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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Mark Recchi's advice to players is to sign CBA now

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:46 PM
  #26
Bubba Thudd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
The players already lost more than they'll ever get. Even if they 'win' the cba.
So? They're millionaires, they can afford it.
If they were living paycheck to paycheck like some of us, they'd think twice about it.
The luxury of being rich.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:46 PM
  #27
Fugu
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
Heh, when one of the players posts something the pro-owner people agree with it gets it's own thread.

Don't worry, Toastie. I'm about as anti-Bettman as you can get. What we cannot control is that HFB, unlike many other outlets at least to my eyeball check, is far more pro-owner in quantity of posters willing to enter the fray.

This is the world's largest hockey message board, so we attract a lot of attention.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:46 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Your argument sucks.

The lockout is more about the future than it is about the now. If the league doesn't respect the union, it will just use brinkmanship time and time again to continually strip away player compensation and rights.
Thank you for proving the point that fear is what is driving the PA.

This has nothing to do with the game or what's fair; this is about fearing something that is not there.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:50 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
Near as I can tell, the two sides have significantly different definitions of what "make whole" is.

May be true. One side calls it Make Whole and the other calls it Make Partial.
Plus the contracting rights issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
And Recchi adds another title to his resume:
Professional hockey player
Doctor
Labour relations expert



I don't know how ANYONE can argue that 'this is the best offer the players will get' when that's been proven untrue several times now.
I guess we have to wait and see what the final deal turns out to be. If they cave on the key issues, it's clear that they should have caved at the beginning. They only win if they manage to hang on to the things important to them on contracting rights and also get a soft landing-- in my honest opinion.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:52 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I'm not sure why you assume obstruction/conflict is the path that will lead to the best CBA for the players.

Because a lockout by its very nature is obstructionist and adversarial.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:53 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Because a lockout by its very nature is obstructionist and adversarial.
So trying to get a CBA in place before a lockout would be a good thing?

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Thank you for proving the point that fear is what is driving the PA.

This has nothing to do with the game or what's fair; this is about fearing something that is not there.

History would indicate that lockouts are the tool of first choice among three of the four leagues in NA.

The MLB, on the other hand, just renewed yet another CBA rather quietly.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:55 PM
  #33
Erik Estrada
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So Dr. Recchi M.D also had the time to finalize a jurisdoctorate in labor law in between neuropsychiatry and traumatology courses... I appreciate his learned counsel on the lockout about as much as the Paccioretty diagnosis.

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:56 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So trying to get a CBA in place before a lockout would be a good thing?

Only if you agree to a league's demands is that possible.

I'm tired of arguing this with you, but I think the difference is that you believe the NHL would be reasonable in their demands of a PA and thus not resort to a lockout. I do not hold that view. I'm pretty sure the PA knew over a year ago that the NHL was going to try to get 48-50% of perhaps a redefined HRR even, and target contracting rights. Bettman had indicated for quite some time he was going after the cap circumventing mechanisms.

You don't have to be Fehr to understand what that means to the PA.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:01 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Because a lockout by its very nature is obstructionist and adversarial.
Fugu - at any point in the process were the PA not adversarial?

And I totally acknowledge the point that the owners initial lowball offer didn't allow for a non-adverserial relationship. I can only think that the NHL concluded with the hiring of Fehr in 2011 that the battle lines were drawn. Nothing that occurred after Fehr coming on board (refusal to commence negotiation several times, the PA denying WIN's relocation to the Western Conference, etc) let the league to know this was going to be adversarial and not two parties working together constructively.

This is the real failure of the NHL and the PA IMO. Kelly was apparently sacked for wanting to work with the league, and Fehr was brought on board to fight a war. Bettman's lacks any sort of credibility with the PA due to the acriminous nature of the previous CBA negotiations, and that significantly impacts the ability of the two parties to work together.

Personally, Bettman should have been let go after the last CBA was agreed to. Because of all the history, I would say at this point, he is a significant inhibitor to getting a deal done.


Last edited by Beukeboom Fan: 11-13-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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Old
11-13-2012, 03:03 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
History would indicate that lockouts are the tool of first choice among three of the four leagues in NA.

The MLB, on the other hand, just renewed yet another CBA rather quietly.
And it took substantially less threat (or realization!) of a player strike to get that CBA approved than any of the CBA's the MLBPA negotiated with Donald Fehr at the helm.

And to suggest that the league's utilize lockouts any more readily than players utilize strikes is to completely ignore history. It was the NHL strike in 1992 and the MLB strike in 1994 that have forced the owner's current strategy. And in this specific case, it's been clear the obstructionist strategy pursued by the NHLPA for well over a year now.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:05 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Only if you agree to a league's demands is that possible.

I'm tired of arguing this with you, but I think the difference is that you believe the NHL would be reasonable in their demands of a PA and thus not resort to a lockout. I do not hold that view. I'm pretty sure the PA knew over a year ago that the NHL was going to try to get 48-50% of perhaps a redefined HRR even, and target contracting rights. Bettman had indicated for quite some time he was going after the cap circumventing mechanisms.

You don't have to be Fehr to understand what that means to the PA.
That is your belief that a slightly more cooperative approach couldn't have gotten a good CBA for the players in time. It's not a truth. We do know what Fehr's approach has led to.

If you construct a world view where any other option than the one Fehr is taking would be worse for the players it's hard to come to any other conclusion than it's good that the players have Fehr. But then you are very close to labor theology.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by RandR View Post
I completely agree with this point. An analogy would be somebody hiring high-priced legal to try to "win" a divorce case and at some point spending so much money fighting the case that even if they get some sort of "win" they would have ended up farther ahead if they had settled early; however, they are too focused on "winning" and making sure the "evil party" on the other side doesn't get away with too much to realize that.

Fehr is that high-priced lawyer in this case.
Before we were married, my wife went threw a nasty divorce, and we called it "arguing over the toaster & crock-pot." They were literally paying their combined lawyers $600+ per hour to figure out who got the $40 toaster. Absolutely ridiculous.

Term is called a Pyrhic Victory for wargamers. Even if you "win", it cost you so much that it wasn't worth fighting in the first place.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:14 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I guess we have to wait and see what the final deal turns out to be. If they cave on the key issues, it's clear that they should have caved at the beginning. They only win if they manage to hang on to the things important to them on contracting rights and also get a soft landing-- in my honest opinion.
Caved at the beginning of the lockout? When the league was offering 46% and zero "make whole" payments?

That would have been a much bigger financial hit for the players than what has currently been lost due to the lockout. Especially when you consider that any concessions the players make will probably persist for several CBA's into the future. And then there's the precedent.

Nope, the league HAD to learn that they couldn't just get the players to cave and give them everything they want. At this point, the onus is on the league. We pretty much know what the players are willing to return for, and that the league would be able to function just fine with where they stand. So it's up to the owners to decide whether they want to continue trying to "break" the players or whether to just get back to playing hockey.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:18 PM
  #40
Fred Brathwaite
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I disagree. This is the third lockout. The NBA and NFL, the former being extremely financially successful, also had lockouts in order to revamp their CBAs. It would happen regardless of who the PA head is, and just how bad the deal for the players would get would depend on that too. Hence Fehr.
The NHL is in a completely different position. They could not afford to lose any more games due to the past lockouts and the overall popularity of the sport.

The NHL is in a much more vulnerable position than the NBA and NFL.

The NHL wants/needs a season. I hate bettman but I still believe that Fehr deserves most of the blame for this whole situation.

If negotiations would have started sooner and if the representative of the PA would be focused on trying to make a deal rather than playing hardball I think things would be different.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:21 PM
  #41
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That's pretty rich to accuse Fehr of playing hardball, but not Bettman.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:27 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
So? They're millionaires, they can afford it.
If they were living paycheck to paycheck like some of us, they'd think twice about it.
The luxury of being rich.
Agree with this guy, and more specifically, they're not LOSING more money than they will earn. This will be a 6 or 7 year deal and in the next NHL lockout, the league will be trying to get the PA down from 50%. This is percentages, this would have to go on for a few years for them to actually "lose" money in the long term - short term, they are defiantly losing money.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:27 PM
  #43
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He's right, the players are going to get paid handsomely either way.

The non-collusion nature of NHL ownership ensures a constantly hyper-competitive market for players as most teams basically want to get better. The fact that the NHL draws mediocre TV ratings only puts more pressure on GMs to have a good product on the ice, because the NHL is a gate-driven league. If your team's not good you're not even going to get 10,000 people showing up a night at $20 a pop unless you are in Canada.

The PA should've settled on 50-50 a long time ago, phased in gradually with the caveat that things like contract term and some level of front loading of deals be allowed to stay.

They could've avoided having the players to basically throw away 1/3-1/2 of their salary this season.

But noooooo. We had to lose a big chunk of the season, maybe even the entire season and the NHLPA is going to end up accepting 50-50 revenue split and a lot of what the owners want, everyone knows that.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:34 PM
  #44
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Mark Recchi was a heckuva player. Mark Recchi went thru two lockouts. Mark Recchi has balls to tell his opinion and he can say anything he want. It's not like he shouldn't say anything because this is not his business anymore. It's exact opposite, Mark Recchi doesn't need to listen anybody and nobody can shut his mouth or steer his opinions. And I think he's got no intentions to hurt anyone, least the players.

I think he does it well. Tells what he thinks. Mark Recchi is the Man.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:36 PM
  #45
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It amazes me how quick players flip sides once they retire. Makes me think that all the genuine loyalty goes towards the $$$ no matter what supposed "character" the good ol' Canadian boys have

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:40 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
So Dr. Recchi M.D also had the time to finalize a jurisdoctorate in labor law in between neuropsychiatry and traumatology courses... I appreciate his learned counsel on the lockout about as much as the Paccioretty diagnosis.
My thoughts exactly when he opened his mouth.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:43 PM
  #47
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He has too much first hand experience with too many franchises and too many different types of owners. He's been a part of 2 strikes and a lockout and knows front office people in almost every franchise, not to mention hundreds of players. He's been a beneficiary of the strikes and loser of a lockout.

He's too educated, too experienced, and too rational to be taken seriously in my opinion. The game may benefit if he was listened to, so I expect his opinions to be dismissed quickly.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:44 PM
  #48
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He's an MD and has a PHD in Labour Relations.

Impressive.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:45 PM
  #49
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This part I especially agree with:

Quote:
But look what happened, the players always get their money. They're always going to get paid, no matter what. Look at that last deal. We ended up with the cap and everyone thought it was a bad deal. But it ended up great, right? No matter what the system is, or has been, the players get their money. No matter what the contract, the owners always find a way to pay them more. That's why I say, get a deal and get back in there...the money's always there.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:45 PM
  #50
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It doesn't take an MBA to look back at the three work stoppages you participated in during your career and say, "Man, I wish we did things differently."

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