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Old
11-13-2012, 11:15 AM
  #501
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Based on what I've seen so far, Lindholm is my second favorite forward in the draft.

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11-13-2012, 11:21 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Based on what I've seen so far, Lindholm is my second favorite forward in the draft.
For me, third behind Mackinnon and Barkov, but ahead of Drouin.


Last edited by AJMHABS: 11-13-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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11-13-2012, 11:24 AM
  #503
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He's behind Barkov and Mackinnon for me, ahead of Drouin.

He could end up better than Barkov when all is said and done, but Barkov's development curve is basically unprecedented.

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11-13-2012, 12:10 PM
  #504
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Here's my scouting report on Drouin: Back Row, Corner Seat Scouting Report: Jonathan Drouin

Quote:
Jonathan Drouin entered the 2012/2013 season in a position that would be envied by any draft eligible prospect this year. He would be a go-to player on a powerhouse team with several high profile players, allowing him to fly under the radar while playing alongside superstar teammate and potential 1st overall pick, Nathan MacKinnon.

Well, Jonathan had other ideas.

Drouin opened the season with 15 pts in his first 7 games, exceeding the output of MacKinnon before a shoulder injury sidelined him for 6 games in October. Since returning from injury, Drouin has 14 points in 7 games and while he certainly hasn’t stolen the spotlight from MacKinnon just yet, they’re definitely sharing it now.

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11-13-2012, 12:38 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by maplehawk View Post
Here's my scouting report on Drouin: Back Row, Corner Seat Scouting Report: Jonathan Drouin
Good read, and he is now dominating the Q with 2.PPG+ pace, and has played less games than most of the players above and below him.

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11-13-2012, 03:41 PM
  #506
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I don't understand the obsession with small, weak forwards. Surely we've had enough of those over the past 25 years???

We need to get solid, good sized, talented forwards. Enough smurfs. Monahan, Lazar, Kerby Rychel, are all solid tough skilled players. MacKinnon would be an obvious choice... Erne, Barkov would be great as well.

Time to get bigger though, and I really like the thought of Monahan/Galchenyuk up the middle.

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11-13-2012, 03:54 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I don't understand the obsession with small, weak forwards. Surely we've had enough of those over the past 25 years???

We need to get solid, good sized, talented forwards. Enough smurfs. Monahan, Lazar, Kerby Rychel, are all solid tough skilled players. MacKinnon would be an obvious choice... Erne, Barkov would be great as well.

Time to get bigger though, and I really like the thought of Monahan/Galchenyuk up the middle.
It's simple.

I don't think it's an obsession more than the fact that I really think that most of the people here get excited about Drouin mostly because he is QUEBECER.

Would people be as excited if Drouin was not quebecer? I don't think so.

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11-13-2012, 03:59 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by HockeyFan87 View Post
It's simple.

I don't think it's an obsession more than the fact that I really think that most of the people here get excited about Drouin mostly because he is QUEBECER.

Would people be as excited if Drouin was not quebecer? I don't think so.
Or maybe it's the fact he's in the top 3 in terms of pure skill when it comes to the forwards in this draft, he's blessed with terrific hockey IQ, competes hard on every shift, goes to the traffic areas and he's a kid who raised his game big time in the playoffs last spring as a 16 year old?

The insinuation that he's ''weak'' is ridiculous.

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11-13-2012, 04:01 PM
  #509
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Drouin is small. As for Lindholm, I won't say anything before the combine. But, in the end, you should always take BPA.

I can see Monahan taken before Drouin, because he has it all. But Rychel and Lazar ? I don't see them as being clearly better than Drouin. They're bigger, but he's more skilled in my opinion.

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11-13-2012, 04:17 PM
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyFan87 View Post
It's simple.

I don't think it's an obsession more than the fact that I really think that most of the people here get excited about Drouin mostly because he is QUEBECER.

Would people be as excited if Drouin was not quebecer? I don't think so.
He's an amazing player, and he's french, there is nothing wrong with liking him because of those two characteristics.

That's like getting angry at a Swede for wanting the best Swedish player in years to be drafted by your team..

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11-13-2012, 04:22 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by HockeyFan87 View Post
It's simple.

I don't think it's an obsession more than the fact that I really think that most of the people here get excited about Drouin mostly because he is QUEBECER.

Would people be as excited if Drouin was not quebecer? I don't think so.
Here we go again

Anyone would be excited by the best ppg '13 draftee in the entire CHL... but hey, because he's Quebecer, we shouldn't be excited by him.

Stop insulting us, we know our hockey.

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11-13-2012, 04:22 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by DoingItLeBlancWay View Post
He's an amazing player, and he's french, there is nothing wrong with liking him because of those two characteristics.

That's like getting angry at a Swede for wanting the best Swedish player in years to be drafted by your team..
Exactly this.

Saying that one of those characteristic is necessarily dependent of the other is wishful thinking. It can and does happen, but it should not be seen as a rule.

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11-13-2012, 04:22 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I don't understand the obsession with small, weak forwards. Surely we've had enough of those over the past 25 years???

We need to get solid, good sized, talented forwards. Enough smurfs. Monahan, Lazar, Kerby Rychel, are all solid tough skilled players. MacKinnon would be an obvious choice... Erne, Barkov would be great as well.

Time to get bigger though, and I really like the thought of Monahan/Galchenyuk up the middle.
The last time the Habs tried to draft size in the first round, it was the 1990s.

1990, 12th overall, Turner Stevenson, 6'3"
1991, 17th overall, Brent Bilodeau, 6'4"
1992, 20th overall, David Wilkie, 6'3"
1993, 21 st overall, Saku Koivu, 5'10"
1994, 18th overall, Brad Brown, 6'3"
1995, 8th overall, Terry Ryan, 6'1"
1996, 18th overall, Matt Higgins, 6'2"
1997, 11th overall, Jason Ward, 6'2"
1998, 16th overall, Eric Chouinard, 6'2"

In the 1990s the Habs tried to draft size in the first round and you can see the result. There was one year, 1993, when they went for skill and not size, and they got a different result.

You want to pick BPA. Size is possibly the most overrated attribute on draft day and thus you end up with losses. You can get size on the UFA market, and in any case the Habs are not as small as they used to be.

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Old
11-13-2012, 04:25 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Rikiki Bousquet View Post
Drouin is small. As for Lindholm, I won't say anything before the combine. But, in the end, you should always take BPA.

I can see Monahan taken before Drouin, because he has it all. But Rychel and Lazar ? I don't see them as being clearly better than Drouin. They're bigger, but he's more skilled in my opinion.
Could be right, but I do agree with HF87 that he's overhyped because of playing with MacKinnon and because he's French. Just like all the Huberdeau and Couturier trade threads that appear regularly...

I'm just sick of fragile, small guys that continuously disappear during the tough games. Not saying that is/will be the case with Drouin, just overall in general.

MacKinnon/Jones/Monahan are the guys I think the Habs should target if they retain a top 3 pick.

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11-13-2012, 04:34 PM
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I don't understand the obsession with small, weak forwards. Surely we've had enough of those over the past 25 years???

We need to get solid, good sized, talented forwards. Enough smurfs. Monahan, Lazar, Kerby Rychel, are all solid tough skilled players. MacKinnon would be an obvious choice... Erne, Barkov would be great as well.

Time to get bigger though, and I really like the thought of Monahan/Galchenyuk up the middle.
I agree with this for the most part. We need more big, strong guys who can put the puck back in the back of the net. However, when you have a high pick, you take the best player available. If that's a tough skilled player, good. If not, that's good too.

I would love a Wilson/Biggs/Matteau type player in the organization, I just don't want to use a first round pick on a player like that (Wilson is a special case though, he's definitely worth a 1st rounder). Especially since you can find a lot of similar players in later rounds like Ritchie, Leivo, Camara, etc. Personally, I want to get someone with a bit of crazy in them like Zack Kassian. You needs guys like that on your team. Problem is that they are so rare and more than likely going to be a high pick. It's why I like the Dalton Thrower pick so much.

Draft candidates this year? Kerby Rychel certainly ain't one of them. Last night was the most physical I think I've ever seen him play. He's not a powerforward and not the most skilled guy either. He does have a good wrister and an excellent nose for the net. Certainly not someone I would throw in the solid tough skilled players category.

Lazar would nice though. He'd look fantastic on this team. Centre depth of Galchenyuk/Lazar/Eller be would awesome. Skilled, big and defensively responsible.


Last edited by That: 11-13-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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11-13-2012, 04:35 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
Could be right, but I do agree with HF87 that he's overhyped because of playing with MacKinnon and because he's French. Just like all the Huberdeau and Couturier trade threads that appear regularly...

I'm just sick of fragile, small guys that continuously disappear during the tough games. Not saying that is/will be the case with Drouin, just overall in general.

MacKinnon/Jones/Monahan are the guys I think the Habs should target if they retain a top 3 pick.
Both MacKinnon and Drouin are 5'11 and about 175-180lbs... your argumentation is flawed, Drouin is sure to be a top 10 pick this year, and has a chance to be top 5. Just look on the prospects board to see how fans from other teams see him, and as far as I know, they don't care what language he speaks. Damn, have you seen Halifax play or you're just spewing crap ?!

And please, Barkov before Monahan for a top 3...

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11-13-2012, 04:41 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The last time the Habs tried to draft size in the first round, it was the 1990s.

1990, 12th overall, Turner Stevenson, 6'3"
1991, 17th overall, Brent Bilodeau, 6'4"
1992, 20th overall, David Wilkie, 6'3"
1993, 21 st overall, Saku Koivu, 5'10"
1994, 18th overall, Brad Brown, 6'3"
1995, 8th overall, Terry Ryan, 6'1"
1996, 18th overall, Matt Higgins, 6'2"
1997, 11th overall, Jason Ward, 6'2"
1998, 16th overall, Eric Chouinard, 6'2"

In the 1990s the Habs tried to draft size in the first round and you can see the result. There was one year, 1993, when they went for skill and not size, and they got a different result.

You want to pick BPA. Size is possibly the most overrated attribute on draft day and thus you end up with losses. You can get size on the UFA market, and in any case the Habs are not as small as they used to be.
You're wrong there. Terry Ryan was coming off a 50 goal, 110 point season In the WHL. He had incredible size and skill in Juniors, just didn't translate to the pro level.

After a successful season with the Kamloops Blazers of the WHL Wilkie was seen as one of the top upcoming defensive prospects for the 1992 NHL Entry Draft and was selected in the 1st round, 20th overall by the Montreal Canadiens. The following season Wilkie returned to the Blazers and made his international debut representing the U.S. in the 1993 World Junior Ice Hockey Championship

Stevenson was a 30 goal scorer in Juniors. And an All Star:
1991–92: West First All-Star Team (WHL)
1991–92: Memorial Cup All-Star Team (CHL)

Eric Choiunard clearly had some skill: After scoring 296 points in 180 games with the Quebec Remparts of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, he became a 1st-round draft choice (16th overall) by the Montreal Canadiens in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft

All of the guys drafted put up numbers and were all stars... They weren't just drafted for size. It's just a common misconception because none of them transferred their Junior success to the pro ranks. Probably says more about our lack of ability to develop young players than anything.

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11-13-2012, 04:42 PM
  #518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
I don't understand the obsession with small, weak forwards. Surely we've had enough of those over the past 25 years???

We need to get solid, good sized, talented forwards. Enough smurfs. Monahan, Lazar, Kerby Rychel, are all solid tough skilled players. MacKinnon would be an obvious choice... Erne, Barkov would be great as well.

Time to get bigger though, and I really like the thought of Monahan/Galchenyuk up
the middle.
Please dont tell me that you suggest selecting Lazar or Rychel before Drouin. I would take MacKinnon, Jones, Barkov, Monahan and Lindholm before Drouin. Maybe Shinkaruk. Erne, Lazar, Nichushkin and Burakovsky are also better than Rychel. Rychel is just bad.

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11-13-2012, 04:45 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
You're wrong there. Terry Ryan was coming off a 50 goal, 110 point season In the WHL. He had incredible size and skill in Juniors, just didn't translate to the pro level.

After a successful season with the Kamloops Blazers of the WHL Wilkie was seen as one of the top upcoming defensive prospects for the 1992 NHL Entry Draft and was selected in the 1st round, 20th overall by the Montreal Canadiens. The following season Wilkie returned to the Blazers and made his international debut representing the U.S. in the 1993 World Junior Ice Hockey Championship

Stevenson was a 30 goal scorer in Juniors. And an All Star:
1991–92: West First All-Star Team (WHL)
1991–92: Memorial Cup All-Star Team (CHL)

Eric Choiunard clearly had some skill: After scoring 296 points in 180 games with the Quebec Remparts of the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, he became a 1st-round draft choice (16th overall) by the Montreal Canadiens in the 1998 NHL Entry Draft

All of the guys drafted put up numbers and were all stars... They weren't just drafted for size. It's just a common misconception because none of them transferred their Junior success to the pro ranks. Probably says more about our lack of ability to develop young players than anything.
Then how did Koivu not fail as well? Did he not go through the same system that couldn't develop young players?

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11-13-2012, 04:46 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Both MacKinnon and Drouin are 5'11 and about 175-180lbs... your argumentation is flawed, Drouin is sure to be a top 10 pick this year, and has a chance to be top 5. Just look on the prospects board to see how fans from other teams see him, and as far as I know, they don't care what language he speaks. Damn, have you seen Halifax play or you're just spewing crap ?!

And please, Barkov before Monahan for a top 3...
I've watched a few Moose games. MacKinnon is light years ahead of Drouin in every department. Complete different level.... MacKinnon will likely go number one overall. If you watched the Moose you'd know MacKinnon is bigger than 5'11... Monahan before Barkov for me, but that's just my preference.

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11-13-2012, 04:53 PM
  #521
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Then how did Koivu not fail as well? Did he not go through the same system that couldn't develop young players?
If you'll recall he almost didn't make it... He kept missing parts of seasons with injuries. Besides not every prospect will fail, the law of averages dictates someone will make it... Koivu was an example of incredible talent and perseverance. One in a Million.

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11-13-2012, 04:57 PM
  #522
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If you'll recall he almost didn't make it... He kept missing parts of seasons with injuries. Besides not every prospect will fail, the law of averages dictates someone will make it... Koivu was an example of incredible talent and perseverance. One in a Million.
I don't recall very well, I was 10.

Here's what I recall.

When the Habs drafted Koivu, I think there was talk that the Habs were surprised he was available at #21, but teams always say that. This was the first draft I watched on TV I think.

He then played a year (or two?) in junior. It was said before the season started that he was the best player in the world not playing in the NHL. They don't say this for most prospects. I've never heard this for any other Habs prospect, maybe I'll hear it for Galchenyuk if he wins the OHL scoring race.

He then made the NHL. I don't remember his first season very well, but looking back he scored 45 points, not bad.

And subsequent to this, a career followed.

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11-13-2012, 05:01 PM
  #523
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Then how did Koivu not fail as well? Did he not go through the same system that couldn't develop young players?
Actually, he didn't. He stayed in TPS and became dominant there first. But that said, it's more complicated than just failing to develop players. There were some injury issues with some of those guys, and some of them lacked traits even while still being good prospects... like skating, or drive (Chouinard). It just doesn't always pan out, regardless of development quality. And sometimes does despite it. Etc. As an overall general trend, though, it did seem like the Habs lacked in the development department in that era. But it's better to leave as a fuzzy generalization than to try to argue it quantitatively or by specific cases, because it's not really a subject that we are well-equipped to tackle that way, there are simply too many variables and too many unknowns.

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11-13-2012, 06:12 PM
  #524
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You're wrong there. Terry Ryan was coming off a 50 goal, 110 point season In the WHL. He had incredible size and skill in Juniors, just didn't translate to the pro.
False, Ryan produced that year because he played on a line with Langkow who was absolutely lighting up the WHL that year.

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11-13-2012, 06:18 PM
  #525
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False, Ryan produced that year because he played on a line with Langkow who was absolutely lighting up the WHL that year.
And ripped it up subsequently, even after the first slate of injuries, in Red Deer... with... ? Anyway, Ryan was a very good prospect. Good prospects on the same team do tend to play together and help eachother out. Langkow was good, Ryan was good, the Habs wanted Doan, settled for Ryan, it didn't pan out for a variety of reasons, but no need to belittle Ryan's junior/prospect status. He was a stud at that stage. Many many such players ultimately failed to pan out, sad for us that Ryan was one, but he was worth the try.

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