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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Spector: Don't get greedy, Gary (IOW if you get 50-50, give on contract details)

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Old
11-13-2012, 05:10 PM
  #101
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by Model62 View Post
Joe Thornton is (or was) a superstar, no question, but there is (and was) a lot more to the Sharks' success on the ice than Big Joe. The goal tending depth (Nabokov + Kipursoff/Toskala?), for one, and all of it home grown.
Of course there's more to it, and it's not that San Jose didn't do a great job with their resources. But I would think that even Sharks fans understand how lucky they were to land a player like Thornton out of the clear blue. Without him, they have Pavelski as their #1 or they can try to overpay a Richards type UFA on the occasion that one is really open to the entire market. Either way, they aren't the same Cup-contending team on a budget without Thornton.



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The universal model is draft well, develop, keep your stars and supplement with the right FAs. That's how many of the top echelon teams have done it post the 04-05 lockout (Kings, Blues, Canucks, Penguins, Bruins) and it doesn't require a Kovalchuk blockbuster to do it.
I agree, and the NHL's attempt to extend FA ages is aimed at making that model more plausible for the Edmontons and Columbuses of the league. I think we'd almost all like to see a system where drafting and developing players is the path to being successful, but that's not what the players want (which is understandable).

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11-13-2012, 05:10 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by um View Post
how do you know mario's position in all of this?
He's an owner.

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Old
11-13-2012, 05:13 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You're moving goalposts, Hankie.


We have moved past the need for some economic changes. The PA accepted that on their own, and even got the league to up its RS and add a special targeted assistance fund.


What more is needed? I said addressing the variance issue should resolve anything and everything that all teams need right now to have a good footing. You don't need to restrict player rights. They should get some ability to control their own destinies above and beyond the league's required economic changes.
I don't think the NHL will even fight not changing ElC, arbitration and UFA once the PA finally gives up their quest for delinkage. That's still the main issue and the NHL is not going to keep budging on issues while Fehr keeps throwing up what is basically the same offer he three up 3 months ago. Once the PA actually gives the NHL linked 50%, then things will fall into place quickly and the NHL will give in on the contract rights issues, other than protected against front loaded contracts that circumvent the cap.

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11-13-2012, 05:18 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
The problem is that the NHL can not figure out a system that works on their own. They claimed that the last lockout was the answer to all financial problems and now the complaint is we are still losing money and there is too much money going towards players contracts.

50/50 split saves the owners the amount of money that is going out to players contracts. They got what they wanted. The main reason for the lock out!

They get their 7% HRR savings...but its not enough. Now lets go after a players contracting rights. Not in a compromising way but a take it or leave it way. Over 5 years that saves the owners over ONE BILLION dollars...not millions but over a BILLION.

Once a players share is set at a fixed percentage why does it matter how much one player gets compared to the next. If they want to stall the process of how quickly a young player cashes in then COMPROMISE. Holding a gun to the heads of the players is no way to solve a problem.

The players have given in on every level of this negotiation which the owners stand only to gain.

What on any level on this CBA negotiation have the owners done to lean in the players favor? If this is a partnership then where is the partnership from the owners? With this kind of negotiating you can be 100% sure that at the expiration of this CBA that there will be another lockout!!!!!!!!!!!
The PA hasn't agreed to 50-50. They've offered a de-linked salary cap with guaranteed raises that might get to 50-50 is certain growth assumptions are met.

I don't know how loudly this needs to be said, but its the truth.

It is not the contracting rights, despite what the PA is spinning right now, that is keeping a deal from being made

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11-13-2012, 05:26 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
The PA hasn't agreed to 50-50. They've offered a de-linked salary cap with guaranteed raises that might get to 50-50 is certain growth assumptions are met.

I don't know how loudly this needs to be said, but its the truth.

It is not the contracting rights, despite what the PA is spinning right now, that is keeping a deal from being made
Why do you believe the players must accept a 50-50 split?

There are no rules, this is a negotiation. The owners should try their best to get the most favorable deal overall. The players should do the same. I didn't think the owners 43% offer was insulting, and I think the PA should have made a linked offer at 75%.

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11-13-2012, 05:52 PM
  #106
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Meh, at this point the owners should just propose profit sharing ONLY, and take guaranteed contracts off the table.

Hey, Fehr wanted them to get creative.

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11-13-2012, 05:54 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
Why do you believe the players must accept a 50-50 split?

There are no rules, this is a negotiation. The owners should try their best to get the most favorable deal overall. The players should do the same. I didn't think the owners 43% offer was insulting, and I think the PA should have made a linked offer at 75%.
Because there will be no deal otherwise. It's as simple as that.

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11-13-2012, 05:59 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Meh, at this point the owners should just propose profit sharing ONLY, and take guaranteed contracts off the table.

Hey, Fehr wanted them to get creative.
The owners have been the mature ones, to go postal on the PA would be the wrong thing to do

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11-13-2012, 06:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Meh, at this point the owners should just propose profit sharing ONLY, and take guaranteed contracts off the table.

Hey, Fehr wanted them to get creative.
Take them off the table and players will just negotiate them back into play once contracts are up. Owners give up their left nut for NMCs..etc, they'd surely guarantee full contracts.

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11-13-2012, 06:14 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Because there will be no deal otherwise. It's as simple as that.
I'm not sure I agree. The league has not been tested, they have been on the offensive the entire time. Fehr and the PA have been pretty passive, just saying, "no."

I don't have a side in this, I'm just watching the show.

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11-13-2012, 06:22 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Missing the forest for the trees is right.

Ok, let's ASSUME that you're right here... they would be a better team with the one-two punch of Matt Carle and Dennis Wideman than with Ryan Suter. I mean, none of us likely believe that is true. But let's accept it anyway.

Let's also accept that the fans wouldn't be irate that a team in perfect position to court a Suter would instead intentionally settle for Carle/Wideman. Just assume that there is no backlash from this.

So, the Wild decide to pursue these two ~$5m defensemen. Well, here's the problem. Wideman and Carle ALREADY had those offers on the table without the Wild's involvement. So for Minnesota to make a winning offer, they have to outbid those contracts, and the total is now creeping upward.

So to get "two $5m defensemen" they really need to be looking at $4m defensemen, whose salaries they can inflate to equal $10m. "Hey, we didn't get Suter but check out our sick Souray/Kuba combo! Great seats are still available, call now for prices!"

Meanwhile Detroit picks up Suter at $9m and Wild fans are red in the face with management.

That is what you're recommending when you propose that teams ignore the constant upward salary pressure and pretend that they can just overpay even MORE mediocre UFAs to get the same results.



If Minn were to develop their own Suter via the draft or via a trade instead of the most expensive way to build a team then they wouldn't have to blame their financial troubles on contract costs which they brought on themselves. If you can afford it sure do it. Or if you have other players to surround him with like Detroit would have then it makes sense. Ryan Suters career high in points is 46 points...8 goals!!!!!!! 8 And that was playing 30min a night along side one of the best d-partners he could ever play with!!!!!! Not likely to get that many points playing with Gilbert!!!! Which having no one to pair him with actually decreases his value!!!


I do believe that Wideman/Carle/Gilbert is a much better top 3 D then Suter/Gilbert and who??? Prousser???

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11-13-2012, 06:40 PM
  #112
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as for this from your post.....Meanwhile Detroit picks up Suter at $9m and Wild fans are red in the face with management.


Why should Leopold spend his money on players that don't make financial and team sense...just because his fans are red in the face???

How are his fans gonna feel when they see they have $10M on Suter who can't put up the numbers because he has nobody to play with???

Giving into the fans are the exact reason a team gets off track . They stray from their own plan which makes sense for the team and then pay for years down the road trying to fix the mistake.



Look at Philly...they had a great team and tons of depth yet blow it up to chase an overpaid goalie in Bryz...moving Carter and Richards to do so.

NJ...signs Kovalchuk to $100M a player against all NJ principals of D-fence and TEAMwork...they lose Parise their captain and homegrown talent as a result.

TOR...trades the world for Kessel and then pay year after year for the mistake

on the other side

LA...takes its licking for a few years and develops and great team. Once it makes sense financially responsibly adds talent to win a championship.

CHI...same thing develops team through the draft and adds talent when it gives them a chance to win the cup.

BOS...same thing!


Have a plan and work the plan to perfection! Minnesota is not on the cusp of winning the cup or in the middle of a rebuild....now they have $15M locked into 2 players

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Old
11-13-2012, 07:07 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
If Minn were to develop their own Suter via the draft or via a trade instead of the most expensive way to build a team

Again, you're being unrealistic about competitive pressure. Everyone understands that drafting a great player is better than signing one as a UFA. That doesn't change the reality that most teams won't draft one, and no GM has enough job security to just sit around and hope that one comes down the pipe 10 years from now.


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I do believe that Wideman/Carle/Gilbert is a much better top 3 D then Suter/Gilbert and who??? Prousser???
Isn't Prousser on their bottom pairing?

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Why should Leopold spend his money on players that don't make financial and team sense...just because his fans are red in the face???
Because Minnesota's sellout streak is history after years of mediocrity. They are facing market forces and don't have an eternal mandate to screw around without consequences like the Leafs.

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BOS...same thing!
Yeah, remember when they "drafted" Chara and Savard to get out of the doldrums?

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Old
11-13-2012, 07:11 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
If Minn were to develop their own Suter via the draft or via a trade instead of the most expensive way to build a team then they wouldn't have to blame their financial troubles on contract costs which they brought on themselves. If you can afford it sure do it. Or if you have other players to surround him with like Detroit would have then it makes sense. Ryan Suters career high in points is 46 points...8 goals!!!!!!! 8 And that was playing 30min a night along side one of the best d-partners he could ever play with!!!!!! Not likely to get that many points playing with Gilbert!!!! Which having no one to pair him with actually decreases his value!!!


I do believe that Wideman/Carle/Gilbert is a much better top 3 D then Suter/Gilbert and who??? Prousser???
Yeah man, because Nashville developed Their own Suter and Weber through the draft and they weren't forced with ridiculous contracts... Oh wait.

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11-13-2012, 07:30 PM
  #115
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Yep.

But some GMs do have the "self control" to manage their payroll (regardless of what the rules are). (And/or still in this day and age have a budget from their ownership they work to get the most bang for the $$ out of.)

They often do it (thinking of Sharks as an example) by having planned long term based on current roster (AND prospects on the depth chart) -- 3-5 years (or more) out.

Since the Sharks last missed the playoffs (2003), I think everyone would say that they have not overpaid players (based on $$s/term when contract was signed). (Now, they did have some fall offs -- thinking post double sports hernia injury of Cheechoo -- but they have managed to trade away those pieces -- including Bell, Heatley.) They have never signed a player to a deal more than five seasons.

The Sharks also have some salary benchmarks based on role/experience they try to stay within. IOW, the first post-ELC deal is not a cap-max deal. High flyers have been getting their first post-ELC deal around $4m/year.

But I'd say it comes down to planning (on the organization side) and on the player side a willingness to stay with the organization and accept less than one might get via offer sheet. The latter is earned through respect and growing a reputation as a quality organization.
Aye, some GMs have mandated a self-imposed cap and managed to produce a worthwhile product. What I perceive the overall concern from the league is how consistent that philosophy remains. For every San Jose, there seems to be a Columbus. Slight exaggeration, I admit, but this is how I see the league operating. They are attempting to create a supposed ideal market. Frankly, despite my pro-owner stance. This is among the areas I disagree on. While parity is a somewhat worthwhile endeavor, it is not without its problems.

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I agree that it may not be worth the price tag fans are willing to pay. (I know I personally felt this was the case after the last 2-3 years in my team's roster efforts. It was rather boring, grinding kind of hockey, tbh.)
I have to admit, last season was relatively dull. I partly fault the disappointment that lingered for Canuck fans however, the team did adopt a similar grind style that I can hope only will not become the norm. Whether we can blame this on the cap era, parity or something else though, I cannot say.

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11-13-2012, 07:36 PM
  #116
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He's an owner.
That's like saying Ovechkin and Dwight King have the same opinion because they are both players. Solid logic there.

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11-13-2012, 08:22 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Yeah man, because Nashville developed Their own Suter and Weber through the draft and they weren't forced with ridiculous contracts... Oh wait.
And Nashville choose to sign one not both...they offered what made sense as a franchise and walked away from the other. Smart!!!

They did draft both Suter and Weber!!!


Weber's second contract was 3x 4.5M...Suter's was 4x $3.5M...Nashville is the model of how to manage premier talent. Chicago or LA via Keith/Doughty would have signed these guys to +$5M contracts after their ELS....Nashville got 3-4 more years out of these guys for less.

It can happen you just have to create an environment where players love it there and will play for less. Detroit does it every year...its about CULTURE!!!

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11-13-2012, 08:30 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
I'm not sure I agree. The league has not been tested, they have been on the offensive the entire time. Fehr and the PA have been pretty passive, just saying, "no."

I don't have a side in this, I'm just watching the show.
Because even Fehr knows that if they ask for more than 50% they'd have to justify why NHL players should be getting that high of a percentage when NBA, NFL and MLB players don't get that from their leagues, even though NBA, NFL, and MLB players earn far more revenue for their owners.

That's a debate the NHLPA doesn't want to touch. They know they have to go to 50-50. They've known it from the moment the NBA lockout ended.

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Old
11-13-2012, 08:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Yeah man, because Nashville developed Their own Suter and Weber through the draft and they weren't forced with ridiculous contracts... Oh wait.
6-7 years they kept 2 All-star D in their system for less than $5m

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11-13-2012, 08:38 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
And Nashville choose to sign one not both...they offered what made sense as a franchise and walked away from the other. Smart!!!

They did draft both Suter and Weber!!!


Weber's second contract was 3x 4.5M...Suter's was 4x $3.5M...Nashville is the model of how to manage premier talent. Chicago or LA via Keith/Doughty would have signed these guys to +$5M contracts after their ELS....Nashville got 3-4 more years out of these guys for less.

It can happen you just have to create an environment where players love it there and will play for less. Detroit does it every year...its about CULTURE!!!
No, your idea that teams can avoid those contracts just by 'drafting well' is misplaced. Yes, Nashville drafted both Weber and Suter, and just as they are both hitting their prime one leaves for a huge contract elsewhere and the other was offer sheeted forcing Nashville to match a ridiculous contract or lose their captain and franchise player. Yep, drafting them really protected them from having to offer up those contracts for good players.

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11-13-2012, 08:51 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
No, your idea that teams can avoid those contracts just by 'drafting well' is misplaced. Yes, Nashville drafted both Weber and Suter, and just as they are both hitting their prime one leaves for a huge contract elsewhere and the other was offer sheeted forcing Nashville to match a ridiculous contract or lose their captain and franchise player. Yep, drafting them really protected them from having to offer up those contracts for good players.

Hire a good GM then!!!

DP kept two of the best D in the league around for peanuts compared to any of his counterparts!!! It can be done!!!! Because it has been done in Nashville!!!!!!!!! 6-7 years of service for two of the best D in the league before hitting payday!!!

Because DP did it properly he was able to determine which of the two was more valuable. Weber who can play PP, PK, 5 on 5, 30 min, score 20 goals from 80 ft and captain a team...compared to a guy that can do all of the above but only score 8 goals max...take your pick!!!


It can be done...it just take a good GM who sticks to his guns, provides a great atmosphere to play and doesn't get rattled by the fans!!!!!

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11-13-2012, 08:53 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by echlfreak View Post
Hire a good GM then!!!

DP kept two of the best D in the league around for peanuts compared to any of his counterparts!!! It can be done!!!! Because it has been done in Nashville!!!!!!!!! 6-7 years of service for two of the best D in the league before hitting payday!!!

Because DP did it properly he was able to determine which of the two was more valuable. Weber who can play PP, PK, 5 on 5, 30 min, score 20 goals from 80 ft and captain a team...compared to a guy that can do all of the above but only score 8 goals max...take your pick!!!


It can be done...it just take a good GM who sticks to his guns, provides a great atmosphere to play and doesn't get rattled by the fans!!!!!
You're acting like this process didn't destabilize the entire Predators organization to the point that they made a cash call just to cover Weber's signing bonus.

Adding more !!!!!!!'s to every sentence doesn't change the fact that this is a completely unsustainable direction for the league.

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