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Hockey At 9:35AM? Western Conference Finals Rematch Marlies @ Barons 11/13 9:35AM MDT

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11-13-2012, 10:07 PM
  #251
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This is the 3rd proseason for two of these players. The inexperience card doesn't really play when these players should be at a level well beyond this league. Part of the problem is we're raising these kids not to care about GA. Hall cares, I know that. But none of these guys have really learned how to play ownzone properly. or how to keep the puck to prevent spending so much time in ownzone. Once this line loses the puck they tend to be in trouble. They shouldn't be at this point. Especially when babysat by Schultz, the best D playing in this league for my money.

When this line starts respecting the puck, and respecting puck control, and not throwing it away blindly they might reduce their GA and running around struggles. A talented line like this should recognize what a significant problem its being for them even at this level whenever they give up the puck.
They are still awfully young although i do agree that they need to be better defensively.

As i said before, it's a bad idea to play all three together. I didn't like it last year either, i think a lot of folks here got enthralled with the kid line due to the offensive flashiness but the reality is that they were struggled as much defensively as they did well offensively plus they struggled
against big physical teams.
I don't see anything changing this season unless a physical element is added to the top 6. I don't care how skilled they will be with the addition of Yakupov and a healthy Hemsky, the same problems will still remain. Teams like St. Louis, L.A. and Phoenix will have a field day with this group.


.

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11-13-2012, 10:12 PM
  #252
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Linus Omark was better than a ppg player in the AHL and also a double digit plus player in his short time with OKC. Hell even our best +/- forward from last season in the NHL the One and only SS was a whopping -47 in his first 4 season playing a very sheltered role. If the kids are breaking even or better on most nights and lighting it up on the PP we should be happy considering their pro experience.

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11-13-2012, 10:14 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
They are still awfully young although i do agree that they need to be better defensively.

As i said before, it's a bad idea to play all three together. I didn't like it last year either, i think a lot of folks here got enthralled with the kid line due to the offensive flashiness but the reality is that they were struggled as much defensively as they did well offensively plus they struggled
against big physical teams.
I don't see anything changing this season unless a physical element is added to the top 6. I don't care how skilled they will be with the addition of Yakupov and a healthy Hemsky, the same problems will still remain. Teams like St. Louis, L.A. and Phoenix will have a field day with this group.


.
Teams that all have big, strong, elite level defensive 2nd line centers.
hmmmm

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11-13-2012, 10:14 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
They are still awfully young although i do agree that they need to be better defensively.

As i said before, it's a bad idea to play all three together. I didn't like it last year either, i think a lot of folks here got enthralled with the kid line due to the offensive flashiness but the reality is that they were struggled as much defensively as they did well offensively plus they struggled
against big physical teams.
I don't see anything changing this season unless a physical element is added to the top 6. I don't care how skilled they will be with the addition of Yakupov and a healthy Hemsky, the same problems will still remain. Teams like St. Louis, L.A. and Phoenix will have a field day with this group.


.
Yeah, agree, I'm not much of a fan of a kidline getting difficult assignments at the NHL level. They should be able to handle it here and the time is now to improve their game and see what they can do in allround play.

As far as Yakupov he's the strongest of the bunch imo and much better defensively then people seem to give him credit for. This is a more complete player. I've been very impressed by Yakupov from what I've seen. He also really understands the transition game and how to turn defence to offence. He's a great NZ player imo. An isolated view perhaps but I think people will really be surprised. This being a player that dominates all over the ice.

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11-13-2012, 10:22 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by nabob View Post
Teams that all have big, strong, elite level defensive 2nd line centers.
hmmmm
Oh boy, now you did it but yeah, it seems that you're picking up what i'm putting down.

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11-13-2012, 10:25 PM
  #256
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Yeah, agree, I'm not much of a fan of a kidline getting difficult assignments at the NHL level. They should be able to handle it here and the time is now to improve their game and see what they can do in allround play.

As far as Yakupov he's the strongest of the bunch imo and much better defensively then people seem to give him credit for. This is a more complete player. I've been very impressed by Yakupov from what I've seen. He also really understands the transition game and how to turn defence to offence. He's a great NZ player imo. An isolated view perhaps but I think people will really be surprised. This being a player that dominates all over the ice.
Yakupov might be the strongest physically but i've never see him pay too much to the defensive side. He reminds me of Bure who always use to float high in the defensive zone constantly looking for the breakout pass to head the other way without much care for taking a man. Obviously Bure is a helluva compliment for the kid but not for his defensive awareness. He will always need a strong defensive presence on his line moreso than RNH, Hall and Eberle IMO.

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11-13-2012, 10:30 PM
  #257
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I've been saying somewhere between drafting 8th-12th for some time. IMO we will take a step forward and a sizable one at that, but as long as guys like Horcoff lead the veteran contingent we are going nowhere.
if we play this year, yeah i could see somewhere around 20th-22nd overall... that seems to be a pretty good guess for where we would finish

if the entire season is lost and we don't play again until 2013-14, who knows where we'll end up in the standings that season

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11-13-2012, 10:33 PM
  #258
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One of the issues that doesn't get acknowledged enough is that the Worldclass kids should be holding their own which they are not. They just had another minus day as a line in the AHL. People look at their points and figure thats enough. But if two number one picks and a 72pt NHL player can't outscore at EV on the AHL level thats a huge problem to have.
Its not just about veteran support. Its about the supposed best players in the world acting like it all over the ice and properly learning their roles.

Time after time on the weekend set I noted our juggernaut line out on the ice being incapable of even controlling the puck or getting it out of their own end. They spent complete shifts without the puck. Again a huge problem.

My concern being these young star players don't understand, don't comprehend what to do with a lock or trap or NZ pressure whether it occurs at the AHL, or NHL level.

They better damn well figure it out quick. Or they won't develop as much as we expect.
This allstar line should be dominating 5 on 5 everytime they touch the puck. They rarely even control the puck unless its a man advantage. You can't live on that bread alone and you won't get far as a player if you do.

Great players are great 5 on 5. That hasn't been happening.

Additionally if separated the players are establishing absolutely nothing with other linemates. They pretty much required being put together and now the results of that are underwhelming. Our allstar line quickly opened the game by getting scored against not once, but twice, both EV goals. Thats not providing leadership, thats paving the way for losses and against vastly inferior players. They got owned twice by a line consisting of Will Acton, Nick Dechampes, and Paul Ranger. Household names for sure...
the best players in the world (minus freaks of nature like crosby) are pretty much treading water at 5v5 for the first few years... i don't expect them to be really good 5v5 players for at least another 2 seasons to be honest... maybe hall, cause he drives the play so much, but thats about it

it take a long time to be a 5v5 player, that's why pretty much all the best ones are 27+ years old

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11-13-2012, 10:36 PM
  #259
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What lofty expectations you seem to have for some of the worlds top picked players.

Around 100 AHL players have a better +/- then anybody on our topline. None of those players have two number one picks and a 72pt NHL player last year on that same line. no other line in the entire league even comes close to this rarified blue blood line. At least on paper.

These guys should be running something like +10numbers by now. They should be dominant.

These are the three of the highest ranked forwards in the league. All TOGETHER on one line. Lets be clear here too. Without Schultz these guys are likely minus players right now. Schultz has elevated their numbers appreciably.
i really don't see your point? what exactly were you expecting them to do? they are doing pretty much exactly what i thought they would do, maybe *slightly* less scoring, but we're talking a very small difference here...they were never going to light the league on fire at evens, everybody knew this... their bread and butter was going to be the PP, and it has been

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11-13-2012, 10:40 PM
  #260
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i really don't see your point? what exactly were you expecting them to do? they are doing pretty much exactly what i thought they would do, maybe *slightly* less scoring, but we're talking a very small difference here...they were never going to light the league on fire at evens, everybody knew this... their bread and butter was going to be the PP, and it has been
That's fine, but they've got to be able to score 5 on 5. The Oilers had an absolutely dynamite powerplay last year but were **** 5 on 5. Powerplays still are important, but they're not nearly as important as they used to be.

The final two months of the 11/12 season and the playoffs illustrated that fact. If you can't outplay your opponent 5 on 5 then you're going to lose, lose and lose some more.

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11-13-2012, 10:45 PM
  #261
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I'd give Nugent Hopkins a break.

His body still hasn't caught up to his game, he's still a boy for crying out loud.

Most of us didn't even expect him to play on the big squad last year. His game is tailored to the PP now, but it will change as he continues to grow into his body and gains strength.

Hall hasn't played in like eight months so kinda hard to blame him.

The other thing as much as people want to huff and puff about it -- Eberle, RNH, Hall, etc. aren't really OKC Barons.

They are young kids working the rust off their games waiting for the NHL lockout to end and trying not to get hurt in the process. I don't think they're dogging it, but it's kinda hard to get up for the AHL knowing you're not really there for any other reason than a lockout.

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11-13-2012, 10:46 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
That's fine, but they've got to be able to score 5 on 5. The Oilers had an absolutely dynamite powerplay last year but were **** 5 on 5. Powerplays still are important, but they're not nearly as important as they used to be.

The final two months of the 11/12 season and the playoffs illustrated that fact. If you can't outplay your opponent 5 on 5 then you're going to lose, lose and lose some more.
That why you need a better #2 C then SS. And why your dependable vets can't be named Horcoff, Barker and Khabibulin.

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11-13-2012, 10:49 PM
  #263
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We lost again... what is wrong with this team? I'm tired of asking this rhetorical question.

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11-13-2012, 11:19 PM
  #264
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Schultz, Eberle, RNH. 1,2,T4 in scoring.

Some people aren't pushing their weight

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11-13-2012, 11:21 PM
  #265
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Schultz, Eberle, RNH. 1,2,T4 in scoring.

Some people aren't pushing their weight
ya, and nuge sat one game. It could easily be 1,2,3. and poeple complain

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11-13-2012, 11:28 PM
  #266
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Eberle and RNH are putting up points but I haven't really been wow'd by them tbh.

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11-13-2012, 11:31 PM
  #267
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Tyler Pitlick 2pts in 12gms -3
Curtis Hamilton 1pt in 10gms -5
Colten Teubert 1pt in 13gms -2
Anton Lander 0pts in 9gms even
Alex Plante 0pts in 9gms -6

They should swap Hamilton for Cornet, Pitlick for Rajala, cut or trade Plante or send him to Stockton, find a replacement somewhere, anywhere.

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11-13-2012, 11:34 PM
  #268
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Eberle and RNH are putting up points but I haven't really been wow'd by them tbh.
i doubt they are giving 100% since the prospect of an NHL season is still there. You might see them heat up a little bit if the season is cancelled.

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11-13-2012, 11:48 PM
  #269
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Tyler Pitlick 2pts in 12gms -3
Curtis Hamilton 1pt in 10gms -5
Colten Teubert 1pt in 13gms -2
Anton Lander 0pts in 9gms even
Alex Plante 0pts in 9gms -6

They should swap Hamilton for Cornet, Pitlick for Rajala, cut or trade Plante or send him to Stockton, find a replacement somewhere, anywhere.
I agree. It's a little early yet but if the secondary fowards are still struggling two weeks from now I'd like to see an ECHL/AHL swap. Cornet still has a scoring touch (14 points in 11 games with Stockton).

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11-14-2012, 02:01 AM
  #270
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So, just to make sure Eberle was plus 4 and RNH plus 3 before todays game? Hehe, plus minus. What a hill.


To those saying that our young players should be just SOARING in plus/minus (a rather useless stat in isolation) I'll leave you with these "numbers" of star players in their respective leagues this year.

Evgeni Malkin + 2
Joe Thornton + 2
Rick Nash + 3
Alex Ovechkin + 1
Patrick Kane -1
Nicklas Backstrom - 1
Briere + 4 (even with 18 points in 8 games)
John Tavares -1
Tyler Seguin -2 (even with 23 points in 15 games)
Anze Kopitar +3
Jason Spezza - 4
...Sam Gagner +1 (in the SWISS league)

Basing how a player is doing during the lockout based on some arbitrary stat is silly. Proclaiming that said players should have a certain number of said silly stat (ex. plus 8 or higher) is silly. Better players in (some cases) worse leagues are getting the saaaame sort of plus/minus. To say that our young players should have a high plus/minus is going off a personal fallacy and is completely worthless.

To criticize their defensive play is valid.

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11-14-2012, 02:30 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
That's fine, but they've got to be able to score 5 on 5. The Oilers had an absolutely dynamite powerplay last year but were **** 5 on 5. Powerplays still are important, but they're not nearly as important as they used to be.

The final two months of the 11/12 season and the playoffs illustrated that fact. If you can't outplay your opponent 5 on 5 then you're going to lose, lose and lose some more.
In the meanwhile we need to draw more penalties to maximize our PP. A guy like Schultz will undoubtedly help our ES scoring at the next level. He's like a 4th forward out there and will take some defensive pressure off of guys like Hemsky and Gagner because Schultz always has to be accounted for by opposing defenses.

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Old
11-14-2012, 07:09 AM
  #272
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So, just to make sure Eberle was plus 4 and RNH plus 3 before todays game? Hehe, plus minus. What a hill.


To those saying that our young players should be just SOARING in plus/minus (a rather useless stat in isolation) I'll leave you with these "numbers" of star players in their respective leagues this year.

Evgeni Malkin + 2
Joe Thornton + 2
Rick Nash + 3
Alex Ovechkin + 1
Patrick Kane -1
Nicklas Backstrom - 1
Briere + 4 (even with 18 points in 8 games)
John Tavares -1
Tyler Seguin -2 (even with 23 points in 15 games)
Anze Kopitar +3
Jason Spezza - 4
...Sam Gagner +1 (in the SWISS league)

Basing how a player is doing during the lockout based on some arbitrary stat is silly. Proclaiming that said players should have a certain number of said silly stat (ex. plus 8 or higher) is silly. Better players in (some cases) worse leagues are getting the saaaame sort of plus/minus. To say that our young players should have a high plus/minus is going off a personal fallacy and is completely worthless.

To criticize their defensive play is valid.
Well of course that is what I'm doing.

+/- was merely mentioned and in the absence of other statistical information(AHL stats are limited) theres not a lot of numbers to go on. Also that theres no unit stats to go on. No toi stats to go on. What we can even mention in terms of numbers is very limited.

Which means the argument is more observational and I've already made several observations on where I think the line could bet better. Again puck possession, Working cycle, finding open ice, puck support, making simple plays to retain instead of forcing puck etc. The trouble for this line is once they turn the puck over they're often found running around the rest of the shift. This line has zero value right now when they don't have the puck. Some players play reasonably well without the puck. This not being the case yet with these young players. To establish commensurate value, and dominance, they need to first dominate puck possession, 5 on 5. PP don't count as much. It doesn't take elite players to retain puck possesion on a PP.

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11-14-2012, 07:19 AM
  #273
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i really don't see your point? what exactly were you expecting them to do? they are doing pretty much exactly what i thought they would do, maybe *slightly* less scoring, but we're talking a very small difference here...they were never going to light the league on fire at evens, everybody knew this... their bread and butter was going to be the PP, and it has been
Because at some point it needs to be much more than this. You don't draft successive number one picks in the world so they can cherry pick a specialist role on a PP and get limited results everywhere else. You draft these players to dominate in every situation, to be better than peers in every situation. To wit why they are number one drafts.

How long did it take Kane and Toews to gear up for a Stanley Cup party? With elite players expectations should increase tangentially. i.e. expect the best. Anything less is disappointing.

Sorry to mention the +/- seems like people aren't getting what I'm putting down. When you're a line composed of some of the best young players in the world you should play like the best in a lot of areas. Its not enough to put up pts primarily on the PP. You should outscore, and dominate in all areas of the ice.

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11-14-2012, 07:33 AM
  #274
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Because at some point it needs to be much more than this. You don't draft successive number one picks in the world so they can cherry pick a specialist role on a PP and get limited results everywhere else. You draft these players to dominate in every situation, to be better than peers in every situation. To wit why they are number one drafts.

How long did it take Kane and Toews to gear up for a Stanley Cup party? With elite players expectations should increase tangentially. i.e. expect the best. Anything less is disappointing.

Sorry to mention the +/- seems like people aren't getting what I'm putting down. When you're a line composed of some of the best young players in the world you should play like the best in a lot of areas. Its not enough to put up pts primarily on the PP. You should outscore, and dominate in all areas of the ice.
Again, these players are awfully young and have little veteran support to help them along. The team is almost solely dependent on them to produce offense, that's a lot of pressure for such young players.
Toews and Kane had great support throughout their lineup so it eased their transition into the league and allowed them to play their game and become effective players in all situations by their 2nd and 3rd seasons. You need to be patient with these guys, it's going to take more time for them to round out their games.

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11-14-2012, 07:41 AM
  #275
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Again, these players are awfully young and have little veteran support to help them along. The team is almost solely dependent on them to produce offense, that's a lot of pressure for such young players.
Toews and Kane had great support throughout their lineup so it eased their transition into the league and allowed them to play their game and become effective players in all situations by their 2nd and 3rd seasons. You need to be patient with these guys, it's going to take more time for them to round out their games.
Well, the reality is that Kane and Toews were front center on that club and took a lot of players that people thought were really good, but have been ordinary elsewhere, along for a ride. Toews reminded me most of Joe Sakic, while only being 22 or 23. Kane reminded me of an ahole, but not on the ice.

Toews and Kane dominated in every respect, throughout the playoffs and at a very young age. Great players making everybody around them, and a whole team, look better. Lets be frank here. Nothing happens in Chicago that doesn't intimately involve Toews and Kane.

That said we all know the Oilers need to get better as a team. But who takes the reigns. Toews and Kane took the reigns and never stopped. Took it all the way to the house.

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