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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VI: The "What Comes Before Square One?" Edition

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Old
11-13-2012, 02:54 PM
  #801
Rust Heisenberg
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Let's say the season start's the first week in December, hypothetically. Would Gaborik be healthy enough to play starting from game 1? How's Sauer doing? Will Hags be ready by then?

Gut feeling tells me that there will be a deal done by next Thur at the latest. What's the lineup if we start Dec 1?

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11-13-2012, 02:55 PM
  #802
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Sauer's a complete unknown last I heard. He may take another season off... if he ever comes back.

There was some positive news a couple months ago but he's still a ways away from returning.

Gaborik... I'd expect that if the season starts in December that he won't miss long at all, but I'm not positive.

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11-13-2012, 03:10 PM
  #803
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Healthy december 1st lineup if Gaborik is good to go?

I thought Hagelin had a serious injury. That makes our LW even weaker and perhaps forced Nash over to that side, regardless of whether Gaborik is healthy or not. We have a good first line, but we're a lot shallower than last year.

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11-13-2012, 03:18 PM
  #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Healthy december 1st lineup if Gaborik is good to go?

I thought Hagelin had a serious injury. That makes our LW even weaker and perhaps forced Nash over to that side, regardless of whether Gaborik is healthy or not. We have a good first line, but we're a lot shallower than last year.
Hagelin's shoulder injury doesn't require surgery so I don't think it's that serious.

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11-13-2012, 03:21 PM
  #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
Healthy december 1st lineup if Gaborik is good to go?

I thought Hagelin had a serious injury. That makes our LW even weaker and perhaps forced Nash over to that side, regardless of whether Gaborik is healthy or not. We have a good first line, but we're a lot shallower than last year.
eh it doesn't hurt us that bad. i'd prefer hags w/ richie and gaborik over cally w/stepan and nash, but top 6 is still just as strong. bottom 6 not so much, but it's not going to be game=breaking. nashy works just as well on both sides.

ie: kreider/richards/gaborik
nash/stepan/callahan

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11-13-2012, 03:23 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by mschmidt64 View Post
Sauer's a complete unknown last I heard. He may take another season off... if he ever comes back.

There was some positive news a couple months ago but he's still a ways away from returning.

Gaborik... I'd expect that if the season starts in December that he won't miss long at all, but I'm not positive.
He most definitely had another setback we just weren't told about.

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11-13-2012, 03:49 PM
  #807
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haven't heard any updates on gaborik but i think the hopeful timetable was mid-november so for a dec 1st start he would hopefully be ready or pretty close...

i think hagelin is expected to miss november so he too should be back or pretty close.

there have been no updates on sauer at all so no clue on him.

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Old
11-13-2012, 03:59 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Back to this? Yes, they have more risk. They pick franchise locations, when to expand, dictated the last cba and circumvented their rules. The players, without any real say, were along for the ride. Would profits be higher with better choices? Undoubtedly.

I still maintain that if owners want to pass off some of the consequences of their mismanagement, the players deserve a say in franchise relocation, expansion and a cut of expansion fees. I also push this point because not an owner would accept that. They want all the control and profit but hate the risk.

Further more, its tiring to see the owners' number run through filters but the players' number is seen one way. Its irrelevant at this point. The majority on both sides is comfortable with a compromise on the contract stuff and the agreement on the revenues. Bettman needs to relent.
Back to this? Yea, back to this so long as it doesnt have a credible response.

The players are supposed to have say now in key business decisions? How about they get some skin in the game before we even attempt to broach that subject? The people who have the say have it because they assume the risk and provide the capital.

I would also take any news reports you're hearing right now with a grain of salt. If the revenue split and make-whole issue is really solved, and Bettman is haggling over the age of free agency and contract stuff, then it really is his fault. But in reality, you only have the twitter musings of a few hack writers to go by on this.

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11-13-2012, 04:52 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
Is there another industry where labor has a negotiated split of the actual revenue made by the company thus guaranteeing substantial raises provided they perform?

Is there another industry where labor has a negotiated deal that has absolutely no path of recourse for management to re-coup wages (fire employee) regardless of how poorly they performs?

Is there another industry other than sports where a companies compeitiors are actually their partners and the sucess of one's company is reliant in part upon the relative success of thier "competitors"?

You cannot compare what is happening here to a normal labor disagreement.
Points 1 and 2 above are almost guarantee that whatever deal the players ultimately sign they will continue to be treated exponentially better than any other organized labor force in the world.
Well put. I'm on the side of organized labor in cases where their organization is necessary in order to counter abuse at the hands of management, but this isn't one of those cases. The PA talk about the last CBA like they were taken to the cleaners and yet their average salary had doubled under it and they maintained guaranteed contracts. This isn't the typical case of powerless individual workers being rolled over by management. The players have it very, very well and they would continue to have it very, very well if they gave in to the owners' demands, which I'm sure they won't completely when all is said and done.

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11-13-2012, 05:05 PM
  #810
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Gaborik should be close or ready to go if early December is the start up date.

Sauer. No. He is not expected to play this season. I asked someone who should know. As of a few weeks ago. It could change if he wakes up one morning and is completely symptom free. Not likely.

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11-13-2012, 05:19 PM
  #811
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NBA teams

Quote:
Team profitability is on the rise in the NBA, fueled by a projected $200 million in revenue sharing among the clubs this year.

Total league revenue for 2012-13 is expected to reach $5 billion, according to league estimates, up from about $4.2 billion for the lockout-shortened 2011-12 campaign. It is expected that 22 of the league’s 30 teams will make money this year, up from 18 clubs last season, which was the first year operating under the NBA’s new 10-year collective-bargaining agreement and with the installation of its new revenue-sharing system.

For the 2010-11 season, prior to the new CBA and revenue-sharing plan, eight teams were profitable.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/J...A-revenue.aspx

Fehr got Bettman up to $220M on revenue sharing.

Quote:
Last week was not a total waste of time in New York City, the two sides getting closer on one key element to the deal: revenue sharing among teams. The league pushed its total money on revenue sharing to $220 million, up from $150 million in the last CBA, and while the NHLPA might still want to modify how the program is run, the money has the two sides in the same ballpark
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-where-were-we

The Garden is kicking in $24M into NBA revenue sharing. Bottom of the article. It will be at least $24M in the new NHL program. The max was $14M in the 2005 CBA. I heard it was expected to add $10M the $14M max in the next CBA. Kyper said it cost the Rangers,Leafs,Flyers,Habs $10M more each. That was with the $200M number. Now its $220M. For all of the small market fans screaming about the big market teams. Ask them this. Who is their benefactor?

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Old
11-13-2012, 05:41 PM
  #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Gaborik should be close or ready to go if early December is the start up date.

Sauer. No. He is not expected to play this season. I asked someone who should know. As of a few weeks ago. It could change if he wakes up one morning and is completely symptom free. Not likely.
Just sad really. Hopefully Gilroy or Bickel will step up big time this year.

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Old
11-13-2012, 06:12 PM
  #813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris
More strong comments from Sidney Crosby today: "If it keeps going like this, everybody's going to lose."
Note to Sidney:

Errrr... Yes.

It takes two sides to tango.

Welcome to the nuclear winter.


Last edited by ltrangerfan: 11-13-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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11-13-2012, 07:07 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
These two points will be the death of me.

The players can distance themselves from the last CBA all they want. Fact is, they agreed to it.

Free agency is a competitive market place. The owners compete against each other to sign top players. This competition causes they owners to give long-term, big-money contracts with NMCs, that, yes, sometimes circumvent the CBA. This competition is also the thing keeps the owners from having a collusion charge filed on them.
So the owners collude unless they break the rules? Quite a standard. Someone should inform Sather, maybe he can finally build a contender if he starts cheating... oh, wait.

Funny how the owners and Bettman absolutely gloated after the last two CBAs. How they broke the union and finally got their deal. Same rhetoric after this one. Anyone that thinks the union had a hand in the last CBA is guilty of some creative interpretation. They were in tatters, their head ousted, their new leader in bed with the league and the membership split. Bettman wanted the 27/7.



Yeah... Recchi. These offers have just been getting worse and worse. We'll see how much he sold his soul for shortly after the lockout.

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11-13-2012, 08:04 PM
  #815
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
asked Bill Daly tonight what NHL needs to meet with PA again. Daly: "We're done making proposals. We'll see what they want to do." @SBJSBD

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Old
11-13-2012, 08:37 PM
  #816
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Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
@ChrisBottaNHL Don't disagree but Don Fehr tells NHLPA members that former players feel the 2004 lockout was worth it. Not necessarily true



Every former player who's spoken about it has clearly said that it was not worth it .

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11-13-2012, 09:01 PM
  #817
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One of the few positives to comes out of the lockout is witnessing the hilarity coming out of Canadian-based newscasts and twitter feeds without any hockey-related stuff.

One idiot said that the CFL is so exciting it makes the NFL look boring, while another turd was promoting a dog obstacle course competition in Calgary Saturday night.

Poor Canada.

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11-13-2012, 09:05 PM
  #818
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[QUOTE=Jabroni1994;55749545]Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
asked Bill Daly tonight what NHL needs to meet with PA again. Daly: "We're done making proposals. We'll see what they want to do." @SBJSBD[/QUOTE

Thank you for publishing the tweet.

I found this noteworthy, as well.

"And if union officials are waiting for the NHL to make another move to try to save the season, it's not going to happen. Daly said in an email the league isn't going to be tabling any new offers."


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20354211.html

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11-13-2012, 09:15 PM
  #819
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[QUOTE=ltrangerfan;55751303]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
asked Bill Daly tonight what NHL needs to meet with PA again. Daly: "We're done making proposals. We'll see what they want to do." @SBJSBD[/QUOTE

Thank you for publishing the tweet.

I found this noteworthy, as well.

"And if union officials are waiting for the NHL to make another move to try to save the season, it's not going to happen. Daly said in an email the league isn't going to be tabling any new offers."


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../20354211.html
I call BS on this. I don't buy it. If the players don't move, do you really think the NHL will cancel the season over contracting issues when they've already gotten the players to 50/50? Most of the owners would revolt. If it happens, bettman is a goner after the CBA is signed.

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11-13-2012, 09:27 PM
  #820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
One of the few positives to comes out of the lockout is witnessing the hilarity coming out of Canadian-based newscasts and twitter feeds without any hockey-related stuff.

One idiot said that the CFL is so exciting it makes the NFL look boring, while another turd was promoting a dog obstacle course competition in Calgary Saturday night.

Poor Canada.


I thought that thing where they sweep the ice with the rock coming down was their 2nd sport?

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:28 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
I call BS on this. I don't buy it. If the players don't move, do you really think the NHL will cancel the season over contracting issues when they've already gotten the players to 50/50? Most of the owners would revolt. If it happens, bettman is a goner after the CBA is signed.
It's not over contracting issues. The NHL is funding $210-$215 million in make whole under their proposal while the NHLPA is demanding $600 million. NHL wants the share between the two sides at 50/50 right now while the NHLPA is still stuck on delinked proposals where they're guaranteed their 1.883 billion plus 1.75 percent on top of that until revenues grow to hit 50/50. The only thing the two sides are close to an agreement or agree on is revenue sharing which the NHL proposed $220 million for in their last proposal.

LeBrun's column today does a good job of breaking everything down.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-where-were-we

Like most, I believe as soon as the PA accepts the make whole and 50/50 (which should cover the first two years in full before revenues grow to cover the rest in year 3), the NHL will bend on a lot of the contract issues and a deal will be struck. When this happens is anyones guess though.

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11-13-2012, 09:50 PM
  #822
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While Brandon Dubinsky broke his hand in the ECHL,Valtteri Filppula suffered what looks like a sprained MCL playing in Finland, according to Mlive.com’s Ansar Khan.

Filppula hurt his knee on Tuesday, so the severity of the injury isn’t clear yet. Khan reports that his Finnish team Jokerit is still waiting for MRI results.

A significant injury would be a blow to both the Detroit Red Wings and Filppula, if the lockout does end.


get this lockout over already... not good for Dubinsky.. he seems to be injury prone as of late..that is tough for the former Ranger.. still shocks me to say that.

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11-13-2012, 09:55 PM
  #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8theislanders View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland
@ChrisBottaNHL Don't disagree but Don Fehr tells NHLPA members that former players feel the 2004 lockout was worth it. Not necessarily true



Every former player who's spoken about it has clearly said that it was not worth it .
Beginning of the end.

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Old
11-13-2012, 09:58 PM
  #824
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How is it worth it to lose money because of missed games just to get an offer that still won't be what you want?

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Old
11-14-2012, 06:18 AM
  #825
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Quote:
Maybe today they say ok, move the age for UFA to 28, but players get arb rights after 3 yrs. There is a path to a deal -requires give & take
https://twitter.com/aschall21/status/268662334363406336

Twitter account of player agent Alec Schall. Pacioretty,JVR and Hagelin agent.

Only the players signing their ELC between 18-20 need 4 years to be arb eligible. The other players are arb eligible after their ELC expires. The NHL had proposed eliminating arbitration in the summer because its inflationary. The NHL is now proposing arbitration bring pushed back to 5 years. Would the NHL accept 3 years? It won't prevent the big 2nd contracts. I heard Kyper say the NHL wants the 3rd contract to be the big contract again. Its expensive to buy out those arbitration years. Free agency at 28. Now its 7 years accrued or 27 years old. 40 NHL games played makes up an accrued year.

Entry level contracts are 2 years. Arbitration begins after 3 years. 1 non-arb year.


Last edited by RangerBoy: 11-14-2012 at 06:23 AM.
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