His cocky attitude, the guy has had multiple fights with teammates. And i wouldn't doubt if many others on his team have wanted to, most men steer clear of fighting. The ones that fought him are only the ones that do fight.
Listening to him talk, you can see why sometimes. Hes your typical loudmouthed arrogant little *****.
Though i wouldn't be against him on our team, he's not a big cancer or anything, just somebody that i can see getting under peoples skin quite often and maybe not fit in quite well. Not every player needs to fit in to win.
Could definitely see him maybe clashing with the likes of the clique that is bieksa/kesler/burrows who kinda grew together
Mitchell had issues with Raymond and Kesler and he wasn't kept, i wonder if he had never had any issues with anyone ever, if the GM would have given him another chance after the concussion
i think coaches/gms like a group that fits together nicely, especially ours. maybe why they continue to give raymond chances. personality things we dont see behind closed doors (how well they get along with teammates/coaches)
Last edited by pseudonymous01: 11-14-2012 at 01:28 AM.
Except the thing people commonly forget is that Canucks wanted Mitchell to stay and made him an offer but he chose LA over us because it was a multi-year deal with lots of salary. A guy coming off a concussion has to take that deal.
I would take Subban on this team any day. That's the kind of guy you need sometimes - he plays hard all the time. Some Canucks could learn a thing or to from him.
Yes, I get he has an attitude, but often times I think this team doesn't have enough "attitude". They could stand to add a little more.
I wouldn't be too concerned with pairing Edler on the right next to Garrison. Edler is primarily used as the offensive defenseman, and playing on the right is often a conducive environment for LH PMD's. I would be far more worried playing the defensive defenseman in a position he's not comfortable in than the offensive guy. Hopefully Edler can take on an Ehrhoff-type role, except with added physicality and stronger defensive play.
I tend to agree this might be an option. We know Garrison is an effective defensive d-man. While Edler on the right side might normally be an adventure, could a steady defensive partner allow him to play an offensive role on his off side, similar to how Hamhuis allows Bieksa to take more risks?
Except the thing people commonly forget is that Canucks wanted Mitchell to stay and made him an offer but he chose LA over us because it was a multi-year deal with lots of salary. A guy coming off a concussion has to take that deal.
You dont think the management could have offered him more than a 1 year deal?
You dont think the management could have offered him more than a 1 year deal?
Considering he was coming off a concussion, wasn't that young and the acquisition of Dan Hamhuis, I'm not sure how willing they were to offer him more than one year. I know they didn't though.
Considering he was coming off a concussion, wasn't that young and the acquisition of Dan Hamhuis, I'm not sure how willing they were to offer him more than one year. I know they didn't though.
With how they judge concussions nowadays, everybody will have a concussion in their career. Im not entirely sure you let players walk because of one. Especially not one who was your most solid D. If it takes another year on a contract to keep that asset, you do it. Just my opinion though. And I believe it would have been if they thought extremely high of him as a person and he was a big part of the core
Silly thing to get into because nobody really knows, i just have a feeling that if he was an integral part of the core and got along with everybody, he would have been kept
Ok, after thinking on this some more, I'd like to share my latest thoughts on a TO trade:
I'm guessing 4 Pieces come back from TO, and two pieces are going there. Part of this is derived from the fact that Gardiner will _not_ be available, and partly due to what Gillis will be looking for. So here's what I think the trade will be (not what I want it to be, but what I think is going to happen):
TO pieces:
- The 1st rounder (Unprotected): This is the main asset. When Gillis moves off Gardiner, and he will, he will leave no room to relinquish the 1st. One piece goes, not both.
- Matt Frattin: Just seems like a natural fit (as a "now" player) for this team and leaves TO with Kulemin, the far better player. They also have Ashton coming up to challenge for the same spot. Not a huge fan, but as the 4th piece, fine.
- Joe Colborne: The hope of getting a Bjugstad-like player has Colborne as a prime target IMO. Gillis wants this type of player. JC may fail miserably here, but what he _could_ represent is too enticing to pass up for Gillis. And he adds value to the deal for Burke. This also eliminates Bozak IMO, as they both would be challenging for that 3C position this year (along with Schroeder). Which also works for TO. They move a superfluous piece without changing their 1C position.
- Stuart Percy: Long-term right-shot D depth. Note, it has to be long-term. Right now, the D (NHL roster) has depth. Likewise, the AHL has Connauten and Sauve challenging for spots very soon. And so, Gillis won't want to be pushed into changing the "graduation rate" by getting a prospect closer to making it. He can afford to wait. It's why I think this eliminates Blacker and/or Holzer for me. Essentially, Percy is the positional "replacement" for Gardiner IMO. Edit: I really like this player, despite the low offensive upside, and I hope Gillis does too.
VAN pieces:
- Luongo: The man, the legend, the saviour of TO.
- Kellen Tochkin - Simply there to move a contract. Since Percy does not yet count against TO's contract limit, Tochkin evens up the two coming in with two going out. Edit: Could be Sauve too, just to add more value going back.
Summary: There you have it. TO keeps their best prospect (Kadri), their 1C (Bozak) and their current top6 RW (Kulemin). While they move secondary and tertiary pieces. The only affect on their current roster is Frattin. For VAN, Colborne and Frattin are the "now" pieces of the deal, while they can afford to wait on the future assets.
Agree/Disagree/Other?
Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-14-2012 at 03:31 AM.
The RW spot we have available is on the 2nd line so how is he the natural fit and 'now' help?
"Now help" because he has an NHL pedigree, and is a more mature prospect/young player. So there is a sample there. Gillis can draw on it when evaluating what type of talent Frattin is... and what he may become. Until then, he holds his own on the NHL roster as a depth RW option.
He's a natural fit because he increases this roster's RW depth, and is the type of player Gillis is after: Is of average size, or a shade over, but plays big. He fits the mold. Granted, he's not the legit top6er this team needs, but having him here provides AV yet another option to roll him in the top6 if need be.
Basically, I don't think this team will get a legit top6er (many don't even include Kulemin in that class) without sacrificing other parts of the deal. This is why Frattin might be a better option because it allows them to keep stronger future assets in the package, while still holding out hope Frattin will close the gap with further development.
"Now help" because he has an NHL pedigree, and is a more mature prospect/young player. So there is a sample there. Gillis can draw on it when evaluating what type of talent Frattin is... and what he may become. Until then, he holds his own on the NHL roster as a depth RW option.
He's a natural fit because he increases this roster's RW depth, and is the type of player Gillis is after: Is of average size, or a shade over, but plays big. He fits the mold. Granted, he's not the legit top6er this team needs, but having him here provides AV yet another option to roll him in the top6 if need be.
Basically, I don't think this team will get a legit top6er (many don't even include Kulemin in that class) without sacrificing other parts of the deal. This is why Frattin might be a better option because it allows them to keep stronger future assets in the package, while still holding out hope Frattin will close the gap with further development.
Well i dont think we're really that short on mid level RW's. Kassian was able to play on the line many times last season and with that experience, plus another year in the AHL playing good minutes, i think he'll be able to play on that line and I rather him grow in that spot than go with another mid level RW like Raymond.
I dont know, We really aren't short of options that we can test in spots, we're lacking players who we can leave in that spot
Well not really because I do think Kassian will fill that spot unless we get a top level 2nd liner
If we're not getting a good second liner, I rather get prospects and picks. Not ones that are ready to sorta play now and be fringe players on the team.
Well i dont think we're really that short on mid level RW's. Kassian was able to play on the line many times last season and with that experience, plus another year in the AHL playing good minutes, i think he'll be able to play on that line and I rather him grow in that spot than go with another mid level RW like Raymond.
I dont know, We really aren't short of options that we can test in spots, we're lacking players who we can leave in that spot
Well not really because I do think Kassian will fill that spot unless we get a top level 2nd liner
If we're not getting a good second liner, I rather get prospects and picks. Not ones that are ready to sorta play now and be fringe players on the team.
So instead of Frattin you advocate another prospect? I'm not opposed to the idea, but Colborne is too risky to be relied upon as an NHL regular IMO. He will have to be tried, but I don't know if he will stick. Therefore, I'm thinking Gillis requests a more established roster player come along with him. That's Frattin.
I more or less agree with your take on mid-level RWs, but is the package I proposed not in fact prospect + pick based? Frattin is the only "fringe" player there, and the Canucks need something "roster capable" coming back. He is that piece right now. The more future pieces are Percy and the 1st, with Colborne being the wildcard.
Kassian taking that 2nd line RW spot is ideal. Frattin is another shot by Gillis at putting a RW there. Let them both compete and see what happens. Odds are Kassian wins out, but then Frattin isn't exactly averse to the bottom6 game either, so it won't be a total loss.
So instead of Frattin you advocate another prospect? I'm not opposed to the idea, but Colborne is too risky to be relied upon as an NHL regular IMO. He will have to be tried, but I don't know if he will stick. Therefore, I'm thinking Gillis requests a more established roster player come along with him. That's Frattin.
I more or less agree with your take on mid-level RWs, but is the package I proposed not in fact prospect + pick based? Frattin is the only "fringe" player there, and the Canucks need something "roster capable" coming back. He is that piece right now. The more future pieces are Percy and the 1st, with Colborne being the wildcard.
Kassian taking that 2nd line RW spot is ideal. Frattin is another shot by Gillis at putting a RW there. Let them both compete and see what happens. Odds are Kassian wins out, but then Frattin isn't exactly averse to the bottom6 game either, so it won't be a total loss.
Yeah but we already have raymond playing on the bottom 6 who is more skilled right now and can fill in the top 6 better than Frattin would I believe. I think Raymonds speed helps kesler alot. Even though sometimes it doesn't look like it.
I dont know , just wouldn't be an ideal spot for a player like Frattin to flourish.
To be honest, i dont know too much about their prospects. I want to say i'd rather choose kadri because he could put in another year on our AHL team and he can get a shot when there is room. But to be honest, his strength makes me wonder if he'll ever make it in the NHL.
I wish AHL games werent so overpriced, i'd give kadri a real look because his skill is great and thats easy to see but is he filling out more still? is he gaining in strength at all? how is the size of his lower body, does he have the frame to even handle more weight in order to be stronger on his skates.
I dont know what package i'd put together because nothign interests me on that team because they aren't willing to give up anything of value, who knows if theyre even willing to part with a protected 1st. Burke probably wont budge on anything and he'll end up losing out.
Youre right though, its basically down to those prospects they could part with and thats simply not enough. I dont want a bunch of third tier prospects really. Maybe if it was frattin, 1st, colborne and kadri.. haha but that'd empty them
just seems like there must be one other team who is willing to part with a better prospect + player or prospect + pick than Torontos pile of third tier prospects
I wasn't really saying there was anything wrong with your package or offer, i mean it does make sense given what they have, i was just debating about how frattin would fit in, truthfully im not big on torontos prospects for a player as good as luongo. im right there with y2k on this one
Yeah but we already have raymond playing on the bottom 6 who is more skilled right now and can fill in the top 6 better than Frattin would I believe. I think Raymonds speed helps kesler alot. Even though sometimes it doesn't look like it.
I dont know , just wouldn't be an ideal spot for a player like Frattin to flourish.
To be honest, i dont know too much about their prospects. I want to say i'd rather choose kadri because he could put in another year on our AHL team and he can get a shot when there is room. But to be honest, his strength makes me wonder if he'll ever make it in the NHL.
I wish AHL games werent so overpriced, i'd give kadri a real look because his skill is great and thats easy to see but is he filling out more still? is he gaining in strength at all? how is the size of his lower body, does he have the frame to even handle more weight in order to be stronger on his skates.
I dont know what package i'd put together because nothign interests me on that team because they aren't willing to give up anything of value, who knows if theyre even willing to part with a protected 1st. Burke probably wont budge on anything and he'll end up losing out.
Youre right though, its basically down to those prospects they could part with and thats simply not enough. I dont want a bunch of third tier prospects really. Maybe if it was frattin, 1st, colborne and kadri.. haha but that'd empty them
just seems like there must be one other team who is willing to part with a better prospect + player or prospect + pick than Torontos pile of third tier prospects
I wasn't really saying there was anything wrong with your package or offer, i mean it does make sense given what they have, i was just debating about how frattin would fit in, truthfully im not big on torontos prospects for a player as good as luongo. im right there with y2k on this one
I understand your viewpoint. Here are my thoughts:
- Y2K's opinion is hinged on Gardiner being returned. I don't think that is realistic, not if we expect a 1st rndr to come along with.
- Kadri, for all the bashing he gets, is still considered TO's top prospect. Replacing Percy with him increases the worth of the package, just based on perception alone. Although LiferLeafer and I agreed Kadri + Colborne + 1st would be fair, I just don't see Frattin being thrown into that as pure supplement, not with Kadri there instead of Percy. Not to mention, there are some that don't even value Kadri highly at all. So the opinions on his worth are polarized.
- As to TO's prospects, I like Percy. He plays a smart and patient game, and he can move the puck up the ice. There isn't a lot of offensive upside, but I like him just the same. Colborne is a complete wildcard to me. I can't figure out if he will fail utterly, or secure a 2nd line spot moving forward. High quality passer. That's one thing he does have going for him... But in the end, a project.
That package is just what I think VAN and TO will settle on. Gardiner and Kadri, the core building blocks for the Leafs stay in house. Colborne would have to unseat Bozak -- which I don't think happens this year. And Frattin is replaced by Ashton. Really, I don't think the Canucks will do much better.
I understand your viewpoint. Here are my thoughts:
- Y2K's opinion is hinged on Gardiner being returned. I don't think that is realistic, not if we expect a 1st rndr to come along with.
- Kadri, for all the bashing he gets, is still considered TO's top prospect. Replacing Percy with him increases the worth of the package, just based on perception alone. Although LiferLeafer and I agreed Kadri + Colborne + 1st would be fair, I just don't see Frattin being thrown into that as pure supplement, not with Kadri there instead of Percy. Not to mention, there are some that don't even value Kadri highly at all. So the opinions on his worth are polarized.
- As to TO's prospects, I like Percy. He plays a smart and patient game, and he can move the puck up the ice. There isn't a lot of offensive upside, but I like him just the same. Colborne is a complete wildcard to me. I can't figure out if he will fail utterly, or secure a 2nd line spot moving forward. High quality passer. That's one thing he does have going for him... But in the end, a project.
That package is just what I think VAN and TO will settle on. Gardiner and Kadri, the core building blocks for the Leafs stay in house. Colborne would have to unseat Bozak -- which I don't think happens this year. And Frattin is replaced by Ashton. Really, I don't think the Canucks will do much better.
If thats the case, find a new trade partner, though I do really think this team needs a top 10 pick next year. So if other teams can't give us something I am REALLY interested in, or a top 10 pick, then it might have to be toronto.
So youre saying they dont move kadri, reilly or gardiner but want a top goaltender in luongo. hmm sounds like Burke wants to lose his job
but yeah like i said, if i was a gm and other offers weren't great, i'd probably accept less to get that top 10 pick. but with how our d is shaping up, we're going to have edler on the trade block possibly. so i think my opinion would kind of change depending on what he has in mind for that or if he thinks that is even a possibility (he may come out and say edler is staying put)... but hard to imagine considering all our top D's are left side. hah
Ok, after thinking on this some more, I'd like to share my latest thoughts on a TO trade:
I'm guessing 4 Pieces come back from TO, and two pieces are going there. Part of this is derived from the fact that Gardiner will _not_ be available, and partly due to what Gillis will be looking for. So here's what I think the trade will be (not what I want it to be, but what I think is going to happen):
TO pieces:
- The 1st rounder (Unprotected): This is the main asset. When Gillis moves off Gardiner, and he will, he will leave no room to relinquish the 1st. One piece goes, not both.
- Matt Frattin: Just seems like a natural fit (as a "now" player) for this team and leaves TO with Kulemin, the far better player. They also have Ashton coming up to challenge for the same spot. Not a huge fan, but as the 4th piece, fine.
- Joe Colborne: The hope of getting a Bjugstad-like player has Colborne as a prime target IMO. Gillis wants this type of player. JC may fail miserably here, but what he _could_ represent is too enticing to pass up for Gillis. And he adds value to the deal for Burke. This also eliminates Bozak IMO, as they both would be challenging for that 3C position this year (along with Schroeder). Which also works for TO. They move a superfluous piece without changing their 1C position.
- Stuart Percy: Long-term right-shot D depth. Note, it has to be long-term. Right now, the D (NHL roster) has depth. Likewise, the AHL has Connauten and Sauve challenging for spots very soon. And so, Gillis won't want to be pushed into changing the "graduation rate" by getting a prospect closer to making it. He can afford to wait. It's why I think this eliminates Blacker and/or Holzer for me. Essentially, Percy is the positional "replacement" for Gardiner IMO. Edit: I really like this player, despite the low offensive upside, and I hope Gillis does too.
VAN pieces:
- Luongo: The man, the legend, the saviour of TO.
- Kellen Tochkin - Simply there to move a contract. Since Percy does not yet count against TO's contract limit, Tochkin evens up the two coming in with two going out. Edit: Could be Sauve too, just to add more value going back.
Summary: There you have it. TO keeps their best prospect (Kadri), their 1C (Bozak) and their current top6 RW (Kulemin). While they move secondary and tertiary pieces. The only affect on their current roster is Frattin. For VAN, Colborne and Frattin are the "now" pieces of the deal, while they can afford to wait on the future assets.
Agree/Disagree/Other?
So it would be 1st Frattin Colbourne and Percy
for
Luongo Tochkin and Sauve?
I don't like giving Percy....but i probably do this.
Luongo Tochkin and Sauve?
I don't like giving Percy....but i probably do this.
Sauve wouldn't be included if the Canucks could get away with it.
Essentially, the difference between what we had agreed to (1st + Kadri + Colborne) and what I think will occur (1st + Percy + Colborne + Frattin) is swapping Kadri for Frattin + Percy.
Now some think Kadri will be nothing but a career AHLer. Those people would see a jump to Frattin + Percy, instead of a downgrade from a high-end skillset to something much lower. That gap is just perception IMO.
I think the Canucks would favour Frattin over Kadri, if you can believe it. While I'm of the opposite mind.
The 1st would have to be included if Gardiner is not. That has been well discussed already.
Yeah but in what i proposed, thats 3 first round picks (#7, #16, #25). I think that makes up for there not being a top 10 pick. Though if we're talking top 3 pick, then that might be a different story
But yeah none of those players are sure bets and as a GM, you do not want to get rid of Luongo unless one is a pretty sure bet and less likely a top 10 pick doesn't make it to be a pretty impact player
But between those 3 prospects, hard to imagine 2 of the 3 dont make it and become pretty good nhl players. plus to be honest, im not 100 percent confident in the canucks drafting abilities.
I can say one thing for sure, I definitely dont want Frattin over kadri. and im not even super high on kadri. as you know, i just dont think theres a spot for Frattin yet
And Kadri's upside is DEFINITELY appealing
Last edited by pseudonymous01: 11-14-2012 at 07:32 AM.
Yeah but in what i proposed, thats 3 first round picks (#7, #16, #25). I think that makes up for there not being a top 10 pick.
I don't think any of those players makes up for a 1st rounder. Top 10 or otherwise. The 1st is currency. It may be used, or may be dealt at the deadline to get something more important.
Basically, I hope Gillis doesn't do a deal with TO without getting that 1st back. Bottom line.
Quote:
But yeah none of those players are sure bets and as a GM, you do not want to get rid of Luongo unless one is a pretty sure bet and less likely a top 10 pick doesn't make it to be a pretty impact player
But between those 3 prospects, hard to imagine 2 of the 3 dont make it and become pretty good nhl players. plus to be honest, im not 100 percent confident in the canucks drafting abilities.
I can say one thing for sure, I definitely dont want Frattin over kadri. and im not even super high on kadri. as you know, i just dont think theres a spot for him yet
I'm not confident in the drafting either, which is why I view that pick as currency, as explained above.
I want Kadri over Frattin too. But he would get killed here under AV. Not to mention that Burke will regard his value as a top prospect. So either he gets thrown in and unsettles the over all value in the package, or he is left out and Gillis can bring in a good D prospect along with Frattin... It all comes down to how highly Kadri is viewed by Burke.
This is too hard to talk about without knowing the number of the pick. heh i really dont think 5-10 hold nearly as much value and it doesn't interest me quite as much and i probably would rather have three recent first round picks like the 3 mentioned and an additional draft pick
i do care about the future and i think this team is good enough to win now without help if they put in the good and have the drive and stay relatively healthy. i didn't see ANY of that drive last year and adding in another player you get from that 1st round pick wouldn't help that
p.s - what do you do for work bleach? you have strange hours
This is too hard to talk about without knowing the number of the pick. heh i really dont think 5-10 hold nearly as much value and it doesn't interest me quite as much and i probably would rather have three recent first round picks like the 3 mentioned and an additional draft pick
i do care about the future and i think this team is good enough to win now without help if they put in the good and have the drive and stay relatively healthy. i didn't see ANY of that drive last year and adding in another player you get from that 1st round pick wouldn't help that
p.s - what do you do for work bleach? you have strange hours
Lol, I keep strange hours because I'm a bit of an insomniac. Happens from time to time. Work suffers (Comp. Systems Analyst - though switching fields soon). Yourself?
Yeah, tough to say what the value will be without knowing where the pick ends up. I'm guessing with Lu that TO has a very good shot at the playoffs, so that should tell you something.
