciting hockey. I like parity, I like a level playing field. In order to have a healthy league I think both are a necessity.

Now sure, it's easy for the players to say "this is an easy solve, the rich teams just need to give away a bunch more of that money they're making to the poor teams" while guys like Shae Weber sign offer sheets paying him 40+ mill in two years (when Forbes ranks the Predators at around 200 mill total value wise) but that doesn't seem much like a solution to me. I doubt the top tier players would be eager to share some of their salary with the guys making league minimum as most people like to keep the money they are making. At some point the bar needs to be set in a place where it's reasonable to expect all 30 NHL teams to be able to bring in enough revenue (without charging ludicrous sums for tickets and concessions and gouging the fans) and it needs to stay there regardless if revenues climb so that they can realistically be able to spend up to the upper limit without losing money and without having the teams that make more money toe the line for them.
1. Owners set the going rate, and they say the money isn't there. IMO that's a management mistake that players shouldn't have to pay for.

2. Top teir players did agree to share some of their salary when the salary cap was imposed and they took a roll back in salaries. Hell, 10 years ago Holik signed a deal that averaged out to be more per year than any current player other than Ovechkin!

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:42 AM
  #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelvl View Post
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...nwO/story.html

Also, KPD was on NHL Home Ice this morning. He's of the strong belief that Paul Kelly would have had a deal done by now as he would have begun league discussions even before the end of last season. Now I know there is a lot of KPD hate out there and I don't agree with everything he says, but I agree with this. Big mistake by the players in cutting this guy's legs before he even had a chance to negotiate.
I learned the other day that there is a group here that will get all over anyone that brings up the Kelly matter.

Biased KPD or not, that whole thing didnt smell right. Rex spoke up then and is doing so again.

Dont know why we cant appreciate the things Ference dies fir the team on the ice and also admit that many reports implicate him as having a major role in those shenanegins.

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11-13-2012, 10:56 AM
  #882
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The players should listen to the players from the last lockout. They aren't going to get the money from this year back and chances are they are going to take a ****tier deal later.

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11-13-2012, 11:08 AM
  #883
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I honestly wonder how long it can last at this point. Lets say the season gets cancelled. There is a 50/50 chance of that happening at this point from what I've read. Can the lockout extend into 2013-2014 season or even the 2014-2015 season?

At what point does the league look to bring in replacement players? At what point does the NHLPA break? At what point does another league start-up to replace the NHL? I'm sure a decent 10 team league could be built in very short order.

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11-13-2012, 11:45 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
The players should listen to the players from the last lockout. They aren't going to get the money from this year back and chances are they are going to take a ****tier deal later.
That's the owners strategy, cancel the entire season so the players are forced to accept the worst deal possible. Then the first thing you know they'll try to circumvent the new CBA as soon as it's signed.

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11-13-2012, 11:48 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Caballo Blanco View Post
That's the owners strategy, cancel the entire season so the players are forced to accept the worst deal possible. Then the first thing you know they'll try to circumvent the new CBA as soon as it's signed.
Come on now.. they wouldn't do that.. remember they have to deal with ALL the issues, and sacrifice so much more than the players.. i mean they gotta pay for the gas for these planes. Right there thats gotta be what.. all of looch's salary?. They'll always find a way to get around the cba for their own benefit.

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11-13-2012, 11:48 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by Kalus View Post
I learned the other day that there is a group here that will get all over anyone that brings up the Kelly matter.

Biased KPD or not, that whole thing didnt smell right. Rex spoke up then and is doing so again.

Dont know why we cant appreciate the things Ference dies fir the team on the ice and also admit that many reports implicate him as having a major role in those shenanegins.
Most of us do.

The whole topic gets out of control thanks to personal agenda's.

IMO, If you want to talk about the incident you need to stop blaming just Ference and include the others involved: Mike Komisarek, Brad Boyes, Matt Stajan and some HR consultant and leave the personal agenda crap out of it.

Not saying you are btw.

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11-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post

But I do believe they can start the week of Nov 27 - Dec 2
That is my target dates as well. Hope they can figure it out. They need to put both the make whole and the contract issues on the table at the same time.

If the players move closer to the owners make whole; the owners need to give up some of the contracting issues. If the owners agree to the players make whole; the players need to give up some of their contracting issues.

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11-13-2012, 01:01 PM
  #888
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Allan Walsh ‏@walsha

Does Recchi assertion hold up under scrutiny? In 2005, NHL best offer to save season was $42.5M hard salary cap w/ no linkage to revenues.

CBA tied salary cap to revenues. If players signed NHL best offer to save season in Feb, 2005, cap today would be $42.5M. Cap is $70.2M.

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11-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
The players should listen to the players from the last lockout. They aren't going to get the money from this year back and chances are they are going to take a ****tier deal later.
The NHLPA is looking out for the long term interests of the players and shouldn't cave in the short term interests of guys with just a few years left or for guys who are out of the legaue. Ownership has certainly taken a long term apporach. The ****tier deal later is just a hollow threat, no one knows what the eventual agreement will look like.

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Old
11-13-2012, 01:46 PM
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalus View Post
I learned the other day that there is a group here that will get all over anyone that brings up the Kelly matter.

Biased KPD or not, that whole thing didnt smell right. Rex spoke up then and is doing so again.

Dont know why we cant appreciate the things Ference dies fir the team on the ice and also admit that many reports implicate him as having a major role in those shenanegins.
I don't know enough but everything I get is very positive on this guy; one thing I personally like about Kelly is I would run into him a handful of times a year (I wont lie mostly at Four's) but you could say things (atleast I did) to him and he'd listen and engage. Very impressive guy to me and supported by others.

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11-13-2012, 02:15 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by DKH View Post
I don't know enough but everything I get is very positive on this guy; one thing I personally like about Kelly is I would run into him a handful of times a year (I wont lie mostly at Four's) but you could say things (atleast I did) to him and he'd listen and engage. Very impressive guy to me and supported by others.
My thinking is that this may have worked against him. The players didn't want a rep that would actually be able to have a positive conversation with ownership. They wanted a ballbreaker. Well, now they have him and here we stand, doing nothing.

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11-13-2012, 02:17 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
Most of us do.

The whole topic gets out of control thanks to personal agenda's.

IMO, If you want to talk about the incident you need to stop blaming just Ference and include the others involved: Mike Komisarek, Brad Boyes, Matt Stajan and some HR consultant and leave the personal agenda crap out of it.

Not saying you are btw.
Good point. Fair. From the reports, it certainly wasn't just Ference.

Bothers me still though since in everything I read about Kelly, he just seemed like a pragmatic problem solver kind of guy. Of course it was all just words and who knows how he would have handled acrimonious negotiations, but I liked his approach.

Short on bluster and philosophy and more tuned into working with ownership as a partnership. I'd like to think he actually understood the power dynamic between ownership and the union. Could have avoided a lot of this mess. Maybe, maybe not.

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11-13-2012, 02:25 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by ap3lovr View Post
I honestly wonder how long it can last at this point. Lets say the season gets cancelled. There is a 50/50 chance of that happening at this point from what I've read. Can the lockout extend into 2013-2014 season or even the 2014-2015 season?

At what point does the league look to bring in replacement players? At what point does the NHLPA break? At what point does another league start-up to replace the NHL? I'm sure a decent 10 team league could be built in very short order.
You may be right in your last sentence. But where are they going to play? Boston Garden, Staples Center, Madison Square? The NHL owners control most of the ML rinks around the country and in Canada.
My belief is that if they cancel the season, it will break the Union. And, if they tried to start out in 2013-2014, they'd have not only replacement players but NHLers who would cross the line. You could also enlist foreign players. Who knows you could probably entice a certain enigmatic Swedish center to come over. And, of course, there's 2013 draft crop.

Not ideal by any means, and it could take a few years to get back to the quality of play we're used to, but it could happen.


Last edited by Ratty: 11-13-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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11-13-2012, 02:35 PM
  #894
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You may be right in your last sentence. But where are they going to play? Boston Garden, Staples Center, Madison Square? The NHL owners control most of the ML rinks around the country and in Canada.
My belief is that if they cancel the season, it will break the Union. And, if they tried to start out in 2013-2014, they'd have not only replacement players but NHLers who would cross the line. You could also enlist foreign players. Who knows you could probably entice a certain enigmatic Swedish center to come over. And, of course, there's 2013 draft crop.

Not ideal by any means, and it could take a few years to get back to the quality of play we're used to, but it could happen.
They put replacement players on the ice the owners will lose so much money not only in that season.. but for the upcoming years. The ******** for them will be legendary and at least 90% of season ticket holders across the whole league will drop their tickets and you'll see a mass exodus of fans, and the little tv exposure that you already have. If the players we're going to start up a new league or had interest they'd prob have to play in college areanas or something like it. I assume most ahl rinks will be closed to them.

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11-13-2012, 02:48 PM
  #895
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If people were ready to pay these insane prices for replacement players, AHL rinks wouldn't be empty like they are even with cheaper tickets.

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11-13-2012, 03:36 PM
  #896
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No doubt teams would have to reduce ticket prices to put tushes in the cushes. But their payroll would be lower so they could absorb the loss. As I said, it could take a couple of years to get all the way back.

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11-13-2012, 03:49 PM
  #897
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As for the last part...AFTER the meetings the next day they would provide further details....yes, after we reject it we'll tell you about it.
Not fair, OOG. Unless you're leaving something out that you haven't said.

Sounds to me like the PA didn't like the revisions made to "make whole", that they had a sticking point - and that the league didn't offer anything close to where the PA wanted to be with it.

What more does Fehr have to say? And it certainly wouldn't qualify as an obstruction of information.

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11-13-2012, 04:29 PM
  #898
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1. Owners set the going rate, and they say the money isn't there. IMO that's a management mistake that players shouldn't have to pay for.

2. Top teir players did agree to share some of their salary when the salary cap was imposed and they took a roll back in salaries. Hell, 10 years ago Holik signed a deal that averaged out to be more per year than any current player other than Ovechkin!
1. Not really, the market is set by the salary cap and the percentage of it that is the max salary each season. If a player knows he can get more, he and his agent will of course go for it. If it's a top tier player and the owner chooses not to pay the premium someone else surely will. You'd have to get a collective agreement from all 30 NHL owners as to what the max salary they will pay in order for what you say to have merit, and for reasons stated previously I don't believe that is realistic.

2. All players salaries were rolled back, not just top tier players. It took a lockout and a lost season to get the players to that point. The PA was deadset against a salary cap and roll backs back then as well (although I believe Goodenow resigned shortly after the new CBA was struck, and I'm not sure if that had anything to do with a disagreement between he and the players).

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11-13-2012, 05:16 PM
  #899
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Top 10 player salaries the year before the last CBA and the top 10 Salaries this year.

2004
$11,000,000.00Forsberg, Peter
$11,000,000.00Jagr, Jaromir
$11,000,000.00Fedorov, Sergei
$11,000,000.00Bure, Pavel
$10,000,000.00Lidstrom, Nicklas
$10,000,000.00 Tkachuk, Keith
$9,880,939.00 Sakic, Joe
$9,500,000.00 Pronger, Chris
$9,326,519.00Blake, Robert
$9,000,000.00LeClair, John


2012
$14,000,000 Weber, Shea
$12,000,000Richards, Brad
$12,000,000Myers, Tyler
$12,000,000Parise, Zach
$12,000,000Suter, Ryan
$11,000,000 Kovalchuk, Ilya
$10,000,000 Lecavalier, Vincent
$9,000,000 Malkin, Evgeni
$9,000,000 Ovechkin, Alex
$8,500,000 Staal, Eric

During the years in between league revenue grew by about 50% (from 2.1 to 3.3 billion) and Bettman's salary grew from 3.7 mil to 8.

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11-13-2012, 05:20 PM
  #900
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Tyler Myers makes 12 mil??


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