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Edmonton + Philadelphia/Dallas

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:59 AM
  #76
Gritzky98
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Philly doesn't work on the trade for the future, wait & develop model.
Every year is the win now mode.

As you say, Yak will likely be better in the future (@ least offensively) but Couts is better now.
Therefore it's doubtful Homer would pull the trigger on that trade.
Couturier has never been better than Yakupov. Not in juniors, not in the WJC, not ever. If Yakupov was in the '11 draft he would have easily went either 1, or 2.

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11-13-2012, 04:29 PM
  #77
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Haven't read through the entire thread so I don't know if this has been said, but one of the main reasons Flyer fans wouldn't do this deal is because they have to face Crosby/Malkin/Sutter 6 times a year. Giroux and Yakupov would be incredible together but it would be helping one area and hurting another. The Flyers don't really need any more offense either.

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11-13-2012, 07:07 PM
  #78
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I love how his point total is stated like that's the best he's going to do despite him only being the league for 3 years. "Career year"? You say something like that for a 30 year old, not a young player getting better every year (Who hasn't even gotten #1 center minutes or PP time yet). Yet of course Yakupov has limitless potential.
But everyone use this on Gagner . He is the same age as Benn . Gets close to 50 a year and can get better . He fights ,mine you he loses ,but he does try . Getting better On the dot . Don't get me wrong i am not comparing the players . I am making the point all fan base do it with Gagner and you have to expect some oilers fan will do it back

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11-13-2012, 07:19 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone View Post
Yet they didn't miss a beat.

For those people with the draft pick argument, wasn't Couturier supposed to be battling with RNH for #1 before he got mono? Last I checked, he got better!
As an Oiler fan i wanted ST to draft Couturier 1st ,so did some Oiler fans. Having said that to date RNH looks to be the better choice ,but still too early to tell .
I know fellow Oiler fans will not like me posting this . But we need some size in our top 6 . If a trade was offer Couturier for Yak it would be a tough call . I think Yak is going to a very special player . However we need a big # 2 center . I would think long and hard about it . Again too close to call . It fills a need ,but we maybe be hating this trade for along time if it went down

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11-13-2012, 07:45 PM
  #80
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Throw Fistric in the Benn deal and I'll go fire up the paperwork!

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11-13-2012, 08:38 PM
  #81
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No thanks to either.

I'd seriously consider Yakupov + Horcoff for Benn+. Don't ask me what the + would be.

I'd love to have Hopkins and Benn fighting for the first line center position year after year. Hall + Benn on one line and Hopkins + Eberle on another would be tons of fun.

Hartikainen/MPS-Hopkins-Eberle
Hall-Benn-Hemsky

Easily the best top 6 since our hey days.
Still, I'd be just as happy to not make a deal.

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11-13-2012, 09:09 PM
  #82
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edited


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11-13-2012, 09:22 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gritzky98 View Post
If Yakupov was in the '11 draft he would have easily went either 1, or 2.
So he's better then RNH, Landeskog & Haberdeau?

BTW, when is 1 of those multiple 1/1 picks going to win a Calder Memorial Trophy? It might be Yakupov so you'd better keep him.


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11-13-2012, 09:53 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
Hall-Nuge-Eberle
Yakupov-Benn-Hemsky
or would you rather a Paajarvi-Benn-Yakupov 2nd line!???
I'm confused as to how you were able to steal a player from the Stars in that scenario.

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11-13-2012, 09:55 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
So he's better then RNH, Landeskog & Haberdeau?

BTW, when is 1 of those multiple 1/1 picks going to win a Calder Memorial Trophy? It might be Yakupov so you'd better keep him.

he will become better than Landeskog and Huberdeau, yes.

We will keep Yakupov and if he doesn't win the Calder it's because of Justin Schultz.

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11-13-2012, 09:57 PM
  #86
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I'm confused as to how you were able to steal a player from the Stars in that scenario.
Havent you heard, Gagner=Benn.

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11-13-2012, 10:00 PM
  #87
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I'm confused as to how you were able to steal a player from the Stars in that scenario.
Which line would you play Benn on? you probably want to say Benn on the 1st line but Ryan Nugent-Hopkins is the real deal.

Which wingers in Edmonton would you slot with Benn on the 2nd line?

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11-13-2012, 10:02 PM
  #88
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If first overall picks are always better than late round picks, then they really did the hall of fame all wrong.

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11-13-2012, 10:06 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
So he's better then RNH, Landeskog & Haberdeau?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
If first overall picks are always better than late round picks, then they really did the hall of fame all wrong.
When did somebody say they were always better? Whether you like it or not, draft position does matter when it comes to trade value. Do you think a disgruntled 22 year old with mediocre production (0.34 point per game pace through 137 games played, or 27 point pace over a season) who wants out of town gets David Rundblad and a 2nd round pick if he wasn't drafted 3rd overall? The fact is, the majority of 1st overall picks are better, more productive players (when talking about forwards obviously) than Benn is now by the time they're his age.


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11-13-2012, 10:29 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
Which line would you play Benn on? you probably want to say Benn on the 1st line but Ryan Nugent-Hopkins is the real deal.

Which wingers in Edmonton would you slot with Benn on the 2nd line?
I couldn't really tell you. You should watch the Texas Stars play and see who you think you'd slot in there around Jordie. That's the only Benn I could imagine available anytime before Hemsky retires or breaks. You'll be to happy know, Willie's (Desjardins) got JoBenn playing forward now and again. Your combos could fly if Jordie works on his footspeed?

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11-13-2012, 11:09 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
When did somebody say they were always better?
That's the basis of your entire argument, well besides KHL/DEL statistics

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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Whether you like it or not, draft position does matter when it comes to trade value.
I couldn't disagree more.

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11-14-2012, 12:33 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
Which line would you play Benn on? you probably want to say Benn on the 1st line but Ryan Nugent-Hopkins is the real deal.

Which wingers in Edmonton would you slot with Benn on the 2nd line?
You didn't address my concern. Your scenario had Yakupov and Benn on the same team, as well as Eberle, Hall, and RNH...

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11-14-2012, 01:51 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
That's the basis of your entire argument, well besides KHL/DEL statistics



I couldn't disagree more.
When two players have been drafted a year apart and are still under 20 years of age, unless one has made an unexpected impact in the nhl/khl, then yes, draft position does apply to trade value and you are completely wrong.

Players chosen 1st overall are typically high impact players, whether thats immediately, or a few years down the road. It's one thing to compare the player's value to their team, but it is hilarious how many people are comparing the players when it comes to overall trade value

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11-14-2012, 02:15 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
That's the basis of your entire argument, well besides KHL/DEL statistics



I couldn't disagree more.
I never said that 1st overall picks are always better than later round picks, I said that in recent history 1st overall picks (particularly forwards) have been consistently better than Benn is now at his age. And I backed that up with statistics. But please, continue to straw man if you can't come up with an actual argument.

And the value thing is not really about opinion, so you disagreeing is meaningless. It's pretty much a fact that a player's draft position can impact their value. Now, please don't decide to go the immature route and say, "Oh so [worse player who was drafted higher] is worth mroe than [better played who was drafted lower]?" because all I'm saying is it's definitely a factor, but not the be-all end-all. Do you honestly think Kyle Turris was valued to be worth David Rundblad and a 2nd round pick because of his production at the NHL level? Serious question, please, if you're so sure of yourself, actually dispute my points rather than just dodging them.

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11-14-2012, 03:22 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
I never said that 1st overall picks are always better than later round picks, I said that in recent history 1st overall picks (particularly forwards) have been consistently better than Benn is now at his age. And I backed that up with statistics. But please, continue to straw man if you can't come up with an actual argument.
Don't act like such a victim by pulling that straw man BS. You knew what you were implying. This thread is not about Benn vs recent first round picks, it's about Benn (and Couturier for that matter) vs Yakupov. By merely mentioning other first round picks and (correctly) identifying Yakupov as a member of that group, you are making one of two arguments:
  1. All first overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
  2. Some overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
Option one is an unpopular, but defensible position, though you probably wouldn't have much luck convincing the masses. Option two is a syllogistic fallacy, and it's apparent now that that's the argument you were attempting to use. You'll have to excuse me for giving you the benefit of the doubt and challenging your hockey beliefs and not your grasp of rudimentary logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
And the value thing is not really about opinion, so you disagreeing is meaningless. It's pretty much a fact that a player's draft position can impact their value. Now, please don't decide to go the immature route and say, "Oh so [worse player who was drafted higher] is worth mroe than [better played who was drafted lower]?" because all I'm saying is it's definitely a factor, but not the be-all end-all. Do you honestly think Kyle Turris was valued to be worth David Rundblad and a 2nd round pick because of his production at the NHL level? Serious question, please, if you're so sure of yourself, actually dispute my points rather than just dodging them.
"Pretty much a fact" is a funny way of saying "opinion." And how is it immature to provide a counter-example to an opinion falsely declared as fact? Although if I did what you say, then I would be guilty of straw man.

Anyway, I believe Kyle Turris held that kind of value because the Senators still thought he had at least some of the potential that earned him so much attention in his draft year. I think draft position affects trade value indirectly in that a player that is drafted high has a different development path than a player that is drafted low, and therefore develops into a different calibur of player, and for that reason has different trade value. Maybe if Turris were drafted in the 7th round, he wouldn't have been fast tracked to the AHL, and possibly been left to rot in the ECHL (or worse ). However, if he were drafted that low, that means he was a less effective player at that age, which would be the likely reason for any change in trade value. Of course, after the Turris trade, Senators fans raved about his play, so maybe he returned a good package because he's a good player. Insanity, I know.

That whole bit is kind of off topic, though, because I'm pretty sure you meant that draft position directly affects trade value, ie if a GM is on the fence about a trade, mentioning the draft position of any of the players involved will somehow tip the scales. Seems to me that if you were to tell Burke he should pull the trigger on Kessel because he's a 5th overall pick, he'd probably ignore you.

Let me put it this way, if I paid some team $20 million to draft me first overall, what kind of value could they get in return for me? With no information whatsoever besides my draft position, no video, no statistical history, no first hand accounts, no knowledge of our impressively illegal arrangement , would a team still blow a 7th round pick, one that could potentially turn into a useful player, on my rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoud View Post
When two players have been drafted a year apart and are still under 20 years of age, unless one has made an unexpected impact in the nhl/khl, then yes, draft position does apply to trade value and you are completely wrong.
I couldn't disagree more.


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Old
11-14-2012, 03:55 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Don't act like such a victim by pulling that straw man BS. You knew what you were implying. This thread is not about Benn vs recent first round picks, it's about Benn (and Couturier for that matter) vs Yakupov. By merely mentioning other first round picks and (correctly) identifying Yakupov as a member of that group, you are making one of two arguments:
  1. All first overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
  2. Some overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
That's a lot of words but I believe that the actual implication was that odds are Yakupov will be better than Benn. Based on the success of previous first overalls and the projections scouts have made, this is true (although clearly there are no certainties in projecting career paths of 18 year olds). This is not to mention that Yak was far better than Benn at the same age.

I say this despite the fact that I would seriously consider the trade for Benn as I really like him as a player.

Also, you're kidding yourself if you dispute the fact that draft position effects prospect value.

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11-14-2012, 04:36 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
Don't act like such a victim by pulling that straw man BS. You knew what you were implying. This thread is not about Benn vs recent first round picks, it's about Benn (and Couturier for that matter) vs Yakupov. By merely mentioning other first round picks and (correctly) identifying Yakupov as a member of that group, you are making one of two arguments:
  1. All first overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
  2. Some overall picks are better than Benn; Yakupov is a first overall pick; Yakupov is better than Benn.
Option one is an unpopular, but defensible position, though you probably wouldn't have much luck convincing the masses. Option two is a syllogistic fallacy, and it's apparent now that that's the argument you were attempting to use. You'll have to excuse me for giving you the benefit of the doubt and challenging your hockey beliefs and not your grasp of rudimentary logic.



"Pretty much a fact" is a funny way of saying "opinion." And how is it immature to provide a counter-example to an opinion falsely declared as fact? Although if I did what you say, then I would be guilty of straw man.

Anyway, I believe Kyle Turris held that kind of value because the Senators still thought he had at least some of the potential that earned him so much attention in his draft year. I think draft position affects trade value indirectly in that a player that is drafted high has a different development path than a player that is drafted low, and therefore develops into a different calibur of player, and for that reason has different trade value. Maybe if Turris were drafted in the 7th round, he wouldn't have been fast tracked to the AHL, and possibly been left to rot in the ECHL (or worse ). However, if he were drafted that low, that means he was a less effective player at that age, which would be the likely reason for any change in trade value. Of course, after the Turris trade, Senators fans raved about his play, so maybe he returned a good package because he's a good player. Insanity, I know.

That whole bit is kind of off topic, though, because I'm pretty sure you meant that draft position directly affects trade value, ie if a GM is on the fence about a trade, mentioning the draft position of any of the players involved will somehow tip the scales. Seems to me that if you were to tell Burke he should pull the trigger on Kessel because he's a 5th overall pick, he'd probably ignore you.

Let me put it this way, if I paid some team $20 million to draft me first overall, what kind of value could they get in return for me? With no information whatsoever besides my draft position, no video, no statistical history, no first hand accounts, no knowledge of our impressively illegal arrangement , would a team still blow a 7th round pick, one that could potentially turn into a useful player, on my rights?


I couldn't disagree more.
So what you're trying to say is that there is no correlation between draft position and trade value. Alrighty. So how is a prospect's value determined if he has never played an NHL game? (since you said KHL stats for Yakupov aren't good enough). And based on this logic, I'm sure when you see players traded for first and third round picks it confuses you, since a future first round pick is equivalent to a future third rounder, right?

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11-14-2012, 02:43 PM
  #98
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That's a lot of words but I believe that the actual implication was that odds are Yakupov will be better than Benn. Based on the success of previous first overalls and the projections scouts have made, this is true (although clearly there are no certainties in projecting career paths of 18 year olds). This is not to mention that Yak was far better than Benn at the same age.

I say this despite the fact that I would seriously consider the trade for Benn as I really like him as a player.

Also, you're kidding yourself if you dispute the fact that draft position effects prospect value.
This, I don't know why but hairylikebear seems to only be capable to deal in absolutes.

I'm not saying all earlier draft picks are better than all later draft picks, nor am I saying Yakupov is automatically the better player because of where he was drafted. What I am saying is that, every first overall forward picked in recent memory has been a better player than Benn is now at his age, and are typically on another level than Benn offensively, so the odds are that Yakupov will likely better. I'm sure Edmonton would at least give him a chance in the NHL before trading him for a player who is not on the level of your typical first overall pick forward. From 2001-2009 (2010 and 2011 are too recent to judge), 5 of the 7 forwards picked 1st overall are clearly better than Benn IMO (Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares), I don't think that's an unfair assessment. I'm giving Benn the benefit of the doubt here, saying that he could possibly end up better than Nash and Kane. I just think it would be crazy to give up a player who was drafted 1st overall, for a player who is typically not on the level of the forwards drafted that high in recent memory, without ever giving him the chance to prove himself in the NHL.

And I said it would be immature to provide a counter-example where a player picked later is worth more because I'm not saying drafted higher = automatically has more value, I'm saying that draft position is a factor in trade value. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. hairylikebear, why do only deal in absolutes? Why can you not just read what I post and take it at face value instead of trying to twist my words into something that I didn't say? It's really frustrating arguing with people like this, because they try to tell you what you're saying, and argue with that, rather than argue with what you actually say.

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11-14-2012, 04:30 PM
  #99
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I would still take Pat Kane (in the 07 draft) just as I would take Nail over Benn.

It is crazy how quickly Benn began to dominate after his draft though and although he would be a great add I would not bite at the price of Yak. The Oilers would probably be better off trading for a Zajac or Backes or going the UFA route.....they don't need a franchise center...if that is really where Benn is at....nor do they need wingers....they need a 2nd line center (if they drop Gagner)

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11-14-2012, 04:42 PM
  #100
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I would still take Pat Kane (in the 07 draft) just as I would take Nail over Benn.

It is crazy how quickly Benn began to dominate after his draft though and although he would be a great add I would not bite at the price of Yak. The Oilers would probably be better off trading for a Zajac or Backes or going the UFA route.....they don't need a franchise center...if that is really where Benn is at....nor do they need wingers....they need a 2nd line center (if they drop Gagner)
I'd take Kane over Benn too, I was just saying he could perhaps catch Kane if he improves. Whereas I can't even conceive an argument of Benn over Kovie, Ovie, Crosby, Stamkos or Tavares.

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