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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:58 AM
  #176
Barrie22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Yeah, my point is just that isn't it very likely that its just that which is mentioned when they talk about who should pay for the lockout?

I mean, some seem to believe the absurd idea that if -- for example -- half the revenue of the league is lost this season the players would want 100% of revenue.
no when fehr talks about it, its about who is going to pay for the lost wages of the players.

fehr could care less about the sponsors (which is actually funny)

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11-13-2012, 11:59 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Mark Recchi, who benefited to the tune of about $51,000,000 over his career, should just keep his mouth shut and let today's players worry about today's CBA.
You mean like Lindros and the others who essentially run the NHLPA? Or is that excluded from the revisionist's history.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:00 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
Pro rating whatever they decide on core economic issues should solve #3 though no? Get to 50/50 and if the owners agree, toss in a wage inflator to solve #1 and we are left with contract rights. I would extend UFA to 28, add in a 5% movement from year to year and cap them at 10 years or something.
It depends on escrow. If NHL believes they can only earn $2.5B for a shortened season (60 games), then 50% of that would be $1.25B to the players, or a 34% shave off the initial contracts. Then for the make whole, they would say we will pay 66% of the $230M difference between 50% and 57%, which is $151M. In total, players would be paid this year $1.4B with a 15% escrow risk (to the upside or downside).

On the other hand, players could say they think the shortened season will bring in $3B in revenues, so they'd want $1.5B in salaries + the full $230M for the make whole, all with a lower escrow percentage (out of the $1.5B). Players would earn $1.73B this way.

Just "pro-rating" on different numbers could make a $300M+ gap between players and owners.

Considering players would have earned $1.65 by having a full season at 50/50, getting prorated to the owner's scenario would be a net loss for the players in the first year of $250M (which btw shows the pure idiocy of thinking a better deal will come later) while using their own "split" proposal would still see them salvage $80M over accepting the NHL's 50-50 offer for a full season if revenues are higher than projected by the NHL (as if you take out the $150M in escrow they still come up short by $70M).

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11-13-2012, 12:00 PM
  #179
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Well let's see here. 57% of $3.2B is $1.8B

Loss of $400M so far leaves total revenue at $2.8B. $2.8B / $3.2B = 88% of season.

Add the raise on the top: $1.83B. Prorate by 88% = $1.6B = 51% of $3.2B

BUT (and this is a big BUT): $1.6B = 58% of ACTUAL REVENUE (which is $2.8B)

It's a percentage, so pro-rating it by the revenue lost doesn't do anything. Pro-rating 57%+1.75% of a full season still gives you 57%+1.75% of a partial season.

Again we are being distracted here by qualitative arguments like 'oh there is no way the NHLPA is demanding that' which somehow excuses the fact that the NHLPA continues to ask for a de-linked number with a guaranteed raise in a situation where their employers are asking for a cut in salaries.

Actually, continuing to ask for de-linkage to make a point would be something I would be ok with. IN JULY. It is halfway through November and you can see the dollars falling out of the hole in the player's wallets.

Fehr cannot get the NHL to 'pay for the damage to the league'. He can't get the lost salary back. There is nothing he can get back barring the sudden possession of the NHL owners by the ghost of Zeigler.

I felt bad for the player's plight before but now I am slowly warming to the idea of basking in the schadenfreude of watching them pay for letting their union fall into the clutches of bitter (fringe!) ex-players and lawyers....but evidently no economists or accountants.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:00 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Hasn't there been talk about Molson discussing compensation for the lockout with the league?
The quote from Molson was:

Quote:
ďThere will be some redress for us as a result of this. I canít quantify that and I donít know because I donít know the scale of how long the lockout is going to last.Ē



Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Mo...#ixzz2C7uGqm4z
Redress in this manner refers to 'making amends' or 'to set right'. To say that there will be redress for us seems more likely that there is already an agreement in place where Molson will be compensated once the lockout is over rather than to say that Molson will seek compensation from the league.

I'd find it hard to believe that the league would institute a lockout and not provide their sponsors with any sort of potential redress for money lost to their business because of the lockout. It would just seem like bad business practice not to address those issues beforehand or early on in the lockout. If there wasn't some sort of acknowledgement by league and sponsors, I'd imagine that news of sponsors putting pressure on the league would be running rampant by now.

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11-13-2012, 12:00 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultra63 View Post
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/hocke...-talks/1261233

"These blockheads are about to take a sport that barely registers in this country anyway, pack it into a crate and chuck it over a cliff. For the first time since this NHL lockout started 59 days ago, it really does feel like the season is in jeopardy."

"The NFL hasn't lost a game to a labor dispute in the past 20 years. The NBA has lost 504.

Meantime, Major League Baseball has lost 938 games in addition to the 1994 postseason — all while Fehr was running the MLB players' union. And, no sport has lost more games over the past 20 years than the NHL — an incredible 1,698, all on Bettman's watch.

How can we trust that the two men half responsible for the biggest labor messes in North American sports over the past two decades are the right negotiators to hammer out this deal?"
Haha, I love it that the most upset people in media at the lockout is stationed in...

...Tampa.

Where is Don Cherry? What a clown that is. Talk about showing his true colours. Send me a check.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:02 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
no when fehr talks about it, its about who is going to pay for the lost wages of the players.

fehr could care less about the sponsors (which is actually funny)
Ok, so you got a link to that being reported anywhere or something? Or are you in on the meetings?

No? I could have guessed that...

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11-13-2012, 12:02 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Hasn't there been talk about Molson discussing compensation for the lockout with the league?

65% is just BS, but we will keep hearing stuff like that from the league since they are never called out for it...

Imagined if Fehr walked up to a bunch of repoters and said "Hey Bettman just offered us 30%", and it turned out he was just BSing them? He would have been killed by media...
It's not BS if in fact the PA are asking for $1.915B this year regardless of # of games.

If they aren't, they haven't apparently effectively communicated this to the league.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:03 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Mark Recchi, who benefited to the tune of about $51,000,000 over his career, should just keep his mouth shut and let today's players worry about today's CBA.
Can't he be disappointed in the fact that the players are losing money and time?

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:04 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Mark Recchi, who benefited to the tune of about $51,000,000 over his career, should just keep his mouth shut and let today's players worry about today's CBA.
So someone who went through 2 lockouts and actually understands the players are losing money they will never see again shouldnt speak up about that fact? Or the fact that the deals arent going to get much better if better in anyway shape or form? Maybe, just maybe, hes actually looking out for the players best interests.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:04 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Artz19 View Post
It's not BS if in fact the PA are asking for $1.915B this year regardless of # of games.

If they aren't, they haven't apparently effectively communicated this to the league.
Based on the assumption of a specific HRR-- as has been reported.

Show me one single report stating that the PA want that no matter what the HRR ends up being.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...fgPLGAnT5fPrJN
Quote:
Allow me to apologize for passing along misinformation on my @NYP_Brooksie Twitter account on Friday that the NHLPA had proposed the players be paid their full salaries for this season. Not so.

There was much confusion into the night on this one, but the true story is the union was basing its revenue projections off a hypothetical full 2012-13 and not a hard-dollars share for this year. Indeed, the PA expects pay to be prorated for this season.

I choose to believe that my original sources made a mistake and were not intentionally attempting to deceive, but the mistake was mine in forwarding the reports absent confirmation.

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11-13-2012, 12:05 PM
  #187
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So instead of working with the NHL and getting a CBA done, the players want guaranteed raises.

Too bad if they negotiated back in the summer and were actually playing now, revenues would naturally go up and they would be getting their raises anyways...

Or do the players know their stupid holdout policy is going to cost the league revenue and want to benefit from it...

Seems to me they don't realize they are hurting the hand that feeds them..

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:05 PM
  #188
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Does anyone have a timeline update for further game cancellations?

I recall seeing some estimates, but can't find them in the threads.

i.e. - a deal must be in place by Nov.?? to have training camp and first game on Dec.1st?

- or deal by US Thanksgiving Nov.22 before entire month-of-December is cancelled?

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11-13-2012, 12:05 PM
  #189
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Mat Darche was on TSN radio 990 speaking about the lockout for almost 90 minutes. Some interesting stuff there, I noticed he had to catch himself a few times. You can probably get the interview on their website since they post everything for download.

FWIW he said they aren't that far off and he thinks they'll have a deal soon.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:06 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
You mean like Lindros and the others who essentially run the NHLPA? Or is that excluded from the revisionist's history.
Is Lindros even involved with the PA anymore?

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11-13-2012, 12:06 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Yeah, my point is just that isn't it very likely that its just that which is mentioned when they talk about who should pay for the lockout?

I mean, some seem to believe the absurd idea that if -- for example -- half the revenue of the league is lost this season the players would want 100% of revenue in y1. Hmm, yeah that sounds credible. But Daly said it...
I keep hearing the update on Montreal radio about "Who's going to pay for the money lost during the lockout"

Each time I hear it, I want for the players to get hammered even more.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #192
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The Daly quotes mean we are back in PR spin mode. Sad.

The league has to sweeten the deal for the PA. It's that simple really.
I think alot of people don't understand just how much future dollars the league will be raking in up'ing their share to 50 percent of the course of the CBA. Those numbers reach the billion number. If you absolutely can't pay out year 1, promise them more dollars on the tail end when everyone expects more growth to happen.

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11-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Mat Darche was on TSN radio 990 speaking about the lockout for almost 90 minutes. Some interesting stuff there, I noticed he had to catch himself a few times. You can probably get the interview on their website since they post everything for download.

FWIW he said they aren't that far off and he thinks they'll have a deal soon.
darche, isnt he the one who has been running his mouth an awful lot on twitter?

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Mat Darche was on TSN radio 990 speaking about the lockout for almost 90 minutes. Some interesting stuff there, I noticed he had to catch himself a few times. You can probably get the interview on their website since they post everything for download.

FWIW he said they aren't that far off and he thinks they'll have a deal soon.
This is just the Unions latest PR tactic. Say they are close to get the public all excited and then when things break down they will just blame the owners.

"we were so close to getting back on the ice and giving the fans what they want and the NHL said no"

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11-13-2012, 12:08 PM
  #195
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Pro-rating the revenue for this season ASSUMES all costs are directly variable? LOL What a mess.

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11-13-2012, 12:09 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
You mean like Lindros and the others who essentially run the NHLPA? Or is that excluded from the revisionist's history.
Recchi played for over 20 years and was a part of more than one CBA negotiation. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe the guy understands that the players will never get that money back.

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11-13-2012, 12:09 PM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Mat Darche was on TSN radio 990 speaking about the lockout for almost 90 minutes. Some interesting stuff there, I noticed he had to catch himself a few times. You can probably get the interview on their website since they post everything for download.

FWIW he said they aren't that far off and he thinks they'll have a deal soon.
The same Mat Darche who currently has no contract and has been sounding off on Twitter about the owners and against fans alike? That one? Because if that's the gist of his interview, then that's quite a change of attitude since I last saw tweets of his being posted.

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11-13-2012, 12:10 PM
  #198
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This is just the Unions latest PR tactic. Say they are close to get the public all excited and then when things break down they will just blame the owners.

"we were so close to getting back on the ice and giving the fans what they want and the NHL said no"
Exactly! Too bad for him and the PA that we the fans have even more access to information then ever before. They info on what Fehr is demanding is an embarrassment. I don't understand how anyone can support the players now after all we have come to know about this process.

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11-13-2012, 12:12 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Pro-rating the revenue for this season ASSUMES all costs are directly variable? LOL What a mess.
That's a good point. So pro-rating 57%+1.75% raise not only still results in 57%+1.75% of a partial season but a season in which the owner's reduced share is likely even more impacted by their non-HRR related costs.

But the NHL is clearly going to fold and accept those terms.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:13 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by MikeK View Post
Exactly! Too bad for him and the PA that we the fans have even more access to information then ever before. They info on what Fehr is demanding is an embarrassment. I don't understand how anyone can support the players now after all we have come to know about this process.
The general public, the ones who dont read the proposals and what not, are buying Fehr's spin work.

People still think the Make Whole will come out of the players share and that the owners wont honor current deals. Too bad that has been settled already.

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