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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:43 AM
  #651
Barrie22
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Walsh really does like to stand behind the same rhetoric sayings eh? Cox asked him 5 times about a report about kelly and all he could say is the players are more united now then they ever been.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:47 AM
  #652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
In the debates on this board, it has been continually proposed that the owners are losing little during the lockout, due to the fact that the teams are toys or ego pieces. MLB owners, on the other hand, consider their teams to be primary sources of income.

Whether these assertions are true or not I can't say, but given the ability of the Pirates' owner to pocket the league RS proceeds while using an eyedropper to hand out salaries at the same time that Mr. Steinbrenner (RIP) was able to build the Yankee team into a billion dollar enterprise by business acumen and branding, I'd say that Fehr has something to refer to when talking to the NHL players.

I remember, during the pre-cap era, Brian Burke saying that it would take one phone call to move the Canucks - the situation was that fragile (apparently). Local media would rail on management for not signing such and such, and would have little regard to the economics of the sport - winning was everthing, and the owners' pockets were of little regard until they threatened to move the team.

The current BOG isn't willing to go through that era again, even with the Katz's of the world being the rule rather than the exception; they'll do a two year lockout without blinking. Some of them may not like propping up their poor cousins, but neither are their hobby teams the cogs which turns the wheel of their own business empires.
I buy the assertion that the teams can ride out a lockout, because they have. I'm not so sure there's no pain involved, though. I just think that sad sack franchises (especially with guaranteed TV income), lose less money when the payroll vs. gate revenue equation is taken out.

It's easy to see how someone like the Islanders does better without playing, considering the putrid gate + SMG taking all of their money from them in the first place.

As for the MLB thing, it's just a hard sell to me. MLB makes twice the revenue that NHL does with similar roster size. Yet I think the average salary in 2011 was like $3.1M for MLB and $2.4M for the NHL. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you halve MLB revenue that the NHL players actually make MORE than baseball players for the amount of money taken in. If the NHL became a $7B enterprise, they'd be getting paid a TON more than baseball players.

This is like sixth grade econ, nothing too complicated. If they can't figure this out, god help them.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:01 AM
  #653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
This is like sixth grade econ, nothing too complicated. If they can't figure this out, god help them.
God only follows the Cowboys - they even put a hole in the roof so He could watch them.

For the NHL lockout, it's the Devil who's in the details.

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11-14-2012, 01:14 AM
  #654
DyerMaker66
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
It's not called a raise, at least not in terms of what a raise means.
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&r...w&ved=0CB8QkQ4

Quote:
- 1.Lift or move to a higher position or level
- 8.Increase the amount, level, or strength of
- 1.An increase in salary
Please tell me how this is different from the above.

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11-14-2012, 01:23 AM
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&r...w&ved=0CB8QkQ4



Please tell me how this is different from the above.
The owners aren't increasing their salaries? That was too easy

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11-14-2012, 01:32 AM
  #656
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back to a stalemate I see.

I think Don Fehr's plan was to see how far the NHL would go on their offer, I think we've reached this point(with them only making offers.)

It's the PA's turn to respond or else I dont see the NHL making another move until december.(and really, looking at where we are, that move would not be worth waiting a month for.)

Like Daly said/implied, accept the HRR part(or counter-offer slightly more into it) such as linage etc. and then I believe the league will bend a bit on contracts(in fact I'd say they may drop the UFA raise, arbitration changes and add years to the length. Variation cannot come off the table.)

In fairness the NHL has bent alot and added a decent amount to the table without receiving an actual offer from the PA(delinkage is never going to be accepted.) Don fehr has done a decent job of getting the NHL to come up a bit on their offer, but really What is the plan going forward?

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11-14-2012, 01:36 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Alan Walsh and Damien Cox are going at it hammer and tongs over Recchi's comments, Paul Kelly etc.Highly entertaining.
Cox may be a jerk, but he's not to be trifled with on twitter it seems. Walsh was pretty much owned.

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11-14-2012, 01:44 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
The owners aren't increasing their salaries? That was too easy
So that money goes nowhere? Hell the NHL should've just kept the Thrasher's in Atlanta if that's the case: Money's going to and from no place at all.

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11-14-2012, 01:50 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Cox may be a jerk, but he's not to be trifled with on twitter it seems. Walsh was pretty much owned.
Yeah, I am no Cox fan but he absolutely embarrassed Walsh there, particularly when it became clear that Walsh was taking time to come up with an answer and Cox just kept hitting him with taunts.

Not a very professional moment, but Walsh's BS was exposed and that's what Cox was going for. I wonder how many Twitter-addicted players watched that play out?

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:54 AM
  #660
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
So that money goes nowhere? Hell the NHL should've just kept the Thrasher's in Atlanta if that's the case: Money's going to and from no place at all.
The money probably goes to paying outstanding debts as well as other expenses, and not their pockets, unless the team is lucky enough to make money. At that point, it would be distributed amongst the owners (and likely many other employees) as bonus money, and not as an increase in their salary. Do you seriously not understand this?

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11-14-2012, 02:03 AM
  #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
The money probably goes to paying outstanding debts as well as other expenses, and not their pockets, unless the team is lucky enough to make money.


Quote:
At that point, it would be distributed amongst the owners (and likely many other employees) as bonus money, and not as an increase in their salary. Do you seriously not understand this?
Wait: Bonuses don't count as salary? Quick: Someone call the NHL and let them know that the bonus money Crosby earned in his first year wasn't part of his salary.

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11-14-2012, 02:06 AM
  #662
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Let's all cry for the poor players who were only offered an average of $2.2M per year, luxury travel and hotels and a generous per diem... This bleeding is unbearable!!!
Exactly. They are ridiculous.

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:11 AM
  #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post




Wait: Bonuses don't count as salary? Quick: Someone call the NHL and let them know that the bonus money Crosby earned in his first year wasn't part of his salary.
Bonuses simply don't count as salary. Honestly. He's not messing with you.

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11-14-2012, 02:30 AM
  #664
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Originally Posted by GoingGoingGagner View Post
Bonuses simply don't count as salary. Honestly. He's not messing with you.
Then why do they count against the salary cap?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26366

Quote:
A Club's payroll will include all salaries, signing bonuses and performance bonuses paid to players

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11-14-2012, 02:34 AM
  #665
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Then why do they count against the salary cap?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26366
Notice how they are mentioned separately.

They count because then rich teams would just give huge bonuses, and screw up the cap system. They are given out and treated differently.

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Old
11-14-2012, 03:12 AM
  #666
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Thank you Alex Anthopolous for taking my mind off the lockout entirely for one night. Absolutely stoked and could care less about the CBA talks right now.

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11-14-2012, 04:00 AM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
asked Bill Daly tonight what NHL needs to meet with PA again. Daly: "We're done making proposals. We'll see what they want to do." @SBJSBD
Isn't this actually exactly what the 'negotiations' need?

Since the NHL have been offering more with each of their proposal, Fehr has a valid reason to tell the players to hold out, because there is going to be a better offer on the table from the NHL with their next proposal.

The NHLPA have countered every time with "no, it is not acceptable". And then wait for the NHL to come up with a new and better proposal.

I think it is best for the NHL to turn the tables around. Wait for the NHLPA to come up with a new better proposal and then to say "no, it is not acceptable". And then wait for the NHLPA to come up with a new and better proposal.

This hopefully sends a signal to the players that there is not going to be a better offer from the NHL and they put pressure on Fehr to make a deal.

Ofcourse it could lead to a season cancellation, but it is up to the players if they want to take that risk. Either way, the players have to live with their own decision.

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11-14-2012, 04:21 AM
  #668
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It would be dumb for the league to bash heads than to try and spark something.

Same goes with the PA but i do think December will be wiped and the PA will see if they can squeeze any more out of the owners before making the final decision whether to sit a year or not.

Preferably, i'd like to hear reports S.Fehr/Daly exchanging things away from the public eye that spark a new set of talks to try and get hockey going the start of December but that's not looking too promising right now. Hardline owners may be digging in their heels.

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11-14-2012, 04:52 AM
  #669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post




Wait: Bonuses don't count as salary? Quick: Someone call the NHL and let them know that the bonus money Crosby earned in his first year wasn't part of his salary.
Also, why would it be funny that they'd pay down debt and/or other expenses, as that would both diminish fiscal loses and also increase franchise value.

The NHL's definition of the salary cap does not define what a salary is in the real world. Also, a bonus isn't considered a raise, which is generally considered an annual and regular thing, instead being a relatively random occurrence.

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11-14-2012, 07:17 AM
  #670
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When owners accrue 10/20 million in losses over 3/5 seasons, where does this money come from? right...the owners pocket.

What do the players lose when a team is in a negative profit ratio? Right...nothing.

It sure was fun collecting those paychecks at the owners expense, but they're billionaires, so they can afford it, but.....it's a two way street, these guys are multi millionaires and they can afford a bit of trimming off the top as well.

These top paid players(who are really driving the their side) financial sufferings are nothing compared to what the owners have lost over those spans.

The players have every right to fight for their money, but I see as money overpaid to most for a long time. They will never have my backing. Please don't compare yourselves to the average Joe. Neither side is like us.

I revel in the thought of you players pissing away millions to prove a point, the average Joe would have taken their trimmings and moved forward or changed jobs, cutting their losses to a minimum. Just doing this say's you can afford it (losing an entire seasons salary, and most can.

Would you do two, players? I would die laughing if you went that far, but still, most of you can still live off of what you've amassed. At this point you just might feel what the owners feel like losing money each season.

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11-14-2012, 07:23 AM
  #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
It would be dumb for the league to bash heads than to try and spark something.

Same goes with the PA but i do think December will be wiped and the PA will see if they can squeeze any more out of the owners before making the final decision whether to sit a year or not.

Preferably, i'd like to hear reports S.Fehr/Daly exchanging things away from the public eye that spark a new set of talks to try and get hockey going the start of December but that's not looking too promising right now. Hardline owners may be digging in their heels.
Nah, players just are not budging one bit. Maybe if the PA submitted something different from the same old tired ****ing offer they've been sending since September.

but the players want to play!!!!

they are so pathetic, so so pathetic.


Last edited by Fire Sather: 11-14-2012 at 07:38 AM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 07:25 AM
  #672
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Cox may be a jerk, but he's not to be trifled with on twitter it seems. Walsh was pretty much owned.
Walsh needs to be brought down a peg, but I feel dirty that Cox was the one to do it.

It's like watching your ex-girlfriend get dumped by the guy who picked on you in middle school. Really hard to pick sides in that one...

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11-14-2012, 07:46 AM
  #673
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I'll bet yeah...If they lose a season a much higher % of teams will survive than current hockey careers. Any takers?

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Old
11-14-2012, 08:54 AM
  #674
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Time for the PA to step up.
yeah right...

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Old
11-14-2012, 08:54 AM
  #675
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Taking a larger slice of a larger pie doesn't mean you're getting more money

/Bettman economics
Maybe you should brush up on your own economics. The owners are asking for a fixed percentage based against revenue. If the league revenues drop, what happens to the owners share? It also drops in real dollars (is a system where an increased share still runs you the risk of losing real dollars what you call a raise?). Having a larger piece of the pie doesn't mean that you are making more in real dollars if your revenue is decreasing.

At 43%, the owners received 1.42B of the 3.3B of HRR. If total HRR drops from 3.3B to 2.8B (it would probably be even less than that considering a shortened season or possible fan backlash whenever the season restarts), the owners share at 50% becomes 1.4B. They lose 200M at 50% that they would have had at 43% had growth remained steady.

The players are asking for FIXED RAISES independent of revenue earned. THAT is a raise that guarantees MORE real dollars to the players.

I guess the real problem here is that you've been taking Fehr mathematics.


Last edited by Ari91: 11-14-2012 at 08:59 AM.
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