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The Official Arena Thread Part 6

View Poll Results: On what day will city council vote to finalize a new arena for Edmonton's downtown?
Between now and Christmas 2012 8 7.41%
Between New Year's Day and the end of February 2013 30 27.78%
Between March and July, 2013 16 14.81%
Before the October 2013 civic election 14 12.96%
Not until 2014 4 3.70%
Not until 2015 3 2.78%
Not until 2016 1 0.93%
Not until 2017 6 5.56%
Never 26 24.07%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-12-2012, 10:20 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Panda Bear View Post
Re: property taxes

Edmonton has some of the lowest property taxes of any major city in Canada. Only Calgary and Vancouver paid less per $1000 of home evaluation. Our tax levy is far lower than other cities, and we miss out on any possible civic funding that would come from paying PST.

You're only complaining because you're used to being one of the few exception for taxation rates in Canada. Given all Edmonton's financial outlay courtesy of its citizenry, it's asinine to suggest that a growing city of our size could ever hold off on raising taxes. We're fortunate that we're as well managed as we are--the City of Edmonton Corporation is the one of the most efficiently managed municipal corporations in Canada.

For more information, just have a look at this document http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.realpac..._report_fi.pdf which collected its data from municipalities themselves.

As you were.
Thats a selective look at it and one source of information.

Just to clarify as well when laymen residential owners and taxpayers speak of "property tax" were talking about the tax to the city + the education amount. With the Education amount in Edmonton being typically high.

Look at this graph which gives an entirely different, and more inclusive, picture of expenses. http://www.chooselethbridge.ca/pdf/chart_living_2e.pdf

Remember I was talking about total residential homeowner expenses which are astronomically high here. One should also consider in this the nature of services one gets for their money. I happen to live in a city with substandard public transit. If I lived in Toronto I'd expect to pay higher property tax and i'd get more for my value.

Finally, we're also in a city where some essential services like for instance garbage pickup appear as utility levies right now as opposed to that cost being borne out of taxes. Each municipality has different rules about what constitutes civic services vs which services involve addtional levy.

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11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
  #227
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do you guys in canada use bonds to fund projects?

i know here in the states, a couple of sport stadiums are funded by the use of the bonds....where the taxes would pay off the bonds in the future....

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11-13-2012, 12:17 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Have you not paid attention to anything that has gone on in regards to Northlands over the last 4 years? Because then it would at least make sense as to why you're such a flag waver of theirs.

I pay attention. I think the time for Northlands to be involved with the arena in any real sense has been passed by.

I'm still curious what is so bad about Northlands outside of their insistence to be involved with the arena. Can you explain it to me?

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11-13-2012, 12:28 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by sawchuk1971 View Post
do you guys in canada use bonds to fund projects?

i know here in the states, a couple of sport stadiums are funded by the use of the bonds....where the taxes would pay off the bonds in the future....

We use Private-Public partnerships. The private entity builds and maintains the infrastucture and the public agree to pay a set amount over time for that. Similar to a bond in payback, but the private interest is involved in the nitty-gritty of project development and building.

Otherwise, I don't recall public projects being carved out of general government spending. ie the City borrows for what it wants to build. It does not mortgage a specific asset to build it.

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11-13-2012, 10:10 AM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panda Bear View Post
Re: property taxes

Edmonton has some of the lowest property taxes of any major city in Canada. Only Calgary and Vancouver paid less per $1000 of home evaluation. Our tax levy is far lower than other cities, and we miss out on any possible civic funding that would come from paying PST.

You're only complaining because you're used to being one of the few exception for taxation rates in Canada. Given all Edmonton's financial outlay courtesy of its citizenry, it's asinine to suggest that a growing city of our size could ever hold off on raising taxes. We're fortunate that we're as well managed as we are--the City of Edmonton Corporation is the one of the most efficiently managed municipal corporations in Canada.

For more information, just have a look at this document http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.realpac..._report_fi.pdf which collected its data from municipalities themselves.

As you were.
OMG...really!! You are in favour of more taxation...benifits of PST?? You are clearly not on board with 99.9% of the citizens anywhere...the 0.1% being politicians.

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11-13-2012, 12:52 PM
  #231
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I'd be in favour of a PST. The way I look at it we are ripping off future generations by selling off the family assets to pay our day to day bills. That is not responsible financial behaviour.

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11-13-2012, 01:01 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
I'd be in favour of a PST. The way I look at it we are ripping off future generations by selling off the family assets to pay our day to day bills. That is not responsible financial behaviour.
Good lord you're an optimist.

I would only believe in more taxes like the PST if

a) the politicians were financially competent. Funny how BC now no longer wants the HST. The tire tax in BC was imposed to "save the environment" - but what did they do with the monies generated by the tire tax? Put it into general revenue so the politicians could muck that up. How's the provincial coffers looking in Ontario?

b) the politicians weren't corrupt. Case in point: Quebec. Enough said.

Since a) and b) are extremely doubtful, I would never suggest more taxes because throwing money to incompetent and corrupt people will not solve anything.

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11-13-2012, 01:08 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Good lord you're an optimist.

I would only believe in more taxes like the PST if

a) the politicians were financially competent. Funny how BC now no longer wants the HST. The tire tax in BC was imposed to "save the environment" - but what did they do with the monies generated by the tire tax? Put it into general revenue so the politicians could muck that up. How's the provincial coffers looking in Ontario?

b) the politicians weren't corrupt. Case in point: Quebec. Enough said.

Since a) and b) are extremely doubtful, I would never suggest more taxes because throwing money to incompetent and corrupt people will not solve anything.
Well said.

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11-13-2012, 01:18 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
I'd be in favour of a PST. The way I look at it we are ripping off future generations by selling off the family assets to pay our day to day bills. That is not responsible financial behaviour.
The fiscal mismanagement that goes on in this country is astounding...and you would give them more. It is a bottomless money pit that will never be satisfied.

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11-13-2012, 03:58 PM
  #235
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I feel that we should be insisting that operating costs be paid for by taxes.

We should not be allowing politicians to get away with blowing billions of dollars of irreplaceable resource revenue on health, education, welfare and other basics to buy votes.

BTW, our fiscal management is among the best in the world, as evidenced by our lower debt (federally and the province of Alberta) and strong dollar. Still, it could be better.


Last edited by nye: 11-13-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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Old
11-13-2012, 04:29 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
I feel that we should be insisting that operating costs be paid for by taxes.

We should not be allowing politicians to get away with blowing billions of dollars of irreplaceable resource revenue on health, education, welfare and other basics to buy votes.

BTW, our fiscal management is among the best in the world, as evidenced by our lower debt (federally and the province of Alberta) and strong dollar. Still, it could be better.
I notice how often you use the word "should", which tells me exactly how optimistic your viewpoint is.

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11-13-2012, 11:36 PM
  #237
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Am I optimistic that politicians will react to what the electorate demands? Yes, because they do.

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11-13-2012, 11:45 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nye View Post
I feel that we should be insisting that operating costs be paid for by taxes.

We should not be allowing politicians to get away with blowing billions of dollars of irreplaceable resource revenue on health, education, welfare and other basics to buy votes.

BTW, our fiscal management is among the best in the world, as evidenced by our lower debt (federally and the province of Alberta) and strong dollar. Still, it could be better.
So you are saying corporate welfare should be a bigger priority than Health, Education and Social Programs?

You do realize that operational costs of the new building could be in the neighborhood of 20mill annually? And people laugh at Glendale.

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11-13-2012, 11:50 PM
  #239
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I did not say that.

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11-13-2012, 11:54 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
I did not say that.
You seemed to insinuate it.

You clearly did say you think taxpayers should be paying for the operational costs of the building, which is fine, as long as they get all the non-hockey revenue to off-set those costs.

Katz should have no problem with that arrangement seeing as how he was asking for a 6mill yearly subsidy to cover what he must feel would be a deficit.

If he does have a problem with it then he is clearly full of ****, which, if we look at the Northlands balance sheet it would seem that he clearly is.

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11-14-2012, 12:02 AM
  #241
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I did not clearly say any such thing. I said that taxes should cover what the province pays to run programs.

The province will not be running the building, or paying for it to be run.

I don't think that the City should pay for operation of the building and allow Katz to collect all the revenue. I do appreciate Katz's aversion to a 35 year deal where he has to pay all operational costs though. I was hoping they could come up with a compromise where the City would step up if times were bad and the building was losing money.

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11-14-2012, 12:08 AM
  #242
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Quote:
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I did not clearly say any such thing. I said that taxes should cover what the province pays to run programs.
Did you say this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nye View Post
I feel that we should be insisting that operating costs be paid for by taxes.
Quote:
The province will not be running the building, or paying for it to be run.
So why bring up Health, Education and Welfare when those are all under Provincial jurisdiction?

Quote:
I don't think that the City should pay for operation of the building and allow Katz to collect all the revenue. I do appreciate Katz's aversion to a 35 year deal where he has to pay all operational costs though. I was hoping they could come up with a compromise where the City would step up if times were bad and the building was losing money.
I dont see why some kind of agreement based on the above could not be worked out, but it would seem Katz was unwilling to even talk about anything other than the six mill yearly subsidy, so talks broke down, and somehow the city and/or northlands gets blamed.

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11-14-2012, 12:09 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
I did not clearly say any such thing. I said that taxes should cover what the province pays to run programs.

The province will not be running the building, or paying for it to be run.

I don't think that the City should pay for operation of the building and allow Katz to collect all the revenue. I do appreciate Katz's aversion to a 35 year deal where he has to pay all operational costs though. I was hoping they could come up with a compromise where the City would step up if times were bad and the building was losing money.
How bout when the times are good? Any chance City should get any of those revenues from the building? After all, they are basically paying 100% of the upfront cost

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11-14-2012, 12:12 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Did you say this?





So why bring up Health, Education and Welfare when those are all under Provincial jurisdiction?



I dont see why some kind of agreement based on the above could not be worked out, but it would seem Katz was unwilling to even talk about anything other than the six mill yearly subsidy, so talks broke down, and somehow the city and/or northlands gets blamed.
Ive still yet to hear any of the heinous acts that Northlands must have done by those who speak of them with such derision.

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11-14-2012, 12:13 AM
  #245
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Ive still yet to hear any of the heinous acts that Northlands must have done by those who speak of them with such derision.
They are so terrible, they cant be uttered.

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11-14-2012, 12:21 AM
  #246
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They are so terrible, they cant be uttered.
About the only thing I can figure out that if they exist or god forbid, participate, they will cut into Katz's profit margins.
I get why Katz doesnt want them involved, its money arguably out of his pocket, but when it comes to the pro Katz contingent, I really dont get why they care.

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11-14-2012, 12:32 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Did you say this?

So why bring up Health, Education and Welfare when those are all under Provincial jurisdiction?

I was referring to cost of operating provincial programmes like healthcare, education, welfare, etc.

I said it because the exchange was about the desirablity of a PST. I see it as desirable to help make sure that the current costs of running the province are paid for by taxes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybaroo View Post
How bout when the times are good? Any chance City should get any of those revenues from the building? After all, they are basically paying 100% of the upfront cost

I think the basis of the discussion is what an NHL team gets in other cities. Other cities give those sorts of deals.

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11-14-2012, 12:43 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by nye View Post
I was referring to cost of operating provincial programmes like healthcare, education, welfare, etc.

I said it because the exchange was about the desirablity of a PST. I see it as desirable to help make sure that the current costs of running the province are paid for by taxes.





I think the basis of the discussion is what an NHL team gets in other cities. Other cities give those sorts of deals.
Why is that? Not all cities are the same. We sit on a pool of Oil here, a unique econmic place in the world. We are hockey mad. To compare Edmonton to Winnipeg (who incidentally have to pay realty tax, their owner I believe actually paid 80% of the Arena, & the Arena is 3500 smaller) is about as legitimate as comparing Edmonton to Toronto.

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11-14-2012, 12:50 AM
  #249
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Quote:
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I was referring to cost of operating provincial programmes like healthcare, education, welfare, etc.

I said it because the exchange was about the desirablity of a PST. I see it as desirable to help make sure that the current costs of running the province are paid for by taxes.
On one hand you are complaining about wasteful spending on govt programs while at the same time you are advocating more/increased taxation.

It has been my experience and as others have expressed here that no matter what levels of revenue the govt gets, it almost always isnt enough. That has been the pattern over my lifetime. Ive also seen govt depts throw away gross amounts of product with the thought being that they needed to spend all of their budget, otherwise they will get less the following year.

There is incredible waste in some areas of govt, yet other areas are incredibly and borderline criminally underfunded. Not sure what your experience has been with extended care centers but let me tell you they DO NOT receive adequate funding. Not even close. Yet when the people who made the decisions as per funding these areas need them, they are well looked after in private facilities, because, well, the public facilities are disgusting and inadequate.

This is starting to tangent towards politics, but if you were to encourage a new pst to help fund programs, it would likely be the thin edge of the wedge and would only grow over time. Sadly the fixed income earner in this province has great challenges in paying for deregulated utilities, on top of ever increasing living expenses. I dont think yet another tax is fair to them and not having one is what sets us apart from the other provinces and is a big attraction for living here.

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11-14-2012, 01:10 AM
  #250
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